Vegetarianism/Veganism and You

[whirlingmerc]

At the end of Romans, Paul advises Christians to cut the vegetarians some slack conscience wise
Since there is a 'priesthood of believers' in Christianity there are some things better left to concience

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is because humans created the word "omnivore" and its definition just to suit our dysfunction and to give a pretty name to our ugly and repulsive eating of animals.

That does not address my question, and it's a silly reply because we humans invented every word that has ever been spoken or thought during the entirety of our species existence. Again, if we aren't omnivores, then why do we have teeth that look like other mammal omnivores?

The eating of animals is based on the mentality of brute beast, and for human beings to mature then we need to stop acting like animals.

"You live with apes man, it's hard to be clean." We are animals, so how do we stop this? Should we also stop having sex, since other animals have sex? Should we not defend ourselves, since other animals defend themselves when provoked?

It is the human heart (spiritual) and soul which are not fit for eating the animals.

Those are beliefs, not biological facts.

By eating the food of violence it makes humans into cruel and unethical barbarians.

That is a belief, and not fact. What of those who are poor and hunt things like rabbit or fish to feed themselves and their family? For many, such things offer cheap and readily available sources of food.

Your sentence above is completely self serving and selfish, as you declare that our bodies are equipped (but the animals are defenseless) and your evolution is driven (but the animal evolution is violated) and you say it does no harm to us (but it does horrible harm to the animals).

It's not self serving or selfish but a statement of biological fact.

You and others accept the primitive act of cruelty to animals just to feed your face.

"Life feeds on life, feeds on life, feeds on life." The living must die so that life may continue. Our very cycle of life is prone to cruelty, and it mandates death. Without death, there can be no life, and even herbivores destroy and end life to sustain themselves.

 

[Know it all.]

At the end of Romans, Paul advises Christians to cut the vegetarians some slack conscience wise
Since there is a 'priesthood of believers' in Christianity there are some things better left to concience

Paul was like Moses as they both taught compromise and a secondary lower standard.

I think every one knows about Moses teaching ways of breaking the rules, but most people refuse to see Paul doing the same.

Jesus said to be perfect, while Paul said everyone falls short, Jesus taught repentance while Paul preached grace, and Paul tried to make the Gospel message easier for those people. He gave then milk instead of meat because the people were still babes. See 1 Corinthians 3:1-3

The problem was that the people who eat animals were the violent people, and Paul wanted to minimize disputes, while Jesus told His people to accept the suffering and to defy the violent.

 

[Ponder This]

And then they got civilised and started planting crops.

And herding livestock.

Another point is do we really want to live by eating defenseless animals, or shall we live better than that?

I do not like people who turn vegetarian simply for their health and have no care or regard about the animals.

For their health seems just more selfishness to me, and they being vegetarian is a spiritual waste to them.

Eating defenseless plants does not make you non-violent or morally superior. This is a common conceit vegetarians have.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I accept that you and people like you have the ideology of cruelty and death.

You and others do not have to live like brute beast, but you do.

I choose to do better than that.

Don't be that guy. All you're doing is making yourself look conceited and driving away any potential interest in vegetarianism.

 

[Lyndon]

Ponder, Meat eaters are responsible for 99% of plant use so your argument is invalid. Meat eaters are responsible for the use of 5 times more plants than vegetarians. (because it takes 5-20 lbs of plants to produce 1 lb of meat, proven fact)

 

[Wu Wei]

Question; can you site the source of this "proven fact"

Not that I doubt it, I an just curious as to where it comes from

 

[Lyndon]

google it, the figure most often given for beef is 7-10lbs of grain for 1 lb of meat but they are not counting the lbs of grass or hay eaten. And I believe your just playing daft, as this topic has been discussed repeatably in vegetarian topics on this forum of which you have had an outspoken part

 

[Wu Wei]

google it, the figure most often given for beef is 7-10lbs of grain for 1 lb of meat but they are not counting the lbs of grass or hay eaten. And I believe your just playing daft, as this topic has been discussed repeatably in vegetarian topics on this forum of which you have had an outspoken part

Actually I am not "Playing daft" I was simply asking for a source.

 

[Chakra]

Eating defenseless plants does not make you non-violent or morally superior. This is a common conceit vegetarians have.

Are you equating non-sentient plants with sentient animals?

 

[Lyndon]

Google "how much grain to feed a cow to produce 1 lb of meat" and I'm sure your question will be answered

 

[Chakra]

Question; can you site the source of this "proven fact"

Not that I doubt it, I an just curious as to where it comes from

http://www.fao.org/docrep/v8180t/v8180t07.htm
http://www.globalissues.org/article/240/beef
http://www.wisoybean.org/news/soybean_facts.php (check feed)
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/News/2006/1000448/index.html
http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-practices-management/irrigation-water-use/background.aspx (search "accounts for approximately 80 to 90 percent of U.S. consumptive water use")
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/33/11996.abstract
http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-carbon-footprint-diet

 

[VioletVortex]

Our ancestors were also constantly moving, and not nearly as sedentary as "modern life" expects of us. Diet isn't the only thing for health, but, in reality, all of us probably do need to be more active for more optimal health.

As I am of European descent, I speak of Pagan European civilization mostly. Ancient Europeans were hunter gatherers. Those who say that civilization began with farming, or that it began with the invention of the plow are completely wrong. Christian civilization did, as it developed in the "cradle of civilization", however, there were many other very civilized cultures around the world, such as Europeans and Native Americans. Christian civilization just refuses to accept this and that lie is taught by schools around the world. The farming civilizations became reliant on farming and they would already be unfit for an apocalyptic situation. However, hunter gatherers would.

Back to the main topic. Humans were not designed to eat such a simple diet based off of so-called "staples". We were never meant to eat just grain or vegetables. That is not healthy. Meat generally provides more protein and fat than vegetables, and those two are essential nutrients.

From an ethical point of view, I also see it the same way. Killing animals for food is not "morally wrong". Our ancestors have been doing it for thousands of years, and animals do it. That should be enough to justify eating meat. The guilt anyone my feel from eating meat is just from being raised to see from a certain moral point of view.

 

[ZooGirl02]

My religion is Catholicism. We believe that animals were created for use by mankind. It is perfectly fine to eat animals. This section of the Catechism of the Catholic Church sums up the Catholic Church's official teachings on animals:

Respect for the integrity of creation

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196

2416 Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a7.htm#2415

 

[Lyndon]

As I am of European descent, I speak of Pagan European civilization mostly. Ancient Europeans were hunter gatherers. Those who say that civilization began with farming, or that it began with the invention of the plow are completely wrong. Christian civilization did, as it developed in the "cradle of civilization", however, there were many other very civilized cultures around the world, such as Europeans and Native Americans. Christian civilization just refuses to accept this and that lie is taught by schools around the world. The farming civilizations became reliant on farming and they would already be unfit for an apocalyptic situation. However, hunter gatherers would.

Back to the main topic. Humans were not designed to eat such a simple diet based off of so-called "staples". We were never meant to eat just grain or vegetables. That is not healthy. Meat generally provides more protein and fat than vegetables, and those two are essential nutrients.

From an ethical point of view, I also see it the same way. Killing animals for food is not "morally wrong". Our ancestors have been doing it for thousands of years, and animals do it. That should be enough to justify eating meat. The guilt anyone my feel from eating meat is just from being raised to see from a certain moral point of view.

Sorry but I don't get my morality from Satanist sources!!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sorry but I don't get my morality from Satanist sources!!

Odd, I found the Satanic Bible to contain a very positive guide for morality. It boggles my mind that the "Holy" Bible doesn't have many laws the Satanic Bible does, such as not needlessly harming animals, being a good guest, not harming children, and making no sexual advances unless the light is green, and not bother people when in public (some Christians can especially learn from that one).

 

[Ponder This]

Ponder, Meat eaters are responsible for 99% of plant use so your argument is invalid. Meat eaters are responsible for the use of 5 times more plants than vegetarians. (because it takes 5-20 lbs of plants to produce 1 lb of meat, proven fact)

I made no argument that people should not consume plants.
Did you know an ant weighs between 1 and 5 mg but that an African Bush Elephant weighs about 13,000 lbs? Is it now less violent to kill the ant because it weighs less? Food for thought.

Are you equating non-sentient plants with sentient animals?

No, I am not. I realize the question of sentience in plants and animals is a popular topic of debate and that not everyone is prepared to accept that plants are capable of sentience too. But what I am saying is that killing is a form of harm whether it is killing plants or killing animals or killing people. Believing that you are non-violent when you kill plants just because you don't kill animals is self-deception. It's creating an exception because it is convenient.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, I am not. I realize the question of sentience in plants and animals is a popular topic of debate and that not everyone is prepared to accept that plants are capable of sentience too. But what I am saying is that killing is a form of harm whether it is killing plants or killing animals or killing people. Believing that you are non-violent when you kill plants just because you don't kill animals is self-deception. It's creating an exception because it is convenient.

It's just another variation of speciesism and hypocrisy. They use the same arguments regarding non-mammals that idiots like Descartes used regarding dogs, when he tortured them to death during vivisection and claimed that their cries of agony were just a "mechanical reflex". When you bring up how plants react to their environment, how they defend themselves, send warnings to other members of their species in the area, how they prey on other plants and animals, compete for resources, reproduce, etc. it's dismissed as some sort of automatic reaction. They just don't want to face up to reality.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

As I am of European descent, I speak of Pagan European civilization mostly. Ancient Europeans were hunter gatherers. Those who say that civilization began with farming, or that it began with the invention of the plow are completely wrong. Christian civilization did, as it developed in the "cradle of civilization", however, there were many other very civilized cultures around the world, such as Europeans and Native Americans. Christian civilization just refuses to accept this and that lie is taught by schools around the world. The farming civilizations became reliant on farming and they would already be unfit for an apocalyptic situation. However, hunter gatherers would.

Back to the main topic. Humans were not designed to eat such a simple diet based off of so-called "staples". We were never meant to eat just grain or vegetables. That is not healthy. Meat generally provides more protein and fat than vegetables, and those two are essential nutrients.

From an ethical point of view, I also see it the same way. Killing animals for food is not "morally wrong". Our ancestors have been doing it for thousands of years, and animals do it. That should be enough to justify eating meat. The guilt anyone my feel from eating meat is just from being raised to see from a certain moral point of view.

Farming goes back to about 13,000 BC and before, so I don't know what Christianity has to do with it. The early Indo-Europeans were pastoralists, not hunter-gatherers.

 

[Lyndon]

Meat eaters arguments are SO pathetic!!