Vegetarianism is one of the best things you can do for the enviroment

[Me Myself]

Or if you wouldn´t do that much, eat less meat.

[youtube]5YkNkscBEp0[/youtube]
Mark Bittman: What's wrong with what we eat - YouTube

Interested in your thoughts.

 

[England my lionheart]

Have you ever been in the proximity of someone who eats a lot of Mung Bean shoots!,i do agree though that we should eat less meat,the thing with Vegetables though IMO is they need to be very fresh otherwise the flavour is pretty poor.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Not necessarily. If consuming more grains and veggies and fruits means more food miles, more GMO's in our food production, and more chemicals introduced into our water and soil, then I doubt that would be better for the environment.

IMO, the best thing you can do for the environment is to be more self-sustaining. Meaning, if you can raise it or grow it for consumption, do that.

What I will say is that the current common practice of CAFO's and how animals are raised and slaughtered is what we avoid as much as possible. We go to a local farm that raises all kinds of veggies and fruits as well as pigs, cattle, chickens, and turkeys. It's become a place that we purchase the bulk of our food, and the best thing is that we know and have become friends with the family.

And because we help out and volunteer at the farm, we've found ourselves sometimes with free food whenever they've had a bumper crop or extra egg production from the birds out in pasture. I've gone out there at 4am to help with butchering the chickens, and the connection we all feel with the animals, the trees, the air, the planet, and each other is amazing.

One last thing....I was a former vegetarian for 7 years and a former vegan for 2 years. So I'm fully aware of the ethics and the perspectives of vegetarianism. I've come to a perspective that disagrees. IMO, culling the herd of animals is much healthier for the environment and for our survival than refraining from eating animals who are now free to breed and to compete for the same water, the same land, and the same fruit and nut trees that humans need.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Not necessarily. If consuming more grains and veggies and fruits means more food miles, more GMO's in our food production, and more chemicals introduced into our water and soil, then I doubt that would be better for the environment.

I would like to point out that a parallel argument would be that because the food that bred-for-slaughter animals would be consuming would also be GMOs- - even aside from factory farming, virtually every grain-fed animal would be exposed to GMOs. Grazing is good for some marginal lands, but there's severe water issues on the horizon.

IMO, the best thing you can do for the environment is to be more self-sustaining. Meaning, if you can raise it or grow it for consumption, do that.

Sure, or co-copting with locals to do the same. I think w

What I will say is that the current common practice of CAFO's and how animals are raised and slaughtered is what we avoid as much as possible. We go to a local farm that raises all kinds of veggies and fruits as well as pigs, cattle, chickens, and turkeys. It's become a place that we purchase the bulk of our food, and the best thing is that we know and have become friends with the family.

And because we help out and volunteer at the farm, we've found ourselves sometimes with free food whenever they've had a bumper crop or extra egg production from the birds out in pasture. I've gone out there at 4am to help with butchering the chickens, and the connection we all feel with the animals, the trees, the air, the planet, and each other is amazing.

One last thing....I was a former vegetarian for 7 years and a former vegan for 2 years. So I'm fully aware of the ethics and the perspectives of vegetarianism. I've come to a perspective that disagrees. IMO, culling the herd of animals is much healthier for the environment and for our survival than refraining from eating animals who are now free to breed and to compete for the same water, the same land, and the same fruit and nut trees that humans need.

I understand your point, and it should be further noted that a sustainable agriculture system almost has to feature a place for animal husbandry. There is a lot of beneficial synergy to be wrought from plant-animal relations, and technology can further enhance this.

Buuuuuut - they need not be bred for slaughter. It would be more efficient by any metric one chooses to measure if they weren't.

My conclusion:

1. Is vegetarianism good for the environment? Yes.
2. Is vegetarianism, in of itself, sufficient to make for a environmentally sound farm-to-fork strategy? Absolutely not. It requires first and foremost a sustainable agricultural system, vegetarianism is only one possible part of that. If one is considering vegetarianism for environmental reasons, one should also consider a broader set of strategies - if one isn't already.
3. Can a sustainable agricutural system feature animals raised for consumption? Qualified yes - it can, but a vegetarianism system would still be all around more efficient.
4. Can we expect most people to become vegetarian without coercion in the near future (ie. the time allotted for transitioning to a sustainable system)? Probably not.

 

[Me Myself]

I think that bringing down meat consumption is reasonable as long as we raise awareness.

 

[Dingbat]

I think that bringing down meat consumption is reasonable as long as we raise awareness.

What do you do with the excess domestic chattel then?

 

[Revoltingest]

Eat less but better meat.
You know what I mean.

 

[Quagmire]

What do you do with the excess domestic chattel then?

Use them for fertilizer to grow veggies.

 

[Dingbat]

Eat less but better meat.
You know what I mean.

Giggity!

 

[Revoltingest]

Giggity!

No....bacony!

 

[Shermana]

Eating Organic is probably the best thing you can do altogether for the environment. Eating vegetables that are made with Horrible pesticides and chemical fertilizers I don't think is all that great.

 

[Me Myself]

What do you do with the excess domestic chattel then?

Milk.

But then again, at least they wont reproduce them in excess. It is generally not from one day to the next one this kind of things.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Milk.

But then again, at least they wont reproduce them in excess. It is generally not from one day to the next one this kind of things.

You only get milk from lactating cows who have given birth.

What to do with the males who inseminated them and with the calves, then?

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Animal labor and production of biofertilizer and biopesticide as in India. Generally however, use of sheep and goats is more efficient. Especially sheep in good lands.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

What's best for the environment is living as we are. We are not herbivores. We are omnivores.

Raise our food better, with less environmental impact. Slaughter humanely. That's it.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

What's best for the environment is living as we are. We are not herbivores. We are omnivores.

Raise our food better, with less environmental impact. Slaughter humanely. That's it.

I have no beef with this, but to say that we're omnivores as if it's a fact set in stone is perhaps a bit misleading; we need not be. We can be herbivores, and it is more efficient. The only truly efficient sources of animal protein are poultry and [aquacultured] fish.

Unfortunately, oceanic overfishing is also one of the most serious environmental issues of all.

However I agree with you that a locally oriented, sustainable-agriculture based food production system incorporating slaughter is certainly viable and I would be overjoyed to see it; far moreso than a vegetarian system that is non-local and unsustainable (exhibited by say 30% of India).

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Animal labor and production of biofertilizer and biopesticide as in India. Generally however, use of sheep and goats is more efficient. Especially sheep in good lands.

Oh I agree with finding other ways of utilizing the fact that there are living breathing animals who need to eat and drink water themselves.

I think cattle, however, are remarkably efficient when rotated on arable land properly. Sheep and goats are, too, but the output of milk is far more from cows than from goats....though goats are pretty damn efficient themselves and can provide for a family with one or two goats depending on how much the family consumes in milk, cheese, and butter.

But that doesn't quite address the magnitude of extra animals walking around who will be released from the CAFO's and cared for by....whom? And fed by....what?

Sustainable organic agriculture that is not centralized have as high an output of food for the omnivore (such as humans ) as mass producing monoculture vegetable crops on 1000 acres of land. Plus, it uses less water, with no pesticides, herbicides, or GMO "seeds" manufactured by Monsanto, uses less transportation and food miles to go from harvest to dinner table, and actually builds the topsoil.

There are plenty of sustainable agriculture practices in this country, but you have to look for them. Their costs are low, their production is good, they care for the welfare of the animals, and they benefit the land and water rather than simply taking from resources. I watched the farm we volunteer on rebuild the pasture that had originally been uninhabitable, arid, topsoil stripped after 50 years of traditional row-cropping....and within 5 years transformed it all into lush pastures with cattle, pigs, chickens, and a spring beginning to form.

Problem was, according to some, was the fact they had to cull the herd every now and then. Because if they don't, there is the risk of over-grazing the pasture and exposing the topsoil to the elements. It can happen pretty quickly, too, since I have seen how pastured animals staying in one paddock can strip it bare in a week.

If there is any common ground between my ethics and vegetarian ethics, it's this: Avoid CAFO-raised animals, eat less meat (but I'd add to eat more of the animal that is avoided, like the organs, which is not part of vegetarian ethics), and eat more of a variety of vegetables, fruits, grains, nuts, and legumes.

I'm sure we can start there.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Question - out of curiosity - what are hunter-gatherer tribes around the world supposed to do with a global vegetarian decree?

And the native cultures in the Arctic tundra?

Are we to insist on banishing their hunting practices that provide food, clothing, and fuel for them?

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Question - out of curiosity - what are hunter-gatherer tribes around the world supposed to do with a global vegetarian decree?

And the native cultures in the Arctic tundra?

Are we to insist on banishing their hunting practices that provide food, clothing, and fuel for them?

I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested a coercive policy, least of all for the cultures reliant as a result of their environment on animal protein sources.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested a coercive policy, least of all for the cultures reliant as a result of their environment on animal protein sources.

Gotcha. I was curious what might be suggested.