• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Vedic Period, Pre-Vedic Period and Post-Vedic Period

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Right, but this evidence seems rather removed from the claim that the Aryans originated in the far North somewhere in Siberia.
Of course, the debate has not ended. The European researchers place the origins in Kurgan or Anatolia, Hindu nationalists place the origins in India, and BG Tilak places it in far North. We have our proofs from Vedas and Zoroastrian Avesta. I follow Tilak's line. The evidence is:

1. Mention of sun remaining continuously in the sky for seven months.
2. Mention of a dawn which lasted one month.
3. Mention of a night which lasted from two to three months.
4. Mention of priests completing their sacrificial cycle in nine or ten months.

For more information you are welcome to read Tilak's 'Arctic Home in Vedas' available at https://archive.org/details/TheArcticHomeInTheVedas. The PDF can be read or downloaded for free.

Also, the areas in Poland are not far from the Arctic Circle (see the third image). Corded ware culture is supposed to have been Indo-European. Archaeological evidence has been found in Minusinsk, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russia (shown in the third image as a small violet circle North of Gobi desert), which is about 1,600 kms from Arctic circle. Not a big distance to cover in a few thousand years.

220px-Map_Corded_Ware_culture-en.svg.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture
 
Last edited:

The_Fisher_King

Trying to bring myself ever closer to Allah
Premium Member
Of course, the debate has not ended. The European researchers place the origins in Kurgan or Anatolia, Hindu nationalists place the origins in India, and BG Tilak places it in far North. We have our proofs from Vedas and Zoroastrian Avesta. I follow Tilak's line. The evidence is:

1. Mention of sun remaining continuously in the sky for seven months.
2. Mention of a dawn which lasted one month.
3. Mention of a night which lasted from two to three months.
4. Mention of priests completing their sacrificial cycle in nine or ten months.

For more information you are welcome to read Tilak's 'Arctic Home in Vedas' available at https://archive.org/details/TheArcticHomeInTheVedas. The PDF can be read or downloaded for free..

That is an interesting line of reasoning to be sure!
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Vedas, i.e., religious poetry of the Aryan people goes back to period before ice-age, perhaps 20,000 years. They are like poems of the Australian aboriginals and American Indians. RigVeda has a continuous record of religious history since 6-4,000 BC, fragmentary at first but in sharper focus as the time went by. So this can be considered the Vedic period. The additions to RigVeda, SamaVeda, and YajurVeda may have stopped some time around 1,500 BC. So that would be post-Vedic period. The Vedic period was the time when the old poems were given the shape of Samhitas. Some of the Upanishads belong to this older period, others were probably written in the post-Vedic period. By the end of Vedic period, Aryans were in India.
It is a Religious Forum so our main focus is religious creeds/tenets of a people , not on the other historical perspective whatever.
Please, therefore, one should quote, for anything mentioned by one, from the Veda/Rigveda in terms of post#1 :
"Can one ascertain the above periods from the Vedas and the creeds/tenets of the people mentioned in Veda? Please".
What were the creeds of people who believed and followed Veda/Yajurveda in the Vedic Period? Whatever time-scale it had.
Thanks and regards.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"Can one ascertain the above periods from the Vedas and the creeds/tenets of the people mentioned in Veda? What were the creeds of people who believed and followed Veda/Yajurveda in the Vedic Period?
I am doing just that. It is getting late in the night, so excuse me if I am not able to cover all periods today, but I will certainly do it tomorrow. I do not know how much of this will you be able to understand. The following shows the oldest mentioned period of the Vedas - 6,000 BC:

“There are, however, some indications about the oldest position of Punarvasu (Castor and Pollux) preserved in the sacrificial literature. The presiding deity of Punarvasu is Aditi (for the Aryans Mother of Suns, Adityas), and we are told in the Aitareya Brahmana i.7, and the Taittiriya Samhita 1. 5.1, that Aditi has been blessed with a boon that all sacrifices must commence and end with her. The story begins with the statement that the Sacrifice (Yajna, the mysterious sacrificial personage) went away from the gods. The gods were then unable to perform any further ceremonies, and did not know where it (the sacrifice) had gone to; and it was Aditi who helped them, in this state, to find out the proper commencement of the sacrifice. This clearly means, if it can mean anything, that before this time sacrifices were performed at random, but it was at this time resolved - and fixed to commence them from Aditi. Aditi was thus the oldest and the first commencement of the sacrifice or the year. In the Vajasaneyi Samhita 4.19, Aditi is said to be ‘ubhaya-shirshni’ (double-headed) and the commentators interpret it to mean that the two termini of the sacrifices*, which began and ended with Aditi, are the two heads here alluded to.”

* like 12 pm on December 31 – the end of the old year and the beginning of the new.
BG Tilak, "Orion or the Researches into the Antiquity of the Vedas"
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Sorry, one did not quote from Veda/Yajurveda.
BG Tilak did not write Veda/Yajurveda. Did he? Please
Regards
 

arcanum

Active Member
Aryans were a group of herders and nomadic people who (according to BG Tilak's theory) lived in far-North somewhere in Siberia and in the ice-age traveled South and later dispersed to many countries spreading from Ireland to Western China.No. That is not correct. Aryan people came to India and merged/were assimilated by the indigenous population. What resulted was a mix of both the cultures and that is Hinduism. Hinduism cannot be Vedic only.

There are clear indications of the time periods.
I thought they originated in Persia not Siberia?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Certainly not. Aryans came to Iran as the Medes. They made Iran Aryan. The Medes unified Iran as a nation and established the first empire in 625 BC under the third Median king, Cyaxares (Uvakshatra - Kshatra indicates the warriors in Aryan societies).

"The Medes (Old Persian Māda-, Ancient Greek: Μῆδοι, Hebrew: מָדַי) were an ancient Iranian people who lived in an area known as Media (northwestern Iran) and who spoke the Median language. They mainly inhabited the mountainous area of northwestern Iran and the northeastern and eastern region of Mesopotamia and located in the Kermanshah-Hamadan (Ecbatana) region. Their arrival in the region is associated with the first wave of migrating Iranian peoples into Iran from the Late Bronze Age collapse from around 1000 BC to around 900 BC."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes
 
Last edited:

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
In this post, I am giving the proof that the Aryans began their year when the sun rose on the day of vernal equinox in the asterism of Orion. That period corresponds to somewhere around 4,000 BC:

It may be noticed, however, that the non-Aryan races do not connect the idea of time, e.g., of the year and the seasons, with these beliefs, while it is the chief characteristic of the Aryan legends. We are, for instance, told that the dog (Dog Star - Sirius) commenced the year (RigVeda i.161.13) and that the Devayana (first half of the year) comprised the three seasons of Vasanta (Spring), Grishma (Summer) and Varsha ( Rains) - Shatapatha Brahmana ii.1.3.l. It is this feature of the Aryan legends that is most important for the purpose of our inquiry, while the coincidence, above pointed out, confirms, in a remarkable way, the genesis of the Aryan legends here proposed. The chief elements in the traditions of the three Aryan nations (European-Greek/Balkan, Iran and India) may thus be satisfactorily explained. It may, however, be contended that the two dogs of Yama spoken of in the RigVeda may not be the same as the Avesta dogs at the Bridge. A closer examination of the several passages in the RigVeda will, however, dispel such doubts. In the Vendidad xiii.9, the dogs are called 'peshupana', or those that guard the way to the region of death. The Avesta dog is 'chathru-chashmen' (Vendidad viii.16), while the Vedic dogs are described as 'chatur-akshau' (RigVeda x.34.11), both of which expressions mean 'four-eyed'.

The dogs in the Avesta and the Rigveda, however, differ in color. In Vendidad viii. 16 the dogs are said to be 'zairitem' or 'spaetem', zain (yellow or white) with yellow ears; while the dogs of Yama are said to be 'shabalau', spotted or variegated. But the difference is neither very material, nor such as cannot be accounted for. In the Rigveda we can trace the yellow color of the Avesta dogs. The antelope of the sun in RigVeda x.86.3 is said to be 'harita' or yellow, the 'zairitem' of the Avesta, and if we suppose this antelope to be no other than that represented by Orion, as the sun commenced the year at that point, we need not be surprised if the dogs in the Avesta are described as yellow, especially when in the AtharvaVeda viii.1.9. we find the two messenger dogs of Yama named as Shyama and Shabala, thus noting probably a difference in colour. The AtharvaVeda iv.20.7 mentions a four-eyed she-dog*, while in the Shatapatha Brahmana xiii.1.3.7 the adjective is applied to a dog; and the same animal is evidently intended in both places.

In the Zoroastrian scriptures the dogs at the Chinvat Bridge are sometimes spoken of in singular (Vendidad viii.16) and sometimes, as in RigVeda x.14.11. in dual (Vendidad xiii.9). This shows that we might disregard gender and number in the description of these dogs; and we are thus led to suppose that Sarama (a she-dog* guarding the gates of heaven) in the RigVeda is again to be identified with the dogs that watch the gates of heaven. There is an, incident in Sarama story which confirms the identification I have proposed. The Panis (tribes inimical to Aryans) tried to coax Sarama by offering her milk which she drank. On her return she denied having seen the cows of lndra, who thereupon kicked her and she vomited the milk. Now the mention of milk at once suggests the idea that it must be the milk in the galaxy on each side of which the two dogs are stationed. In RigVeda iv.57.5 'Shunasirau' are invoked in order that they may pour down upon the earth the milk, which they 'make in heaven'.

Prof, Max Miiller records a suggestion that 'Shunasirau', here spoken of, may be a very old name for the Dog-star, and with its derivative 'Sairya' would give us the etymon of 'Seirios'. In RigVeda vii.55.2 the Vastoshpati, 'the guardian of the house' in the form of a dog, is invoked and described as bright and red Sarameya (son of Sarama) on whose jaws spears seem to glitter, a description which answers so well with the appearance of the star Sirius (Dog Star), that with what has been said above we may at once identify the Sarameya with the Dog Star. I may here refer to the Shatapatha Brahmana ii.1.2.9, what has been said above we may at once identify the Sarameya with the Dog-star. I may here refer to the Shatapatha Brahrnana ii.1.2.9, where speaking of Mrigashiras, the Prajapati's body pierced by Rudra is described as his 'vastu'. May not 'Vastoshpati' be regarded as guardian, of the house? If so, it may be a further proof that 'Vastoshpati' represents the star Sirius, which, as it were, guards the head of Prajapati in the form of Orion or the antelope's head. But, apart from this suggestion, I would finally quote Rig.i.161.13, where it is expressly stated that "the dog awakened" the Ribhus, the genii of the seasons, at the "end of the year".
* The forum does not allow me to use the correct word.
BG Tilak, "Orion or the Researches into the Antiquity of the Vedas"
 
Last edited:

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
These people were known with their tribal names. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Rigvedic_tribes mentions 33 Aryan tribes, perhaps there were more. Out of these, five tribes (known as Pancha-janas) are mentioned specially: Yadus, Turvasas, Anus, Druhyus and Purus.
https://books.google.co.in/books?id...ChMQ6AEIKTAD#v=onepage&q=pancha-janas&f=false

Three names, out of the 33 can be easily identified: Paktha (modern Pashtoons), Panis (Iranian Parni?)* and Parsu (Parśu - modern Iranians carry this name)
* "The Parni (Ancient Greek: Parnoi) or Aparni were an east Iranian people of the Hari-Rud (Tejen) River valley, southeast of the Caspian Sea. The Parni were one of the three tribes of the Dahae confederacy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parni

Hari-Rud (Tejen River) passes through Herat and forms the border between Afghanistan and Turkmenistan. In Aryan/Iranian times, it was known as Sarayu or Haroyu.
220px-Jam_Qasr_Zarafshan.jpg
The Minaret of Jam by the Hari-Rud, second highest ancient minaret in the world.

"Yuvāṃ narā paśyamānāsa āpyaṃ prācā gavyantaḥ pṛithuparśavo yayuḥ l
dāsā ca vṛitrā hatam āryāṇi ca Sudāsam IndrāVaruṇa avasāvatam ll

LOOKING to you and your alliance, O you Men, armed with broad axes they went forward, fain for spoil.
You smote and slew his Dāsa and his Āryan enemies, and helped Sudās with favor, Indra-Varuṇa.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv07083.htm, Verse 1

This is the only battle mentioned in RigVeda and it happened somewhere on the banks of River Ravi, then known as 'Parushni'. Lahore is situated on the banks of Ravi. It is a mjor river of Panjab.

Ravi.jpg
 
Last edited:

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Vedic Period is a Pre-Historic period so to speak about that period in definite terms is a mere conjecture. Isn't it correct? Please
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
  1. To quote from BG Tilak , a politician, as if he was an eye-witness of the pre-history period is doing politics with history. "Orion or the Researches into the Antiquity of the Vedas" is not a source of history for the pre-history period. Is it? Please
  2. To start account of the events from the last ice-age as if the only survivors from the ice-age were the Aryans is not reasonable. All humans that live in whatever part of the world, if ice-age was a world-wide phenomenon, are survivors from the ice-age, there is no specific specialty for that about the Aryans. Is it? Please
  3. Veda was compiled before Vedic believers' entry into the Indian region, though committed to writing later and with some or much additions. Is it true? Please
  4. There is a continuous mention of wars/battles/foes/warriors/, in the beginning, in the middle and also in the end of the Veda but our friend mentions only one battle and that only when they "the Aryans" had already entered the Indian region at the banks of river Ravi in Panjab.
  5. Why enter into the Indian region? Was it a noble (or an Ignoble) deed to enter the Indian region and have fighting with the locals and still have the label "Aryan" intact which we are told means "noble"? Please elaborate. Will one? Please
Anybody, please
Regards
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Vedic Period is a Pre-Historic period so to speak about that period in definite terms is a mere conjecture. Isn't it correct? Please
Regards

No it isn't correct, as usual. The Vedic Period is well within the historical period, not prehistory. The end of the prehistoric period is the Chalcolithic,
about 3700 BCE. The Sumerians invented cuneiform writing about then and began keeping written records. The Vedic Period was about 1500 BCE to  500 BCE.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Why enter into the Indian region? Was it a noble (or an Ignoble) deed to enter the Indian region and have fighting with the locals and still have the label "Aryan" intact which we are told means "noble"? Please elaborate.
Because life was easy here. The physical conditions were not harsh as in Afghanistan or Central Asia. Then there were scythian tribes pushing Aryans south. There was no fight with the locals. They migrated peacefully. And these few people later merged into Hinduism and started worshiping the local Gods. Why would there be a war. Perhaps, I am also of a mixed Aryan-local descent, and I am a Hindu. My people, the 'Kambojas', lived around Kabul or North-East of it. India with its huge population does not even notice the entry of a few hundred thousand. Even in the present times, tens of millions Bangladeshis have entered India (perhaps some 20 or 30 million). Has it made any difference to us?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The Vedic Period was about 1500 BCE to  500 BCE.
OK, Jai. This is what I get from Wikipedia - "At the height of its power, during the 14th century BC, Mitanni had outposts centered on its capital, Washukanni, whose location has been determined by archaeologists to be on the headwaters of the Khabur River. .. The Mitanni dynasty ruled over the northern Euphrates-Tigris region between c. 1475 and c. 1275 BCE. While the Mitanni kings were Indo-Iranians, .." They worshiped Mitra, Varuna, Indra, Nasatya (Ashwinis), etc. If they were a kingdom/Empire around 1500 BC, then certainly, their culture was older than that. The Western Indologists are wrong here.

250px-Near_East_1400_BCE.png
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
The Western Indologists are wrong here.

Well, aren't they always? ;) But what I'm getting at is that the Vedic Period is certainly not "prehistoric" as people think of prehistoric... Paleolithic, Neolithic, before the advent of writing. Even if the Vedas were not written down until the 13th - 15th millennia BCE, that means that the culture was older, yes, but not as old as one is claiming. ;)
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Btw, completely in the realm of science-fantasy (not even fiction, but fantasy :D) I would love to see some things from around that time:
  • The Proto-Indo-Europeans, their culture and language.
  • The Indus Valley Civilization, and put to rest what dad-gum language they did speak.
  • Even further back, just how in blue blazes India did get populated.
These are questions that as a nerd I need answered, dagnabbit!
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
Btw, completely in the realm of science-fantasy (not even fiction, but fantasy :D) I would love to see some things from around that time:

I have a similar wishlist too -

1. What did the Sphinx originally look like? Who built it, when and why? Same questions for the Great Pyramid.
2. What was the language of IVC and how close or different was their religion from present day Hinduism?
3. The time when Rama and Krishna were attached to Vishnu
4. The original form of the Mahabharata (the 8000 verse version) and its time of authorship
5. The original form of the Puranas and the time when Puranas were formalized into the set of 18
6. The origins of Sankhya

I have more, but these will do.
 
Top