Vegetarianism. How do you look at it ?

[Secret Chief]

Species-ism is the next obstacle to our moral development.

To be eaten, meat has to be perceived in essence as no more than a tasty nutritional resource by the consumer. Furthermore, the animal that was killed in order to create the meat is viewed by the industry as no more than a commodity (and the global scale of the industry helps engender this).
Speciesism is key to this attitude. In armed conflict it is sometimes helpful for the combatants if the enemy are dehumanised in some way, or at least perceived as significantly inferior. Committing violence towards them thus becomes psychologically easier. In similar vein, it is easy to eat meat as long as the species we are killing for it are seen as essentially inferior. Without this attitude, a person could no more eat a pig's flesh than a human's flesh.

 

[Marcion]

For me the vegetarian diet has nothing to do with 'religious debate'.

First of all, the consumption of non-vegetarian foods (except perhaps very limited amounts of dairy) spoils my meditation practices and spoils the sentient state of my mind in general. That is the main reason I strictly avoid consuming them (for the same reason I avoid onions, garlic and mushrooms).

Secondly, I associate the parts of dead animals with murder and cruelty to which I don't want to contribute in any way.

Thirdly, I know that the planet is way too small for folks to consume non-vegetarian foods and not affect the balance of nature in a detrimental way. Species are going extinct and whole eco-systems are destroyed permanently because people want to continue enjoying non-vegetarian foods.

So it is not a religious choice but a very rational choice for me to avoid non-vegetarian foods and most dairy products.

 

[Valjean]

Torah certainly teaches kindness towards animals, but it also allows for the slaughter and eating of meat (including the eating of sacrifices).

Quite simply, we are evolved to be omnivores. Animal products are not our only source of nutrition (and really we need to be eating a lot more fruits and vegetables), but they are certainly part of our natural diet.

And morality consists of subverting our 'natures' in an effort to live harmoniously with others not of our tribe, or not cause harm through the concerted actions of our unnatural numbers.
"Natural" is not always a good thing outside its natural, hunter-gatherer domain.

In addition, while there are some who can handle a vegetarian lifestyles, it doesn't work for everyone. Not everyone has the same kind of body -- there are actually several types of bodies that need very different diets.

"Handle" physiologically, psychologically, or sociologically?
I've read these "type theories" as well; ethnic, blood-type, racial. &c. They're interesting, but none seem to gave gained much credence in scientific circles. In fairness, though, there's been little scientific research in this area.

Out of compassion, I have tried to be vegetarian twice in my life, and both times ended up being diabetic. My body just doesn't do well with rice and grains and legumes -- I don't process carbs well. I am one of those people that need a high protein, low carb diet. Again, I'm not saying everyone needs that diet. Just some people do. And you really can't have a high protein diet without animal products.

Sounds like a legitimate point. I wish the medical community would look into this.

 

[Valjean]

Milton Platt said: ↑
However, I would point out that vegetarianism is not entirely harmless. Animal habitat is destroyed in order to farm those tasty veggies.

I'd point out that most grain in the US is raised for animal feed, and that if we all became veggies thousands of square miles would be freed to return to nature.

This map has problems, but I think it illustrates my point. Note the area that would be freed if "cow pasturage" and "livestock feed" were eliminated:

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Great answer and enjoyable writing. What is your opinion on soy?

This biggest thing I have heard on soy is that it contains a sort of faux/mimic estrogen compound, and when consumed by developing youngsters particularly, it can have strange effects on hormone-related development. In smallish quantities, and if you are an adult, there is extremely little (if anything) to worry over.

The vast majority of my food, ingredients, and intake is mainly all meat free, and this was the case most of my life as well. I wonder if it can be established how much meat is too much meat probably?

I think the key is mostly just to make sure you eat a variety. Too much of anything causes an overage of this, or a deficiency in that. Everything in moderation, as they always say.

Is there any spiritual element to not eating meat or not killing animals? Do you believe anything like it might cause us harm after we die or something? If not, then what is the big deal really overall?

I, personally, am not a spiritual person whatsoever. I find it difficult to even define the term. I am far more pragmatic in my assessments. I have never found "spirituality" to produce any practical positive results for me, so I don't tend to put anything related to it into practice or even give it much thought.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'd point out that most grain in the US is raised for animal feed, and that if we all became veggies thousands of square miles would be freed to return to nature.

This map has problems, but I think it illustrates my point. Note the area that would be freed if "cow pasturage" and "livestock feed" were eliminated:

The cow/pasture part is tricky, as it's often on land too dry or much else agriculturally. We have large chunks of it in my province. It can be turned into other uses though, like solar plants, or housing, if the water consumption was solved. (Most of our water goes to agriculture, not human use.) But the more interesting one is livestock feed. There are so many plants that could provide nutrition. Soybeans is one, but so are lentils, chick peas, and a vast array of vegetables. One thing that hasn't happened here much yet is drying. Drying doesn't lose much nutrition, but greatly increases storage time, and reduces transportation costs. I dry apples here as a hobby, and we eat them throughout the year. It's free food, you can't beat that. It also solves seasonal growing to some extent.

I think it's a matter of changing habits. not much else.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

I don't see what ethical principles can be drawn from these points.

As within, so without. Harshness within, attract harsh circumstances. Brutality within, attract brutal circumstances.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I've fairly sure many other can be ferreted out.

The capacity for reciprocal sympathy I don't see as a consideration.

Why not, brother? Appropriate reciprocation is absolutely vital for maintaining fairness. Would it sound fair for me to fight for the rights about certain individual and/or group when they don’t give a flying **** about me and my well-being, and keep indifferent demeanor to my suffering? Would it be fair for Israel to fight for Iranian problems when they, most likely, don’t care about Israel and it’s suffering?

Well, I personally won’t put myself in such an unfair deal. It’s cool if others do so [it’s misdirected, but it’s positive], but it’s not wrong if someone doesn’t either. Those who are devoid of reciprocating positivity aren’t worthy of receiving it.

Human babies are incapable of that, as well, and I don't see them at the meat counter.

You omitted key underlying pre-requisite in the points. I said “if the places are switched” and we were getting slaughtered by animals. Animals won’t give two hoots. Of course, human babies will keep an indifferent demeanor too, but human babies are incapable of causing severe suffering even if replaced in this hypothetical scenario.

Human babies are also incapable of many harmful things that animals are capable of. Human babies are incapable of raping, infanticide, necrophilia, cannibalism, bullying, deliberate murder, sadism etc. etc. etc. There is no equivalence between human babies and animals. It’s like saying that a completely paralyzed, blind, deaf individual, who has little-to-no awareness of what the hell is going on and incapable of helping someone, should be blamed for staying silent on rape case that happened in his/her presence, just as much as a fully able individual with all the necessary tool [for prevention of rape] is to be blamed for keeping an indifferent demeanor to rape that happening. Besides, others don’t end up becoming fresh meats by babies either. Nor human babies are capable of [willingly] put other sentient beings through extreme, prolonged agony. But other humans/animals/living beings go through severe agony due to animals, even deliberately.

Again, there is no equivalence between human babies and animals. Human babies do have inherent empathy and sympathetic nature for others which will fully develop as they grow [which is why people here and everywhere express sympathy to others (unless the baby in question is a natural born sociopath/psychopath)], while animals mostly have inherent apathy and savagery towards others [unless, some obvious exceptions, like for their children and/or herd and/or some out of the ordinary case(s) and such].

HOWEVER, I do agree with you to some extent. We shouldn’t let it bring our conscience down to their level. These animals aren’t our teachers. Which is why I think we should come up with more humane methods for killing and breeding and other things involving animals.

Nor do I see the dharma of other animals as applicable to our own.

But their karma is applicable to them. I’ve seen videos of hen’s chick pecking their sibling to death [also saw this among babies other birds]. I wonder why all the bleeding hearts when they receive the same harshness? I have seen hen pecking their and/or other's chicks to death. I've also heard about rabbit eating their babies.

I’ve seen videos of animals raping their kind and other. I’ve seen videos of animals killing/raping/etc, of other own kind for no serious reason. I’ve seen videos of cows munching on and eating alive chicks and not giving two hoots about their suffering [and even heard of cases where cows ate fully grown pigeons]. I have seen goats doing the same as cows. I have seen videos of animals involved in many other behaviors totally unacceptable to any sane human being. Maybe karma is making them reap the same suffering they have sown in other sentient beings?

As within, so without. Harshness within, attract harsh circumstances.

Most other animals have no other dietary options.

I honestly don’t know about that. I am extremely uneducated about environmental and dietary aspects of this particular issue. But I have seen cases where even herbivores were involved in carnivorous behavior. Almost all land mammals will eat baby birds. Cows and other ungulates eat their own placenta, some animals even eat their own newborn [if they are stillborn, I think]. Even plants eat animals. Besides, we aren’t just talking about their eating behavior, and their savage and agonizing behavior overall. Even herbivores and seemingly other innocents animals kill each other and do so inhumanly. I am running a little short on time but check this out:

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

Also, check this out:

 

[stvdv]

And much of what they said was not empirical fact.

Not empirical facts also can be facts though

 

[stvdv]

I do eat some meat because my wife has health concerns when she's gone vegetarian, but we try and keep it at a minimum.

I only miss out on sufficient B12, so I need to take extra B12, other than that I did not find anything lacking in vegan diet. But when changing into vegetarian diet one should be careful not to eat too much fruits, vegetables, tubers if one has weak kidneys, and then the consequential detoxing of the years of meat eating can also go too fast resulting in severe symptoms. Also when one has certain intestinal troubles the excess fibres can result in problems.

Do the healthy concerns come from personal experience or health conditions, or do they come from how the meat/milk industry is brainwashing us (though here in Holland the government even promotes now to go vegetarian; so we have had a big shift in that regard)

 

[Secret Chief]

I only miss out on sufficient B12

Do you have this in the Netherlands? I use it quite regularly.

 

[stvdv]

Do you have this in the Netherlands? I use it quite regularly.

View attachment 44445

Yes, the yeast flakes we also have. And they taste delicious.

 

[Secret Chief]

Yes, the yeast flakes we also have. And they taste delicious.

While I'm in the mood...
This plant milk tastes fabulous and is seriously nutritious (including that evasive iodine)

 

[PureX]

Vegetarianism. How do you look at it ?


It's far to hideous to be looked at with the human eye!

 

[stvdv]

While I'm in the mood...
This plant milk tastes fabulous and is seriously nutritious (including that evasive iodine)

View attachment 44448

That is a good one, because needed and added Iodine is normally related to 6 grams of salt daily, which is a huge burden on the kidneys.

 

[Secret Chief]

That is a good one, because needed and added Iodine is normally related to 6 grams of salt daily, which is a huge burden on the kidneys.

Good grief yes! I have sea kelp crisps too.

 

[metis]

I only miss out on sufficient B12, so I need to take extra B12, other than that I did not find anything lacking in vegan diet. But when changing into vegetarian diet one should be careful not to eat too much fruits, vegetables, tubers if one has weak kidneys, and then the consequential detoxing of the years of meat eating can also go too fast resulting in severe symptoms. Also when one has certain intestinal troubles the excess fibres can result in problems.

Do the healthy concerns come from personal experience or health conditions, or do they come from how the meat/milk industry is brainwashing us (though here in Holland the government even promotes now to go vegetarian; so we have had a big shift in that regard)

Thanks for your response, and both my wife and I do take vitamin B-12 and also D because we naturally run low on both because of our age. The irony with me being low with D is that I spend a great deal of time outdoors and yet mine still runs low. Besides the heavy dose vitamin pill, I now eat more fatty fish, which is the best source for D.

When we went complete vegetarian about 2 decades ago, it seemed to affect my wife's immunity system negatively but not mine. When I did the research, it suggests that blood type may make a difference. Mine is A+, which is more compatible with a vegetarian diet than my wife's O according to what I read.

 

[Valjean]

Not empirical facts also can be facts though

But unsupported, so... speculation.

 

[stvdv]

But unsupported, so... speculation.

Speculation it is when people do not know. A man of wisdom (like Jesus) just knows, so His facts are facts, not speculation

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If you ever decide to try again, check out vegetarian keto. You don't need to follow strict ketosis guidelines but it gives you a lot of recipes for high protein, low carb vegetarian foods. There is also eco-Atkins which functions similarly too. You can still get all the protein your body needs from plant, egg and dairy sources without relying on high carb foods.

Oh, certainly you can get your protein needs met from dairy products. You have no idea how much milk I drink.