Venturing A Prediction

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps that is the USA, but we tend to get as much from the Gaza side as to Israeli experiences.

I've not seen any such regrets - and understandable - but that is war, and which Hamas declared upon Israel in the most stupid way (being completely dumb as to what response would be forthcoming), unless they see the expected multitude of deaths in Gaza as 'acceptable' (and hence being rather cynical). I wonder what the Palestinians really think of this.

"Stupid" is the word of the day.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

....is to ignore why Hamas exists & acts as it does.

This is not justification.
It's about understanding reality.

Well, here is some of the "reality" as I see it.

It is my view that Hamas has been, and especially now is undercutting the struggle for Palestinian rights and making it possible to caricature Palestinians as bloodthirsty savages who just want to kill Jews -- and I think you and I know that is not really true at all. This will not only cost Palestinian lives now, but it will also set back their pursuit of justice and dignity by decades. They (Hamas, not Palestinians) have alienated hard-won support in the international community. And they have made it harder to stand for their recognition, rights, and justice.

In Israel, it makes responding to the notion that ‘they don’t really want freedom, they just want us all dead and gone’ exponentially more difficult. It may be that that is Hamas's goal, but that is not the goal of most Palestinians. Sadly, too, I think they have reinforced the flawed idea that any failure of brutality to subjugate others is evidence of the need for more brutality.

All of this will perpetuate great harm for Palestinians and Israelis, now and in future generations, on so many levels. Dehumanizing both Palestinians and Israelies, plunging both ever deeper into a morass of hatred and violence. There is no security and dignity for Israeli Jews if there is no security and dignity for Palestinian Arabs.

And that last paragraph is the key, really -- or so I think. Because without security and dignity, neither side feels that it can relax the "war posture" and try anything else.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

I prefer pursuing a solution to, rather than pursuit
of war.
BTW, It will be neither easy nor overnight.

Yes, agreed. But it's looking like they are going to go and head in. Into an area, that might not even have that many adults in it. Which might make for an especially tragic situation, unfortunately. So it's apparently a bad situation all around. We are about to see what happens, I don't know what will happen, and hopefully it ends quickly

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, here is some of the "reality" as I see it.

It is my view that Hamas has been, and especially now is undercutting the struggle for Palestinian rights and making it possible to caricature Palestinians as bloodthirsty savages who just want to kill Jews -- and I think you and I know that is not really true at all. This will not only cost Palestinian lives now, but it will also set back their pursuit of justice and dignity by decades. They (Hamas, not Palestinians) have alienated hard-won support in the international community. And they have made it harder to stand for their recognition, rights, and justice.

In Israel, it makes responding to the notion that ‘they don’t really want freedom, they just want us all dead and gone’ exponentially more difficult. It may be that that is Hamas's goal, but that is not the goal of most Palestinians. Sadly, too, I think they have reinforced the flawed idea that any failure of brutality to subjugate others is evidence of the need for more brutality.

All of this will perpetuate great harm for Israel and Israelis, now and in future generations, on so many levels. Dehumanizing both Palestinians and Israelies, plunging both ever deeper into a morass of hatred and violence. There is no security and dignity for Israeli Jews if there is no security and dignity for Palestinian Arabs.

And that last paragraph is the key, really -- or so I think. Because without security and dignity, neither side feels that it can relax the "war posture" and try anything else.

I've nothing to add.

 

[Watchmen]

Oh, you fanatical servants of Israel...
I've no connection to university students.
I haven't been one in half a century.

That's always said before stepping forward
to look at a tree, & miss the forest.

I'm largely ignoring morality of the players
in this drama, other than the goal that all
sides ultimately need to find peaceful
co-existence.
Judging which is worse....Israel or Hamas.
How would it be done...why which has killed
more civilians?

As long as Israel oppresses the Palestinians,
if Hamas did that, it would be replaced by
another group with the same agenda.

Straw man.
I never said Israel should put its guns down.
Moreover, it's a problem that so many
Israeli civilians are unarmed.

It’s not a straw man. It’s the slam dunk truth. One side is defending itself. The other side wants to eradicate the other. The morality of the situation is crystal clear.

 

[Revoltingest]

It’s not a straw man. It’s the slam dunk truth.

Geeze Louise.
Claiming simplistic violent Israeli apologetics as "The Truth".

 

[Watchmen]

Geeze Louise.
Claiming simplistic violent Israeli apologetics as "The Truth".

Hamas would eradicate Israel if could. Israel could live peacefully with Palestinians but for Hamas. That’s the Truth. Your implication that both sides are equally morally reprehensible shows a gross lack of judgment.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm bad at predicting anything but general trends.
But I'm going out on a limb here.
Treat it as a speculation.

Israel is using the Hamas attack as an opportunity.
A) Rid Gaza of all Palestinians by capture, exile, or death.
B) Cement authoritarian control in Israel.
C) Expand into & settle Gaza.
D) Use political power in USA to thwart any country
that threatens the plan.

It explains how some occurrences could be related.
1) The monumental failure to detect Hamas's attack..
2) Cutting off Gaza's food & utilities.
3) Warning Gazans to leave or die.
4) Giving them inadequate time to do it.
5) Destroying escape routes.

I've low confidence that #1 was intentional....merely possible.
But #2 thru #4 appear more likely to be inspired by Rahm
Emanuel, ie, "never let a crisis go to waste".

Caution:
This might be controversial.
Play nice, people.

I don't see Israel going authoritarian, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does end Gaza being a Palestinian territory.
Or they'll level Gaza and offer.to rebuild but only under the conditions Isreal effectively takes over, which is basically a different route to the same thing, with the last other thing they level it and leave it, but I doubt that after this time.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It’s a nice conspiracy theory primarily driven by American university students. I think if we truly step back and look at the whole situation, it’s clear Israel has the moral high ground over Hamas. If Hamas put its guns down then Israel and the Palestinians could co-exist peacefully. If Israel put its guns down, there’d be no more Jews. Tell me with a straight face that I’m wrong.

No one has the moral high ground in it. Everyone involved is guilty of something, somethings that are really bad. Hamas didn't just spring out of the mud, amd indiscriminate retaliations that rack up civilian casualties are known for driving extremism and priming people to be radicalized. So some rockets get launched and in response to that blockades happen. And in response to hunger, poverty and lack of medical resources people become primed for radicalization and become prone to becoming extreme in wanting to do something about it so they go launch a bunch of missles.
And that's just the more recent history of the Palestinian and Israeli tensions in Gaza. But ultimately Israel has been punishing the Palestinians ever since they hearded them into such a small area.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hamas would eradicate Israel if could. Israel could live peacefully with Palestinians but for Hamas. That’s the Truth. Your implication that both sides are equally morally reprehensible shows a gross lack of judgment.

They weren't doing that before Hamas.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hamas would eradicate Israel if could.

But it can't.

Israel could live peacefully with Palestinians but for Hamas.

No.
As long as Israel brutally oppresses Palestinians, there won't be peace.

That’s the Truth.

There you go again with
closed minded hubris.

Your implication that both sides are equally morally reprehensible shows a gross lack of judgment.

I imply nothing of the sort.
I look to systems & solutions.
Preaching & judging is for religious fanatics.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't see Israel going authoritarian...

Think of it as something in degrees that waxes & wanes.
And consider authoritarian to whom.
Now the concept is something more amenable to discussion.

...but I wouldn't be surprised if it does end Gaza being a Palestinian territory.

....or Israeli territory.

 

[Watchmen]

But it can't.

No.
As long as Israel brutally oppresses Palestinians, there won't be peace.

There you go again with
closed minded hubris.

I imply nothing of the sort.
I look to systems & solutions.
Preaching & judging is for religious fanatics.

You’re equating their actions. Terrible. Israel doesn’t “brutally oppress” Palestinians, they seek to eradicate Hamas. There’s a difference. I’ll say it again, if there was no Hamas then the Palestinians and Israel could live in peace.

 

[Revoltingest]

You’re equating their actions.

You're misunderstanding.
But you could infer that I find Israel's behavior worse
than Hamas because Israel is deadlier, & bears greater
responsibility for eschewing solving the problem.

Terrible. Israel doesn’t “brutally oppress” Palestinians, they seek to eradicate Hamas.

By killing any innocent Palestinian with the misfortune
of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
And by other means, eg, torture, group punishment,
home destruction.

There’s a difference. I’ll say it again, if there was no Hamas then the Palestinians and Israel could live in peace.

If there were (not "was") no Hamas, then the
situation would cause another similar group
to rise up in its place. Eradicating Hamas,
especially as Israel is bluntly & brutally doing
it will further inspire hostility towards Israel.

You propose the status quo, & even worsening
the situation.

 

[Watchmen]

You're misunderstanding.
But you could infer that I find Israel's behavior worse
than Hamas because Israel is deadlier, & bears greater
responsibility for eschewing solving the problem.

By killing any innocent Palestinian with the misfortune
of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
And by other means, eg, torture, group punishment,
home destruction.

If there were (not "was") no Hamas, then the
situation would cause another similar group
to rise up in its place. Eradicating Hamas,
especially as Israel is bluntly & brutally doing
it will further inspire hostility towards Israel.

You propose the status quo, & even worsening
the situation.

Amazing. Everything you said just now is wrong.

 

[Revoltingest]

Amazing. Everything you said just now is wrong.

It's odd to see a poster who can't just
disagree, but insists they have The Truth.
I have only opinions & speculations.

 

[Kenny]

No.
As long as Israel brutally oppresses Palestinians, there won't be peace.

This is quite interesting if not extremely funny and yet so sad.

Where are you getting your information from?

 

[Revoltingest]

This is quite interesting if not extremely funny and yet so sad.

What's the funny part?

Where are you getting your information from?

Sources too numerous to list.
Where do you get yours?

 

[Kenny]

What's the funny part?

It was so way out there, it made me chuckle

Sources too numerous to list.
Where do you get yours?

Sources that are not so biased?

Myopic in perspective>

 

[Orbit]

This is sad: Landlord kills six-year-old Muslim boy and stabs mother in Illinois hate crime