Vatican Blasts Trans Surgery, Surogacy, Etc

[Shadow Wolf]

Was this post following mine a response to it?
I wasn't quoted, so I'm not sure.
If so, does this mean agreement with surrogacy &
trans surgery being grave violations of human dignity?
How so?

This isn't the Pope telling the flock how to behave.
He seeks to impose it on all under the guise of
protecting rights. Instead, it's really about the
imposition on Catholic proscriptions on everyone.

Right to children or children’s rights? Surrogacy debate comes to a head in Rome

An international campaign to ban surrogacy has received a strong endorsement from the Vatican. A top official is calling for a broad-based alliance to stop the “commercialization of life” catering to wealthy would-be parents.

apnews.com

Excerpted....
ROME (AP) — An international campaign to ban surrogacy received a strong endorsement Friday from the Vatican, with a top official calling for a broad-based alliance to stop the “commercialization of life.”

A Vatican-affiliated university hosted a two-day conference promoting an international treaty to outlaw surrogacy, be it commercial arrangements or so-called altruistic ones. It’s based on the campaigners’ argument that the practice violates U.N. conventions protecting the rights of the child and surrogate mother.

Then they need to shut the Hell up about contraceptions because "prioritizing life" isn't really the goal it seems givin the opposition to surrogacy, they just want to make sure people do things in a Catholic approved way.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Aye, it functions as organized crime.
And yet....this Pope blasts transgenderism, surrogacy,
& trans surgery as "grave violations of human dignity".
Such foul hypocrisy & intent to oppress non-Catholics.
Changing one's sex doesn't harm others.
Surrogacy doesn't harm others.
These things benefit the parties involved.

While not letting gays adopt just because ewww, icky, gross, the prejucides of Sky Daddy must be prioritized is something that hurts kids who need a home.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I knew that, and I can find citations for it. What I was looking for are the efficiencies of the organizations. Way back, when charity rating organizations didn't exist, or weren't as known, I read an article about Christian organizations being especially ineffective. It seems that has changed, but I couldn't find a clear overview.

Probably not. When not I did social work I had to step in and tell a food bank it's actually none of their business what or if my client goes to church and had to remind them Jesus just freely gave without any questions or strings attached.

 

[LadyJane]

A great many Catholics were horrified by the accounts and left the church. My wife & I stopped going for two months, and there's a good chance we will leave permanently over some different issues since then. It's hard for my wife as she was brought up in the church, including going to parochial schools.

After growing up Anglican I understand the pervasiveness of ingrained moral beliefs. Participating in religious rituals that guarantee a place in heaven and prayers delivered with such repetition I can recite them by heart to this day. Despite the fact my heart isn't in it.

I could go on for days about the condescension and hypocrisy I've witnessed but arguing with believers is futile. Even when it's one of the least harmful versions of Christianity out there it still hijacks the brain and children never have a chance. They're at the mercy of the habits of their parents. And faith runs deep. Atheism is often viewed as something to be remedied.

You can sense the recoiling when talk of abortion and euthanasia and all the perverted behaviour of heathens arise. The audible gasps. To the extent they expose their feelings of moral superiority concerning the issues of human dignity without realizing in the process they compromise their own.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

but arguing with believers is futile.

I haven't found that to always be the case. My oldest neohew's girlfriend was being preyed upon by the JWs and one day she rushed in and asked me to go greet them. I ended up educating them so much about the Bible next timethey sent an Elder. He was friendly and wise enough to just chat for awhile, probably testing the waters because he didn't witness to me. And it became understood my brother's house was a very lost cause to them.
The idea it's futile is also unfortunate and scary in the sense that someone is saying throwing a lifeline is futile because so many of us apostates only got there because our former beliefs were significantly challenged amd it helped pull us out. Some of us it probably did literally save our lives.
The Christians see saving just one soul out of a million as something to celebrate. I see getting one in a million out as something to celebrate because then healing can begin.

 

[metis]

After growing up Anglican I understand the pervasiveness of ingrained moral beliefs. Participating in religious rituals that guarantee a place in heaven and prayers delivered with such repetition I can recite them by heart to this day. Despite the fact my heart isn't in it.

I could go on for days about the condescension and hypocrisy I've witnessed but arguing with believers is futile. Even when it's one of the least harmful versions of Christianity out there it still hijacks the brain and children never have a chance. They're at the mercy of the habits of their parents. And faith runs deep. Atheism is often viewed as something to be remedied.

You can sense the recoiling when talk of abortion and euthanasia and all the perverted behaviour of heathens arise. The audible gasps. To the extent they expose their feelings of moral superiority concerning the issues of human dignity without realizing in the process they compromise their own.

Generally speaking, I agree with you, as my relationships with the church I grew up in and also the church I have attended with my wife has always been on shaky ground. However, I have never had a self-imposed guilt trip for not attending services, nor have I ever chastised atheists and agnostics for their non-religious approach. To me, "blind faith" can be defined as "knowing" that which cannot be objectively known one way or the other, thus there's "blind believers" with some theists and atheists.

My main orientation is and always has been science, and I left the fundamentalist Protestant church I grew up in largely due to their complete opposition to the ToE, along with a couple other factors. For me to leave the Catholic church now wouldn't be difficult at all if it wasn't for the fact that my wife has been so linked to the church all her life, thus I don't want to do anything that may hurt her feelings. So, I'll have to see how this plays out.

Thanks for your input and take care.

 

[Kathryn]

I do believe that most trans and gender redefining surgeries performed on minors are grave violations of human dignity.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do believe that most trans and gender redefining surgeries performed on minors are grave violations of human dignity.

Does "most" mean that some are acceptable?
How do you feel about surrogacy?
Gay marriage?
Gays having children?

 

[Kathryn]

Does "most" mean that some are acceptable?
How do you feel about surrogacy?
Gay marriage?
Gays having children?

I don't care one way or the other about gay marriage, and I believe personally that the more people who love a child, the better. I err on the side of "most." And personally I wouldn't do surrogacy.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't care one way or the other about gay marriage, and I believe personally that the more people who love a child, the better. I err on the side of "most." And personally I wouldn't do surrogacy.

Would you want government to ban surrogacy, as the Pope calls for?

 

[LadyJane]

I haven't found that to always be the case. My oldest neohew's girlfriend was being preyed upon by the JWs and one day she rushed in and asked me to go greet them. I ended up educating them so much about the Bible next timethey sent an Elder. He was friendly and wise enough to just chat for awhile, probably testing the waters because he didn't witness to me. And it became understood my brother's house was a very lost cause to them.
The idea it's futile is also unfortunate and scary in the sense that someone is saying throwing a lifeline is futile because so many of us apostates only got there because our former beliefs were significantly challenged amd it helped pull us out. Some of us it probably did literally save our lives.
The Christians see saving just one soul out of a million as something to celebrate. I see getting one in a million out as something to celebrate because then healing can begin.

I see what you're saying. I've invited the odd JW in for a chat. Partly because I don't mind hearing anybody out but mostly because I think it's brave to knock on doors these days. For any reason. And I live in Canada in the middle of nowhere so arriving at my door takes a certain degree of effort. That in itself is impressive.

The fact they come around is a requirement not a choice and I don't want them to feel rejected. It's not them, it's their ideas I find nutty. And there's something delicate about attempting to convince someone out of deeply held beliefs. I don't want that kind of power. I guess the key is not to argue but to listen. Without leading them on. Just once I'd love to hear them say "No to the Watchtower, very well then, can I interest you in this vacuum cleaner?" Nobody sells vacuum cleaners door to door anymore.

I don't think anyone else could've frogmarched me out of my beliefs. I'd have resented them and dug in deeper. I see it all the time. It touches a nerve. The fear of what might happen if you admit the doubt you feel. But for some there comes a point there's just no way to honestly keep believing. A walk away from Jesus moment. (Not the cool rebellious Jesus. The magic baby Jesus.)

I think it's relatively easy to determine how far to take it with an individual. And back off when you see them sense the shifting beneath their feet. There's a quiet confidence in being on solid ground which is why atheists, for the most part, aren't obnoxious about it. Despite what they say. We don't have to be. And I want to be the example I never had. That shows there's nothing about that ground that poses any threat.

 

[Kathryn]

Would you want government to ban surrogacy, as the Pope calls for?

Like I said, there's a lot I disagree with when it comes to the current Pope. It won't happen anyway so you can relax.

 

[Revoltingest]

Like I said, there's a lot I disagree with when it comes to the current Pope. It won't happen anyway so you can relax.

Although I'm relaxed, I'm asking questions
designed to get this thread back on track.

 

[Kathryn]

Although I'm relaxed, I'm asking questions
designed to get this thread back on track.

I can't blame you for that.

 

[Heyo]

I do believe that most trans and gender redefining surgeries performed on minors are grave violations of human dignity.

That's why they (almost) don't happen.

 

[metis]

I do believe that most trans and gender redefining surgeries performed on minors are grave violations of human dignity.

Such surgeries are extremely rare [under 2% if my memory is correct], plus I believe it's best to have the families and their doctors make such personal decisions as these are.

 

[metis]

BTW, my wife shocked me last night as she told us out of the blue while celebrating Pesach that she's willing to leave the Catholic Church and consider rejoining the synagogue we used to belong to.

 

[Kathryn]

I agree. And I couldn't get it to "Reply" no matter what I did. But, Metis, it was in response to your post I believe two posts up.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

And I couldn't get it to "Reply" no matter what I did.

It hates us all.

 

[Revoltingest]

He's at it again....

Pope takes aim at guns and condoms at pro-birth conference

ROME (Reuters) -Pope Francis criticised the weapons and contraceptive industries on Friday, accusing them of destroying or preventing life in his speech at a conference on the demographic crisis gripping Italy and Europe. Europe's fertility rate has been stuck around 1.5 births per woman for...

www.yahoo.com

S African penguins are going extinct,
but the Pope thinks Earth needs more
people....who can't defend themselves.

If he were really "pro life", he'd value
the diversity of life in the natural world.
Instead his policies are designed to
destroy it.