Vegetarianism. How do you look at it ?

[Secret Chief]

Sapiens and Homo Deus

I thought Sapiens was an excellent run through our history but Homo Deus massively disappointed me - it seemed not much more than a lot of crystal ball gazing. What did you think?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Carnivores have short digestive tracts because they don't need anything longer. With no cell walls to break down or cellulose to process, digestion of meat is pretty quick and easy.

Hmm... this seems to be at odds with many sources I can find on the subject with a few simple internet searches.

From one of the top returns searching "digestion of meat easier than vegetation":

Animal calories, which will always have higher amounts of fat than fruits, vegetables, and grains, take longer to digest, as fat molecules are more complex than carbs.

Not sure how legitimate the site is/was (Purple Carrot) I looked a little further. In an article on everydayhealth.com, supposedly "debunking" digestion myths, they had this to say:

while it's true that fat can slow the digestive process, meat and vegetables take about the same amount of time to get through your digestive tract

Which, quite honestly, seemed a little suspect if fat can slow the digestive process. Perhaps it isn't always the case? I am not quite sure.

On a site livestrong.com, there was this bit:

Many factors contribute to digestion rate and can vary individually depending on what you've eaten. Proteins in meat and fish can take as long as two days to fully digest, while fruits and vegetables may move through your system in less than a day due to the higher fiber content.

And also this:

Since vegetarians consume more fiber than meat-eaters, likely because plant-based foods make up a greater part of the vegetarian diet. Plant foods are the only good sources of fiber, which helps move food through your intestines at a more rapid rate. The Canadian Society of Intestinal Research says that vegetarians tend to have faster bowel transit times and more frequent bowel movements than omnivores and the difference in transit times can be attributed to the amount of fiber in the diet. According to the USDA Dietary Reference Intake table, you need 25 to 30 grams of fiber daily. Any less may cause slower transit times, especially with the digestion of meat in the human digestive system.

And this:

Another reason for a delay in transit time experienced by meat eaters relative to vegetarians may have to do with the amount of fat consumed. Animal products such as meat, dairy and eggs typically contain higher amounts of fats than fruits, vegetables and grains. Fats takes more time, effort and extra specific enzymes to be broken down and digested when compared to protein or carbohydrates, according to University of Washington. Due to the insolubility of fats they tend to rise and float in the stomach so are acted upon last, which tends to slow digestion.

So, least contradictory to your point, at least one of these sites states the idea that meats and vegetation take the same amount of time to move through the system.

There did, however, seem to be a lot of other ideas on places like "answers.com" (where users answer other users questions that support the thrust of your post. Someone asked "Why is meat easier to digest than plants?" and the top answer:

Humans' storage form of energy is a six carbon sugar called glucose. Our cells can easily break glucose down into ATP, the main energy that powers our cells. Plants' storage form of energy is starch, which we can also break down, however you eat the whole plant, not just its starch, and plants also contain cellulose, a structual carbohydrate that your body cannot breakdown into ATP. While starch can be converted to glucose, it requires more energy to do so, and cellulose cannot be converted at all. So in short, your body breaks down meat more easily because it's energy is already stored in a form which your body can process most easily.

And looking at another site flips it back again food.ndtv.com:

Fats and proteins do take time to digest as compared to others. According to the book Diet & Nutrition, A Holistic Approach by Rudolph Ballentine, while protein rich food may require a considerable time to digest in the stomach and small intestine, it is fat that slows the digestion process most. Fats and oils are relatively complex molecules that delay the emptying of the stomach more than any other food. Animal products including meat, dairy and eggs ideally contain higher amounts of fats that any fruit or vegetable.

In the end, I am not even sure which moves "faster" through the system. Though this is hardly even relevant to the original point I made - which is the idea that it is probably best not to have meat lying around in your system for long periods of time, and that it is very likely less of a problem to have vegetation sitting for that SAME amount of time. Meat and vegetation could move through your digestive system at the exact same rate, but it wouldn't affect the relative levels of toxicity that either produces during a particular portion of time. The short digestive tract of carnivores, and long, complicated digestive tract(s) of herbivores is a physical adaptation. And with the amount of time taken for both meat and vegetation to get through the system being what appears to be more or less equal, that would point to the impetus toward survival-supporting adaptations being for a different reason entirely than that "meat is easier to digest."

All I know for certain is this - back when I used to be an omnivore, consuming a "normal" amount of meat for an American (which is a lot, for those that aren't aware), my farts stank terribly, and were "thick" in a way that I am sure some of you will understand. Once I went vegan/vegetarian... next to nothing, and very often zero smell to them whatsoever. I can freely let fly in public without worrying that someone is going to walk into a death bomb in a few seconds. No joke, no exaggeration. The change corresponds precisely to my switching to a vegetation-based diet. The gasses given off by my gut-bacteria's metabolic processes was loaded with nastiness previously (if my sense of smell is any sort of judge)... and now it at least appears to be incredibly clean.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I thought Sapiens was an excellent run through our history but Homo Deus massively disappointed me - it seemed not much more than a lot of crystal ball gazing. What did you think?

Likewise. I have to say, the first half of Sapiens counts as among the best things that I have EVER read. I constantly had my perspective radically changed -- it was exhilarating.

 

[Secret Chief]

I've not discussed this at great length.... but my meat-eating friends have occasionally alluded to how infrequently they need to go to the loo. It would worry the hell out of me.

 

[Secret Chief]

Likewise. I have to say, the first half of Sapiens counts as among the best things that I have EVER read. I constantly had my perspective radically changed -- it was exhilarating.

Quite. Goes well as a companion to Guns Germs Steel I think.

 

[JustGeorge]

My ex ate meat and that was a pain - two meal preps at meal times. She had to go
Some people discover a health improvement "accidentally." I have a friend who has suffered from IBS all her adult life. She tried all sorts of ways to get rid of it or at least ameliorate the symptoms with no real success. Recently she had no dairy products for about a fortnight (not planned - it was a fridge/moving house issue) and she was so improved that she's swapped over permanently to plant milk and spreads.

My husband was a meat eater when we married. I never bothered him about changing his ways, though I would not cook meat. We were both comfortable with this. However, after a few years, chicken started making him throw up. And then (he works at a diner), the condition the beef came in began to disturb him. When a slab came in full of bullets, he was done. He held onto fish for awhile, but he doesn't like eating it anymore.

He wasn't fully vegetarian when our first son was born, but didn't want him eating meat. By the time our second was born, he wasn't eating meat anymore(so naturally our second doesn't, either). My oldest is from a previous relationship, and does eat meat, but we don't buy it in our home. He isn't bothered by that, though. He doesn't always eat it, even when he has a chance; think he's just used to being without.

 

[Vinayaka]

When reading this discussion, I like to think of nutrition outside of the discussion. Nutrition has a lot more to do with variety than it does with being vegetarian or carnivorous. Either side can have poor nutrition. An easy search will tell you scurvy is still around, as is protein deficiency, and rickets. So arguing for or against either side doesn't really tell the whole story on nutrition.

I was surprised that 'Where do you get your protein?" didn't come up in the portions of the thread Ive seen. That's a sign that that particular myth is easing. Having been accused of lying about my diet (Chap insisted I couldn't be alive if I was a vegetarian) at one time, it's heartening to see less misconception. There is also a greater awareness of the diversity of diet.

 

[Secret Chief]

I was surprised that 'Where do you get your protein?" didn't come up in the portions of the thread Ive seen. That's a sign that that particular myth is easing. Having been accused of lying about my diet (Chap insisted I couldn't be alive if I was a vegetarian) at one time, it's heartening to see less misconception. There is also a greater awareness of the diversity of diet.

Yes, I think that one is dead now. There's been plenty of stories in the last few years of top sports people and body builders who follow a vegan diet.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, I think that one is dead now. There's been plenty of stories in the last few years of top sports people and body builders who follow a vegan diet.

I think its here to stay this time. (There was a mini veggie fad blip in late 60s, early 70s) Still kind of hard to find a good meal on the road in some places though.

 

[Valjean]

I have a different view (purely hypothetical). Personally, I do believe that the earth was watered by a mist that protected the earth from the damaging portion of the light that comes from the sun.

During that time, meat requirement was nil. In the beginning as it will be in the end the lamb will sleep with the lion.

In the advent of the formation of clouds where radiation could penetrate, it affected the body to the need of meat.

Purely hypothetical

Purely imaginary, I'd say.

What was this 'protective mist'. Where did you get this idea?
No clouds? No Van Allen belt? A radically different anatomy, physiology and metabolism, then a sudden astronomical, meteorological and biological upheaval?
There is no evidence for any of this; no mechanism I can think of, nor any reason to suppose such an extraordinary transformation might happen.

 

[JustGeorge]

I think its here to stay this time. (There was a mini veggie fad blip in late 60s, early 70s) Still kind of hard to find a good meal on the road in some places though.

My husband has a phobia of this... he worries that when we travel, he might have to get a salad somewhere. The idea terrifies him.

I tell him not to worry. There will always be a gas station somewhere selling pop and candy.

 

[Vinayaka]

My husband has a phobia of this... he worries that when we travel, he might have to get a salad somewhere. The idea terrifies him.

I tell him not to worry. There will always be a gas station somewhere selling pop and candy.

That's funny. I actually looked ahead, on google maps, for vegetarian restaurants. We pack some, and the grocery stores are our go-to restaurants. A lot of the US Interstate truck stops have Indian stuff, now thanks to the Sikhs in trucking.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Yes i have heard, my daughter bombards us all with them. However, besides taste there are many other factors. Various health benefits that vegetarians tend to poopoo.

My eldest daughter is vegi, i cook both meat and meat free. However a couple of times a week we all eat meat free. Sure vegetarians can enjoy their food, but i do not enjoy it as much a a meal with meat.

Just curious, how much cooking and eating out do you do each (others can answer as well), and then out of the cooking and eating out, how much ordered by each member would you think has meat or no meat? Where are you/where are you from also or your background?

I am wondering about all this because of the statistics I've read about meat consumption as well as home cooking vs food from outside or quick and easy microwave meals and stuff, and I wanted some real life versions and examples or anecdotal type of evidences from people's own life stories to get an idea.

These days I eat mostly home cooked meals and very few of those meals have any meat in them because of the expense of meat and pressure about cooking it fast due to storage issues or it getting bad or smelly (I know I can freeze too but don't have much freezer space), and the two meats (I'd like to know what specific meats you eat most to least), are usually chicken and beef and then sometimes much more rarely fish.

All of it is very rare though, and chicken would be most likely probably in some kind of easy to make form rather than uncooked fillets, but the beef might be something in a stew primarily but pretty darn rarely, and then fish is usually from outside like fish and chips or something.

I rarely eat out anymore or order from outside, but it used to be more common maybe, but again due to expenses and even the higher quality or better taste of food at home, I probably even prefer food at home, except the cooking processes and delays sometimes, especially with more advanced recipes.

When I do order from outside though, its quite often meat inclusive, like pizzas with beef toppings or chicken toppings (at least some of them) and chicken sandwiches or fish sandwiches or something. In some way, it might almost seem like a waste of money to get something just as expensive which doesn't have meat, based on calculating in one's mind the prices involved of the ingredients, so that something without meat might seem like a bit of a rip off from a restaurant charging the same for it to not have meat.

Also, what kind of cuisine do you tend to make and tend to like and tend to go out for or order out for?

I think at home its mostly whatever and international, but maybe a lot of pastas and Italian stuff, maybe a lot of stews and soups like lentil stuff and chili so maybe that is all Southern style cooking, quite a bit of Mexican stuff too maybe, so maybe kind of Tex-Mex stuff, and made up fusion things, also things like Asian style soy sauce noodles.

When I order out, I like all kinds of things, but burgers and sandwiches like fried chicken sandwiches or fried fish sandwiches can seem like a lot of hassle to make and put together with all the various ingredients and processes so those are more convenient seeming sometimes to get from outside, also big pizzas (though pizzas are made at home and much tastier even) with lots of ingredients, and foods with ingredients I don't keep or have much of or are hard to find, namely Indian food, which I like a lot if one find's a good place, and everything similar to it so Pakistani, Afghani, all that, maybe even Thai (though going to Thai places is extremely rare). Chinese food also, some is made here, but other things seem more difficult to make or put together, I've had this Asian recipe I've wanted to make and have the ingredients for but its been a big hassle getting to it (some kind of sweet walnut shrimp thing).

 

[Valjean]

Eating meat with moderation is not bad.
Proteins are necessary bricks for the human body.
Vegetarians usually eat lots of proteins (eggs, cheese), usually.
I am afraid that Veganism or Fructarianism imply a very worrying shortage of proteins.
This is just my personal opinion ...of course.

Protein is rarely a problem. We get way more than we need with a typical western diet, often toxic amounts. I'd point out that most of the large mammals -- elephants, ungulates, &c, are vegetarian, and seem to get plenty of protein.

Interesting fact: I've heard similar argument is made for calcium. There's a passage from, I think, Walden, where Thoreau recalls a conversation with a neighbor about vegetarianism. The neighbor maintained that such a diet would furnish little to make bones -- all the while toiling behind his ox who, with vegetable-made bones, slowly pulled his plow along. This was nearly 200 years ago.

 

[Valjean]

I don't think there is much worse than the smell of a vegetarian fart.

I've been vegetarian for 50 years. So are many of my friends. I haven't noticed any increased farting, nor do mine usually have any odor.

 

[Valjean]

Thanks for sharing, good video


I found all 3 speakers interesting:
The woman gave more details about ayurvedic perspective on diet; how it helps spiritual growth
The white beard man gave an interesting view why we should eat simple food, as it integrates better in our system
The black beard man gave a good point that vegetarian food digests better due to long digestive track; meat rots quicker leading to cancer++

Interesting though they may be, these aren't facts. They're religious doctrine.

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

Plants are keen on protecting themselves, certainly. Hence the poisons and thorns and sometimes just the height that the most nutrient bits develop - all things geared toward protecting its own. However, there are also those plants who purposefully offer up their wares in order to have the eaten portions run through a nice, nutrient-rich digestional tract before being crapped out far away from the parent plant - that is actually a benefit to those plants that have adapted to function this way. Just Google "What plants use animals to disperse their seeds?" Guava and figs are some examples.

Not only this, but when we humans plant 50,000 members of the plant's species, and then water and fertilize those plants before ultimately harvesting, collecting seed, and then doing the process over again - we've effectively helped 50,000 plants (thousands of times over, of course) live their "best lives" and reproduce. A plant can't move, can't do other things. So if we've provided for all their needs and they are "comfortable" (haha), then we've basically just helped them be exactly what they were striving (sort of) to be considering their place in overall ecology.

This is obviously a non-issue if you don't breed, raise and kill the animal in the first place.

From this perspective though, everything is a "destroyer by nature". Even plants have methods of fighting off bacteria, or killing animals with poisons/toxicity. It is just the nature of things to absorb nutrients gathered by other things. To get beneficial movement of life-sustaining energies to yourself, you basically have to be in the business of taking it from something else. Plants have the only setup that requires less borrowing. They do their borrowing from the sun and minerals in the soil. The sun is going to be outputting that energy anyway, but the soil only contains the breadth of nutrients it does because other plants and animals before it died and were broken up into small, consumable bits by bacteria.

I believe it a key understanding to know that if there were an animal more capable than humans, and it could feed on humans, that you would oppose such an animal. And in that understanding should be a corollary thought that, if the animals we make subservient to us, and raise for slaughter were capable of placing blame on us, and understanding our part in their horrible fates, that they would oppose us also, and for extremely good reasons. Reasons that we would be remiss to simply dismiss or play down. In factory farming situations, we take their freedom, we take their enjoyment of life, and then we kill them. If the more free animals out in the farms and fields could also contemplate this horrid fate of their brethren, would they also not be as concerned as we would be if we knew this sort of thing were happening to other humans? Is their lack of capability to think on these abstract terms justification for putting certain individuals of various species into situations of great suffering and anguish?

There is evidence to suggest that over-consumption of meat does, indeed, cause negative health consequences. For example, you can be sure that I, a vegetarian, will never develop what they call "gout" - a condition caused by an excess of uric acid in the body. It is pretty funny when you look up the condition, because they like to state things in very "neutral" terms, like "The body makes uric acid when it breaks down purines, which are found in your body and the foods you eat." Just "foods," you see? But when you do a little more digging, you are ultimately presented with lists of what not to eat to stave off, or rid yourself of gout:

• Beer and grain liquors (like vodka and whiskey)
• Red meat, lamb, and pork.
• Organ meats, such as liver, kidneys, and glandular meats like the thymus or pancreas (you may hear them called sweetbreads)
• Seafood, especially shellfish like shrimp, lobster, mussels, anchovies, and sardines.

Besides the alcohol mention, it's meat, meat, meat. Look up conditions or diseases associated with eating too many vegetables, and you'll likely come across some very obvious suspects - like extreme over-eating of vegetables overloading your system with too much roughage, causing constipation, or relying too heavily on common vegetation alone causing you to miss out on other key nutrients. While the list of things that have been linked to long-term meat consumption are things like cancer, diabetes, heart disease. There's really no comparison.

The numbers do show a statistically significant link between having a floor job in the business of factory-farming and being more violent or mentally compromised in your daily life.

Besides what I mentioned above about leading plants to "live their best lives", there is also the idea that many plants don't need to die in order to harvest their nutrient bounty. There is an apple orchard not too far from where I live that has what look like ancient apple trees that are picked from every single year. Those apples would simply fall to the ground otherwise, so it is no "pain" to the apple tree to take its fruit and cart it off somewhere.

I don't obsess, and rather enjoy a large/wide variety of amazing tasting foods, all without any meat. And if you think about it, most people don't consume meat just straight-up (bacon possibly being one obvious exception) but rather they dress it up, to augment what ends up being a rather bland or unappetizing taste. And what do they normally dress it up with? Herbs, spices and salts - the first two of which are plant-based items.

I also think this way - it just so happens that what I think is harmful actually includes excessive consumption of meat. What is "excessive," you ask? I don't know for sure... all I do know is that far fewer people (if any) are actively citing vegetation as a instigator of things like cancer, diabetes, or heart disease.

Great answer and enjoyable writing. What is your opinion on soy? It seems to be linked to some negative things sometimes. Soy is just one of many other vegetarian things though that are better than soy or which people may not be sensitive to, so I think one can probably manage to be a vegetarian or mostly vegetarian these days without too much trouble or negative impact on their health and hair (hair whitening seems to have been connected in some studies to a build up of peroxide in the body which is not being broken down as much, and peroxide built up can be caused by vegetable matter and citrus and stuff, so sometimes when people go vegetarian, they might suddenly find their hair rapidly turning all white, but that is a minor thing overall considering how they might feel healthier otherwise).

The vast majority of my food, ingredients, and intake is mainly all meat free, and this was the case most of my life as well. I wonder if it can be established how much meat is too much meat probably? What kinds of meats might be better, and what kind of vegetarian options may even cause some problems, like some of the people drinking lots of green tea I saw were seemingly growing bald or losing their hair in the front (women), and some complaints I heard and experienced first hand as well with major and almost instantaneous drying of the skin and hair and even kidneys and bodily fluids with Oats and Oatmeal (it led me to the hospital where it dried me out so much that there wasn't enough fluid to break down some salts or a tiny little fragment or stone that was so microscopic it could pass through to the tubes where it caused the craziest immobilizing pain ever) as my skin was all sluffing off with dry flakes just from eating these delicious oat cakes lol. So I avoid drying stuff like oats, seem to be fine with rice.

Is there any spiritual element to not eating meat or not killing animals? Do you believe anything like it might cause us harm after we die or something? If not, then what is the big deal really overall?

 

[DagonVarunaMitraApolloZan]

That's funny. I actually looked ahead, on google maps, for vegetarian restaurants. We pack some, and the grocery stores are our go-to restaurants. A lot of the US Interstate truck stops have Indian stuff, now thanks to the Sikhs in trucking.

Woah, I had no idea Sikhs are in trucking now. Do Sikhs eat meat though?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Question: who out of three speakers in the video gave the most logical fact ?

As a vegetarian myself, I found more truth in what Sister Shivani and Swami Mukundananda said than what Sadhguru said. I can't relate to a mango becoming a male, female, or cow when in truth I know it becomes nutrient or waste.

 

[ChristineM]

Just curious, how much cooking and eating out do you do each (others can answer as well), and then out of the cooking and eating out, how much ordered by each member would you think has meat or no meat? Where are you/where are you from also or your background?

I am wondering about all this because of the statistics I've read about meat consumption as well as home cooking vs food from outside or quick and easy microwave meals and stuff, and I wanted some real life versions and examples or anecdotal type of evidences from people's own life stories to get an idea.

These days I eat mostly home cooked meals and very few of those meals have any meat in them because of the expense of meat and pressure about cooking it fast due to storage issues or it getting bad or smelly (I know I can freeze too but don't have much freezer space), and the two meats (I'd like to know what specific meats you eat most to least), are usually chicken and beef and then sometimes much more rarely fish.

All of it is very rare though, and chicken would be most likely probably in some kind of easy to make form rather than uncooked fillets, but the beef might be something in a stew primarily but pretty darn rarely, and then fish is usually from outside like fish and chips or something.

I rarely eat out anymore or order from outside, but it used to be more common maybe, but again due to expenses and even the higher quality or better taste of food at home, I probably even prefer food at home, except the cooking processes and delays sometimes, especially with more advanced recipes.

When I do order from outside though, its quite often meat inclusive, like pizzas with beef toppings or chicken toppings (at least some of them) and chicken sandwiches or fish sandwiches or something. In some way, it might almost seem like a waste of money to get something just as expensive which doesn't have meat, based on calculating in one's mind the prices involved of the ingredients, so that something without meat might seem like a bit of a rip off from a restaurant charging the same for it to not have meat.

Also, what kind of cuisine do you tend to make and tend to like and tend to go out for or order out for?

I think at home its mostly whatever and international, but maybe a lot of pastas and Italian stuff, maybe a lot of stews and soups like lentil stuff and chili so maybe that is all Southern style cooking, quite a bit of Mexican stuff too maybe, so maybe kind of Tex-Mex stuff, and made up fusion things, also things like Asian style soy sauce noodles.

When I order out, I like all kinds of things, but burgers and sandwiches like fried chicken sandwiches or fried fish sandwiches can seem like a lot of hassle to make and put together with all the various ingredients and processes so those are more convenient seeming sometimes to get from outside, also big pizzas (though pizzas are made at home and much tastier even) with lots of ingredients, and foods with ingredients I don't keep or have much of or are hard to find, namely Indian food, which I like a lot if one find's a good place, and everything similar to it so Pakistani, Afghani, all that, maybe even Thai (though going to Thai places is extremely rare). Chinese food also, some is made here, but other things seem more difficult to make or put together, I've had this Asian recipe I've wanted to make and have the ingredients for but its been a big hassle getting to it (some kind of sweet walnut shrimp thing).

Before covid we ate out about once or twice a month. We never order takeaway or have ready meals. Vegetables and fruit are usually fresh and seasonal with just a bit of imported, capsicum and banana for example that are not grown here.

I usually prepare the same ingredients with a vegetarian and a meat variation. 4 of us eat meat, 1 doesn't. Once or twice each week we all eat meat free.

Meats we eat are various cuts of beef or pork and chicken. Fish at least once a week. Both the beef and pork are locally farmed.

What i cook is usually English but i do do Mexican, Italian, Indian, Chinese and French We live in France so when we do.eat out it is inhabitably french cuisine but there is an excellent Thai restaurant nearby.