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Verifiable evidence for creationism?

Is there any verifiable evidence for creationism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 19.0%
  • No

    Votes: 85 81.0%

  • Total voters
    105

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Moreover, if we look at what's happening when we look at it as a light wave, then we see that the light is moving as a wave in all directions and spreading. We observe when a light particle can be at a specific time and then make some assumption about its spread (?). I'm not sure how it can be depicted in virtual reality. In VR, we see that a particle travels in a straight line. With VR, we see that it is traveling in all kinds of directions including spinning in both directions at once. Thus, the particles can be plotted and then this graph is spread. It depicts how the light particles are traveling in a spiral wave or other types of waves. How can we apply this thinking to the photo we are looking at or how does the photo show this? I don't know if I am making myself clear, but the video below explains the actions of light particles as a wave.

OK, the spiral is not the path of the particle. Instead, it describes a complex number at each point that can be used to determine probabilities about the particle. The 'path' of the particle is still along that same line as the classical particle would have gone. The difference in quantum mechanics is that we don't have definition positions for the particle: only probabilities.

For the light coming from a star or nebula, there are many, many, many particles like this. The result of averaging their effects is a classical wave (in this case an electromagnetic wave).

In essence, a camera reacts to the photons coming in. For the older photographic films, the photons cause a change in silver atoms that allow the photograph to be 'developed' chemically. For more modern cameras (including those on Hubble), the cameras actually count the number of photons caught in small regions.


EDIT: I guess what I am getting at is how can we show what's happening in the Pillars of Creation using VR?

Well, I'm not good at making such videos. And the quantum effects you mentioned are not particularly relevant here. But I would show the cool hydrogen of the pillars pushing up through the rest of the nebula, causing the gas in front of it to be contracted. Then, gravity increases the density by pulling that gas together (an effect you seem to miss before---when gas clouds are large enough, the gravity involved is significant for how the cloud develops). When it condenses enough, we get a small ball of gas that has heated up with a smaller cloud of gas and dust around it. This corresponds to the Laplace nebula. In the pictures of the Eagle nebula, though, the parts corresponding to what Laplace was talking about are very, very small 'nodules' on the pillars. Remember that the pillars are light years across and our solar system is about a light-day across. So a solar system is much, much, much smaller than one of these pillars. And a single star is small compared to that.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Polymath257, maybe here is where we take a break and review. Because what I think we are looking at is a 4th dimensional object.

I think you understand that we can't really "see" a 3-dimensional object. We can understand it only because we have a higher-plane view of it in our heads. Another way to grasp this concept is the idea of Flatlanders or 2-dimensional people. We know from our 3-D view what they look like and what Flatland looks like. However, in their view all they see are lines. Yet, they're able to recognize people and objects in Flatland. This is because they are able to "see" a 3-D view in their minds. In our case, we have to have a view of our world from the 4th dimension and thus be able to recognize 3-D objects. What we actually see are 2-D images, but our minds are able to process it as 3-D because we have a view of our world from the 4th dimension or higher dimension.


Thus, in order to understand what we are looking at if those photos of the Pillars of Creation from Hubble are that of a 4th dimensional object, we need to have a view of it from the 5th dimension or higher. It seems to me that we are trying to process it as a 3-dimensional object.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Thus, in order to understand what we are looking at if those photos of the Pillars of Creation from Hubble are that of a 4th dimensional object, we need to have a view of it from the 5th dimension or higher. It seems to me that we are trying to process it as a 3-dimensional object.

Huh??? The pillars are three dimensional. Possibly four dimensional if you include time. But any given time slice is three dimensional. Why would you think otherwise????
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Answer me this since you know so much from reading wiki :rolleyes:, what causes the nuclear fusion in these massive clouds (what's holding the cloud together as it spins)? The nebula theory all seems like a nice system to create galaxies, but how can something like this make everything work like our Milky Way galaxy?

You do understand that after your last chastisement for referring to a wiki article I linked you directly to a Britannica article on the same topic, right? Also, given how many conversations we've had here, it's a bit laughable that you think my knowledge is only based on how much I know from "reading Wiki."
(You've yet to point a discrepancy between the Wiki article on Stellar Nucleosynthesis and the one from Britannica...but I digress.)

Fusion doesn't just happen "in these massive clouds." It occurs within the constantly accumulating densities of that cloud - and only in a mass that will eventually become the star itself. The fusion aspect is simply a product of enormous amounts of matter falling in on itself, creating denser and denser pockets of gravity. If there's enough "stuff" nearby one of these dense pockets, and enough matter gets pulled into it, then fusion can occur (with enough force), ignition can happen (with enough fuel), and a star is born...

star - Star formation and evolution | astronomy
"Detailed radio maps of nearby molecular clouds reveal that they are clumpy, with regions containing a wide range of densities—from a few tens of molecules (mostly hydrogen) per cubic centimetre to more than one million. Stars form only from the densest regions, termed cloud cores, though they need not lie at the geometric centre of the cloud."

"As the central temperature and density continue to rise, the proton-proton and carbon cycles become active, and the development of the (now genuine) star is stabilized. The star then reaches the main sequence, where it remains for most of its active life. The time required for the contraction phase depends on the mass of the star. A star of the Sun’s mass generally requires tens of millions of years to reach the main sequence, whereas one of much greater mass might take a few hundred thousand years."

"The formation of stars in associations is the most common outcome; bound clusters account for only about 1 to 10 percent of all star births. The overall efficiency of star formation in associations is quite small. Typically less than 1 percent of the mass of a molecular cloud becomes stars in one crossing time of the molecular cloud (about 5 106 years). Low efficiency of star formation presumably explains why any interstellar gas remains in the Galaxy after 1010 years of evolution. Star formation at the present time must be a mere trickle of the torrent that occurred when the Galaxy was young."


Frequently Asked Questions About Stars
http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~reipurth/reviews/larson.pdf
The physics of star formation - IOPscience
http://herschel.esac.esa.int/TheUniverseExploredByHerschel/presentations/4-1510_HenningT.pdf
https://www.astro.umd.edu/~richard/ASTRO421/star formation.pdf


And speaking of sources...
At some point you're going to have to actually compare and contrast the talking points that you're making (on behalf on Creation.com and AIG) and realize that of the two positions here, only one is actually based on collected observational data... The other is based on the dogmatic need for established science to be wrong... The fact that your only contradictory sources are based on religious bias should tell you something, don't you think?

You can learn about Star Formation and Cosmological timelines at any accredited educational facility in the United States; or the whole world for that matter. Or you can learn about debunking the foundational understandings of Astronomical research at a handful of places - places that don't actually do field study or research... Which do you think is really the best source?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Huh??? The pillars are three dimensional. Possibly four dimensional if you include time. But any given time slice is three dimensional. Why would you think otherwise????

I am including time because you said they were 7K light years away. It's like looking for a jet that created a sonic boom and and we have that as a signature. The boom is delayed as an analogy (understand there is no sound in space for the cretins here). So the photo we are seeing has a time element. Let's say we have a ship that can travel at speed of light, it's still no good. However, let's assume it isn't 7K light years away, but 4 years time in our speedy craft. Unless you factor that in, then we're not going to find it. It's a moving object and positive time is a direction. That's why I consider it's a 4-dimensional object. Once we are in our ship and moving, then it's considered a 3-D object.
 
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james bond

Well-Known Member
You do understand that after your last chastisement for referring to a wiki article I linked you directly to a Britannica article on the same topic, right? Also, given how many conversations we've had here, it's a bit laughable that you think my knowledge is only based on how much I know from "reading Wiki."
(You've yet to point a discrepancy between the Wiki article on Stellar Nucleosynthesis and the one from Britannica...but I digress.)

Fusion doesn't just happen "in these massive clouds." It occurs within the constantly accumulating densities of that cloud - and only in a mass that will eventually become the star itself. The fusion aspect is simply a product of enormous amounts of matter falling in on itself, creating denser and denser pockets of gravity. If there's enough "stuff" nearby one of these dense pockets, and enough matter gets pulled into it, then fusion can occur (with enough force), ignition can happen (with enough fuel), and a star is born...

star - Star formation and evolution | astronomy
"Detailed radio maps of nearby molecular clouds reveal that they are clumpy, with regions containing a wide range of densities—from a few tens of molecules (mostly hydrogen) per cubic centimetre to more than one million. Stars form only from the densest regions, termed cloud cores, though they need not lie at the geometric centre of the cloud."

"As the central temperature and density continue to rise, the proton-proton and carbon cycles become active, and the development of the (now genuine) star is stabilized. The star then reaches the main sequence, where it remains for most of its active life. The time required for the contraction phase depends on the mass of the star. A star of the Sun’s mass generally requires tens of millions of years to reach the main sequence, whereas one of much greater mass might take a few hundred thousand years."

"The formation of stars in associations is the most common outcome; bound clusters account for only about 1 to 10 percent of all star births. The overall efficiency of star formation in associations is quite small. Typically less than 1 percent of the mass of a molecular cloud becomes stars in one crossing time of the molecular cloud (about 5 106 years). Low efficiency of star formation presumably explains why any interstellar gas remains in the Galaxy after 1010 years of evolution. Star formation at the present time must be a mere trickle of the torrent that occurred when the Galaxy was young."


Frequently Asked Questions About Stars
http://www.ifa.hawaii.edu/~reipurth/reviews/larson.pdf
The physics of star formation - IOPscience
http://herschel.esac.esa.int/TheUniverseExploredByHerschel/presentations/4-1510_HenningT.pdf
https://www.astro.umd.edu/~richard/ASTRO421/star formation.pdf


And speaking of sources...
At some point you're going to have to actually compare and contrast the talking points that you're making (on behalf on Creation.com and AIG) and realize that of the two positions here, only one is actually based on collected observational data... The other is based on the dogmatic need for established science to be wrong... The fact that your only contradictory sources are based on religious bias should tell you something, don't you think?

You can learn about Star Formation and Cosmological timelines at any accredited educational facility in the United States; or the whole world for that matter. Or you can learn about debunking the foundational understandings of Astronomical research at a handful of places - places that don't actually do field study or research... Which do you think is really the best source?

I'll have to get back to you. I want to finish my conversation with Polymath257 about theoretical physics.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Polymath257, I'm putting on my theoretical physics hat. We've talked about the multiple dimensions, we've talked about deep space and quantum mechanics. Those are subjects more familiar to you than me, but I'm capable of wearing my divergent thinking cap. What I am saying is, if time+ is a direction and the Pillars of Creation photo from Hubble is an object from the 4th dimension, then that photo of the object is not the past, but the future. If we had ship that could travel at the speed of light, then ride it for one hour around the earth and came back, then people on earth would be older while we aged only one hour. The last sentence is fact.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I am including time because you said they were 7K light years away. It's like looking for a jet that created a sonic boom and and we have that as a signature. The boom is delayed as an analogy (understand there is no sound in space for the cretins here). So the photo we are seeing has a time element. Let's say we have a ship that can travel at speed of light, it's still no good. However, let's assume it isn't 7K light years away, but 4 years time in our speedy craft. Unless you factor that in, then we're not going to find it. It's a moving object and positive time is a direction. That's why I consider it's a 4-dimensional object. Once we are in our ship and moving, then it's considered a 3-D object.

... This analogy would make more sense if all physical interactions weren't already based on the space/time scenarios that you're trying to describe. Time is an element of all interactions, from the vast cosmological ones to the daily mundane.

For example, there's a delay between the time it takes for light to leave a light source, bounce off an object, enter your eyes, and be processed as an image by your brain. What you're seeing when you look at this screen, right now, is not the actual moment that you imagine it to be.

Let that sink in for a second. The Laws that dictate how far away an object is, and how we measure that distance, does not change just because one is "in space" and the other is in your room. All things are "in space".

If you're outdoors, the sunlight hitting you right now is roughly 8 minutes old. If you're indoors, the time it takes for lamp light to reach you is about 1 foot per nanosecond. So, assuming you're 3 feet away from a light source, it took 3 nanoseconds for that light to illuminate the object you're currently seeing. (There's a time allotment for your synapses firings as well, but that's a different branch of science and I don't want to get too far off track) Our brains have adapted to these realities, giving us a seamless interpretation of the world around us - but our interpretations don't make the delays any less true.

A craft that could travel at the speed of light would take 7,000 years to arrive at an object 7,000 light years away...That's the relationship between the speed of light and a light year; direct. Changing the distance/time variable does nothing to alter the science behind arriving at a destination.(Making it 4 light years away instead of 7,000 is pointless - You could make it 8 seconds away - that wouldn't matter) We do this all the time when we land objects on other planetary surfaces throughout the solar system - or when we insert an object into orbit around those objects. The physical placement of the planetary bodies at the time of Earth departure is not the same at the time of their arrival, right? So we have to prepare for a trajectory that would allow for arrival at a proposed position in the future. The science that allows for this is the exact same science that allows us to measure the distance of far away objects as well - there' just a little bit more math involved.

If you can run a route on a fly ball in the outfield that gets you close enough to catch it, then you can understand this principle. The science of the act may be complicated - but the act itself is not.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I'll have to get back to you. I want to finish my conversation with Polymath257 about theoretical physics.

Whatever you want to do - but they're all part of the same conversation, really. The forces and laws that dictate things like stellar formation are the same forces and laws that produce planetary systems, drive localized planet/moon relationships, and affect every part of your daily life.

Polymath257, I'm putting on my theoretical physics hat. We've talked about the multiple dimensions, we've talked about deep space and quantum mechanics. Those are subjects more familiar to you than me, but I'm capable of wearing my divergent thinking cap. What I am saying is, if time+ is a direction and the Pillars of Creation photo from Hubble is an object from the 4th dimension, then that photo of the object is not the past, but the future. If we had ship that could travel at the speed of light, then ride it for one hour around the earth and came back, then people on earth would be older while we aged only one hour. The last sentence is fact.

What you're missing in all of this is that things both near and far all play by the same rules.

The image that your brain is processing of the screen in front of you right now is actually an image from the past. It's old data. It's very, very, very, very recent. But it's still an old image. When you look up at the moon at night - you're looking at light that's 1.3 seconds old. Your view of the moon is delayed - meaning you're looking at the past. When you watch the sunset at dusk, you're seeing light that's 8 minutes old. The beautiful colors are more recent - the light that makes them took 8 minutes to travel there - meaning you're, again, looking at the past. When you peer deep into space on a clear night and stare out with amazement at all the pinhole embers above you, you're looking at images that are anywhere from four to thousands of light years away... That means the light from those objects, in many cases, is thousands of years old. The night sky is, literally, nothing but a giant view of the past.

Your argument that any image is somehow a vision of the future makes no sense at all...

There is a difference here between light and sound, because the two things happen at different speeds. We all know this. But what's taken for granted is that even the seemingly instant response we have to the light of the moment is also a trick of our minds. It's an image that's a few nanoseconds removed from the actual moment of the event; something our processing and senses can't pick up. It's hard to detect. But even the visible explosion is an image of the past, only slightly less pronounced than the traveling (and visible) shock wave or the delayed sounds of the explosion.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Polymath257, I'm putting on my theoretical physics hat. We've talked about the multiple dimensions, we've talked about deep space and quantum mechanics. Those are subjects more familiar to you than me, but I'm capable of wearing my divergent thinking cap. What I am saying is, if time+ is a direction and the Pillars of Creation photo from Hubble is an object from the 4th dimension, then that photo of the object is not the past, but the future.
Nope. If you think of it as a 4 dimensional construct, we still see the 3 dimensional cross section in the photos. And that 3 dimensional cross section is from the past because of the time it takes light to travel.

If we had ship that could travel at the speed of light, then ride it for one hour around the earth and came back, then people on earth would be older while we aged only one hour. The last sentence is fact.

This is a bit garbled. You cannot go *at* the speed of light. You can go slightly less. If you go, say, at 99% of the speed of light and you go for an hour, then the people on Earth would age about 7 hours. But that isn't time travel.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
... This analogy would make more sense if all physical interactions weren't already based on the space/time scenarios that you're trying to describe. Time is an element of all interactions, from the vast cosmological ones to the daily mundane.

For example, there's a delay between the time it takes for light to leave a light source, bounce off an object, enter your eyes, and be processed as an image by your brain. What you're seeing when you look at this screen, right now, is not the actual moment that you imagine it to be.

Let that sink in for a second. The Laws that dictate how far away an object is, and how we measure that distance, does not change just because one is "in space" and the other is in your room. All things are "in space".

If you're outdoors, the sunlight hitting you right now is roughly 8 minutes old. If you're indoors, the time it takes for lamp light to reach you is about 1 foot per nanosecond. So, assuming you're 3 feet away from a light source, it took 3 nanoseconds for that light to illuminate the object you're currently seeing. (There's a time allotment for your synapses firings as well, but that's a different branch of science and I don't want to get too far off track) Our brains have adapted to these realities, giving us a seamless interpretation of the world around us - but our interpretations don't make the delays any less true.

I would point out, though, that the timing for the synapses is HUGELY more significant for something 3 feet away. Brain processing takes tens to hundreds of milli-seconds, as opposed to nanoseconds for the time of flight of the light itself.

A craft that could travel at the speed of light would take 7,000 years to arrive at an object 7,000 light years away...That's the relationship between the speed of light and a light year; direct. Changing the distance/time variable does nothing to alter the science behind arriving at a destination.(Making it 4 light years away instead of 7,000 is pointless - You could make it 8 seconds away - that wouldn't matter) We do this all the time when we land objects on other planetary surfaces throughout the solar system - or when we insert an object into orbit around those objects. The physical placement of the planetary bodies at the time of Earth departure is not the same at the time of their arrival, right? So we have to prepare for a trajectory that would allow for arrival at a proposed position in the future. The science that allows for this is the exact same science that allows us to measure the distance of far away objects as well - there' just a little bit more math involved.

If you can run a route on a fly ball in the outfield that gets you close enough to catch it, then you can understand this principle. The science of the act may be complicated - but the act itself is not.

Well, if you were going that 7000 light years at close to the speed of light, *you* would not age the full 7000 years because of time dilation effects. the exact scaling factor depends on your speed. But if you were going, say, 99.9999% of the speed of light, you would age about 10 years when covering that distance (although it would seem like about 10 light years for you).

Why JB thinks this would make our picture from the future I have no idea.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I would point out, though, that the timing for the synapses is HUGELY more significant for something 3 feet away. Brain processing takes tens to hundreds of milli-seconds, as opposed to nanoseconds for the time of flight of the light itself.
Absolutely true - but I'm trying really hard to avoid adding ANOTHER topic to this whole thing.

Well, if you were going that 7000 light years at close to the speed of light, *you* would not age the full 7000 years because of time dilation effects. the exact scaling factor depends on your speed. But if you were going, say, 99.9999% of the speed of light, you would age about 10 years when covering that distance (although it would seem like about 10 light years for you).
Relativity is beautifully trippy once you begin to wrap your head around the principles of the whole of the science. "Relative constructs based on perspective" seems like a no-brainer. But people have a hard time extrapolating what seem like small concepts in their daily lives onto larger settings, do you know what I mean?

My formal education is in interpersonal dynamics and business relations - but all-things-Space has been my hobby of mine for as long as I can remember. I'm just hoping to establish at least a basic cohesive understanding among people who show a bit of common interest in this field.

For people like JB, I think it's more important to connect the large dots than to worry so much about the small ones. (Major constellations are easier to see and remember than the minor constellations... You get me?)
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
I want you to understand the process of complex chemical origin before you start having debates about it on the internet... I want you to read the links that have been provided to you that you can approach a conversation with at least an introductory level of understanding of the topic.

For example, if you want to debate @Polymath257 about where surface gold came from, you need to understand how ALL heavy metals were synthesized to begin with, don't you think? As it stands, you don't even recognize that your claims of bombardment contradict your argument for planetary formation using Creationist models... (Where did those meteorites and asteroids come from?) That's a problem in regular conversation, but an even bigger issue in debate. (It's what deductive reasoning is all about. If you can't think property - what does that say about your conclusions?)

I don't think you're being intellectually dishonest. I think you're just plainly ignorant of the topics you wish to discuss, which can be remedied - but you have to actually read about the topics for that to happen.

This is another example of what I'm talking about.... You don't even recognize that you're sharing the same phenomena, on the same planet, taken by the same camera and calling it two different things, do you?

Both images were taken by the HiRISE camera aboard the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO). One image comes from Horowitz Crater; the other from Newton Crater... Explain to me, Mr. Bond, how one is "wind blowing the sand" and one is "water flow".

Also, you're ignoring that fact that both images discredit your argument that water exists on Earth and nowhere else... because of fine tuning.

NASA - Image Gallery

Your first statement is silly and condescending. Are you a chemist? Is that what you want to discuss or do you have a point to make so I can relate it to complex chemical origin. I don't have to learn the evolutionary viewpoint on topics. That's what you are arguing and should explain. Instead of letting a link make your argument and "educate people." Instead, bring up some points. What do you want to discuss out of complex chemicals and their origins? .

Leave Polymath257 out of this. He and I discussed several topics before and have built up to this point. He can understand and he also explains it to me and is not condescending. I don't think you're a 180 IQ. Much lower than that. A person with 180 iq should be able to explain things cogently. You really haven't explained much, but just tossed out condescending remarks and links I have to read, so they can make an argument or explain for you. Usually, I just LMAO and think the other person is a cretin. Instead, why don't you make the point that you want, get the information from the article and briefly explain how it backs up your point. Then you can place the link underneath that for everyone to read. Anyone should be able to figure out what you are talking about including me.

>>about where surface gold came from, you need to understand how ALL heavy metals were synthesized to begin with, don't you think? As it stands, you don't even recognize that your claims of bombardment contradict your argument for planetary formation using Creationist models... (Where did those meteorites and asteroids come from?) That's a problem in regular conversation, but an even bigger issue in debate. (It's what deductive reasoning is all about. If you can't think property - what does that say about your conclusions?).<<

I suppose you believe this article -- https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110907132044.htm , and that the meteor was formed from dust in outer space? Before this you were saying gold was formed on earth when the planet was forming. Thus, I asked why isn't the gold spread out? You couldn't answer that. Now, you've found this meteor theory. The meteor theory is rampant throughout so called evolutionary thinking. For example, when evo thinking gets stuck, they use the meteor as another way that life can start on another planet. I used it once against atheists in stating that if any life exists outside of earth such as the moon, then it was brought from earth. For example, a meteor chunk from earth with microbes on it hit the moon. The evos said no that can't happen. Evo thinking says the moon was formed when a chunk of the earth was tossed into space. These people want their cake and eat it, too. Much of evo thinking is the same way. It's part of their imaginary beliefs.

What I said about my gold beliefs were that a supernova exploded and then the gold that had formed inside it plopped into several places on earth. That's it. Thus, gold isn't everywhere. Most of it is underneath the surface deep in the ground. And what do you mean by syntheisized? I assume you're lumping gold with the other heavy elements.

That's my hypothesis. My friend says that's one theory. We didn't have time to get into what he thought. There's others like your meteorite theory. Another is the colliding of neuron stars. Here's a link discussing the various thinking. Some creationists believe God created it (gold is mentioned many times, but no origins). Mine is similar to the one on top.

https://www.quora.com/Where-did-the-gold-on-Earth-come-from

>>I don't think you're being intellectually dishonest. I think you're just plainly ignorant of the topics you wish to discuss, which can be remedied - but you have to actually read about the topics for that to happen.<<

No, I don't understand the points you are trying to make because you've read several articles and I haven't. You expect me to read these evo thinking articles, accept it as truth and then discuss with you. I'm arguing creation science views, so why do I need to be educated on that? Besides, I have my own sources to look up evo thinking. Thus, make an argument first instead of letting wikipedia or some article make it for you. I'll usually ignore people who do that.

>>Also, you're ignoring that fact that both images discredit your argument that water exists on Earth and nowhere else... because of fine tuning.<<

Where did I say that? Now, you're putting words in my mouth. I said to explain how all the water on earth came to be? I haven't heard any fine tuning water argument, but maybe there is. Doesn't the necessity for water to start life come from evolutionary thinking?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
The gold and other elements are in the nebula, which was seeded from supernova.


The formation of a stellar system like this takes a few hundred million years. And we see the processes happening in the nebula *today*. We see *several* different systems at various stages of formation.



What?????? Are you thinking before you post something like this? The scale alone is many orders of magnitude off. These nebula are tens of light-years across and have masses of hundreds of times that of the sun.

>>The gold and other elements are in the nebula, which was seeded from supernova.<<

I don't disagree the supernova, but your theory as part of the nebula isn't one I read about. There was an article I read that the core took the gold and that it is found in the core. We can't get to that. I was referring to the gold we are can and are trying to get to. There are various theories on how gold got to earth.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Your first statement is silly and condescending. Are you a chemist? Is that what you want to discuss or do you have a point to make so I can relate it to complex chemical origin. I don't have to learn the evolutionary viewpoint on topics. That's what you are arguing and should explain. Instead of letting a link make your argument and "educate people." Instead, bring up some points. What do you want to discuss out of complex chemicals and their origins? .
As has been said many times over the course of this thread, and in this conversation in particular, all things evolve, adapt, and change. (All. Things.) This is just as true of heavy elements and complex chemical combinations as it is of plants, animals, waterways, and landscapes.

Every single aspect of the observable Universe can be broken down to its fundamental building blocks. Doing so allows for a more complete understanding of how and why something exists as it does.

For example, a pyramid is nothing without large blocks of stone, correct? A large block of stone is nothing without a substrate from which it was formed. That particular substrate is nothing without a creative process proceeding it. In the example of Egyptian pyramids, the most commonly used substrates were sand, sandstones, shells, and mud. If you want to know anything at all about the structural rigidity of an individual block, or of an entire pyramid, you need to know at least a little bit about the materials used to make the blocks, wouldn't you agree?

If you, or anyone else for that matter, is going to have a conversation about how and why any type of element exists on any planetary body anywhere in the cosmos, you need to first understand the chemical and/or physical makeup of the object that you're referring to. In this particular conversation, you're talking about Gold. But that is not the only rare precious metal, is it? That's not the only heavy material that is oddly lacking form the surface of the Earth, is it? (It is not...) And as such, by asking the right questions and attempting to understand the right things, you can answer not only your conundrum about the placement and location of Gold, but about many other geologic questions as well.

Leave Polymath257 out of this. He and I discussed several topics before and have built up to this point. He can understand and he also explains it to me and is not condescending. I don't think you're a 180 IQ. Much lower than that. A person with 180 iq should be able to explain things cogently. You really haven't explained much, but just tossed out condescending remarks and links I have to read, so they can make an argument or explain for you. Usually, I just LMAO and think the other person is a cretin. Instead, why don't you make the point that you want, get the information from the article and briefly explain how it backs up your point. Then you can place the link underneath that for everyone to read. Anyone should be able to figure out what you are talking about including me.

We have access to unfathomable amounts of human knowledge at our fingertips every single day, usually hanging out on a device in our pockets. And yet, for some reason, even with all of this access to self-learning and self-help options (on nearly any topic imaginable) we still have to engage with people who think a global flood and 1,000 year human lifespans is somehow a logical and rational view of historical events... If I come across as condescending, it's out of frustration with often-repeated-but-nary-substantiated claims which attempt to contradict well established, well reasoned, and easily accessible scientific understandings.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I suppose you believe this article -- https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110907132044.htm , and that the meteor was formed from dust in outer space? Before this you were saying gold was formed on earth when the planet was forming. Thus, I asked why isn't the gold spread out? You couldn't answer that. Now, you've found this meteor theory. The meteor theory is rampant throughout so called evolutionary thinking. For example, when evo thinking gets stuck, they use the meteor as another way that life can start on another planet. I used it once against atheists in stating that if any life exists outside of earth such as the moon, then it was brought from earth. For example, a meteor chunk from earth with microbes on it hit the moon. The evos said no that can't happen. Evo thinking says the moon was formed when a chunk of the earth was tossed into space. These people want their cake and eat it, too. Much of evo thinking is the same way. It's part of their imaginary beliefs.

I don't believe that I have to answer questions that are so easily explained by well-written and referenced articles. It would be a better use of everyone's time if those articles were actually read, as part of the flow of conversation, instead of constantly criticized for simply existing...

(Point of reference, I have been able to respond to sections of your links in previous engagements because I have actually taken the time to read them before responding to you. You have linked them, afterall, meaning that they are part of your statement or argument. I am generally well aware of the creationist position on certain topics, and don't need much more than a few paragraphs before I'm certain that I won't be reading anything new. But I still open them and read them so I can understand where you're coming from or what you're trying to say.)

To briefly address this part directly - yes. All objects in a solar system are an accumulation of various materials that were left over in the protoplanetary disk before forming into whatever their current iterations are. The materials that make up the Earth, the Moon, all of the other planets, moons, and all of the other system debris that currently orbits the sun are localized accumulations of the "dust" that began coalescing around our Sun as its mass (and thus gravity) increased. There is no other method by which these materials and objects could possibly exist if not for a previous synthesis in the belly of a former star.

For reference, and to make it clear that I am directly linking my explanation here to an article that I want you to read for any clarification that you might need, please see the following articles from Britannica:
nucleosynthesis | chemical process
accretion disk | astronomy
asteroid | astronomy

When you ask why gold isn't evenly distrubuted - you're actually asking why isn't anything evenly distributed or at least consistently accessible. To answer that question, you need to know a little bit about weights, densities, formation, and geology. It would take a bunch of links to make it all clear, so I'll simplify it as much as possible... Some stuff sank to the core. Some stuff couldn't because of barriers formed while cooling. Some stuff was converted to different substances due to geologic processes. And some other stuff we simply don't know about. (There are still places we haven't been and things we haven't found - meaning our map isn't complete.)

So there you go. In order for gold to have come to this planet by outside sources (solar objects like comets, meteorites, etc) they would have had to first been available for accumulation during the accretion process at the early stages of system formation - meaning the elements preexisted in the "dust" that would become everything we've ever known... (See how it all works together?)

What I said about my gold beliefs were that a supernova exploded and then the gold that had formed inside it plopped into several places on earth. That's it. Thus, gold isn't everywhere. Most of it is underneath the surface deep in the ground. And what do you mean by syntheisized? I assume you're lumping gold with the other heavy elements.

The first part of your belief is accurate - that same process applies to every other element heavier than hydrogen and helium.

Gold, and all other elements, were formed under the same processes, basically the same way, just using different ingredients, quantities, temperatures, and pressures...

1920px-18-column_medium-long_periodic_table.png


Another helpful article:
http://www.haystack.mit.edu/edu/pcr/Astrochemistry/3 - MATTER/nuclear synthesis.pdf


That's my hypothesis. My friend says that's one theory. We didn't have time to get into what he thought. There's others like your meteorite theory. Another is the colliding of neuron stars. Here's a link discussing the various thinking. Some creationists believe God created it (gold is mentioned many times, but no origins). Mine is similar to the one on top.

One of those ideas is not like the others...

No, I don't understand the points you are trying to make because you've read several articles and I haven't. You expect me to read these evo thinking articles, accept it as truth and then discuss with you. I'm arguing creation science views, so why do I need to be educated on that? Besides, I have my own sources to look up evo thinking. Thus, make an argument first instead of letting wikipedia or some article make it for you. I'll usually ignore people who do that.

If you want to be taken seriously in conversation about these topics, then yes. I want you to read well-established scientific articles and discuss these topics with a basic level of proficiency. I would want that of anyone. If you have a like or fascination with space at all, then please spend more time learning about it and growing in that capacity. Just don't interject magic or ignorance where it doesn't belong. The reason that you can suggest in previous responses, for example, that Hubble photos from deep space are somehow images of the future is a good example of what happens when a mind is trying to make sense of something it doesn't yet grasp. That's not a dig. It's simply a true statement.

I have a cousin who thinks he can build an antigravity device using plans he found on the internet. We would both agree that there are some thing about basic science that he's overlooking, right? Correcting our thought processes is important.

Where did I say that? Now, you're putting words in my mouth. I said to explain how all the water on earth came to be? I haven't heard any fine tuning water argument, but maybe there is. Doesn't the necessity for water to start life come from evolutionary thinking?

"Moreover, the amount of water we have on the planet is so much that no other planet has it. Hawking confirms this by his fine-tuning and multiverse argument which I posted already, so I post for the crowd here. To balance it out, I post the fine-tuning argument by Eric Metaxas."
Verifiable evidence for creationism?

The water on this planet, and all other bodies in the solar system, came from the same place that the gold did... from the "dust" of the accretion disk. It was all part of the dense grouping of particles that existed in our little corner of the Universe just before our Sun began it's life - a place already filled with ejected elements that were formed in the bellies of long-extinct stars.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
>>The gold and other elements are in the nebula, which was seeded from supernova.<<

I don't disagree the supernova, but your theory as part of the nebula isn't one I read about. There was an article I read that the core took the gold and that it is found in the core. We can't get to that. I was referring to the gold we are can and are trying to get to. There are various theories on how gold got to earth.

Again, yes, the gold and all elements that are now on the Earth were part of the nebula that the sun and solar system condensed out of. Gravity tends to bring the heavier elements down towards the center, which is part of what the rocky planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars) are closer to the sun. For each planet, the process repeats. The heavier elements *tend* to go to the center. Which is why the Earth has an Iron/Nickel core. But there is not a complete mixing before the planet solidifies, which is why we still see iron and nickel at the surface. The same is true for gold (and, again, for *all* the heavier elements). In this, there is NOTHING unusual about gold. It doesn't react chemically as much as most other elements, so we find pure gold much more than we find, say, pure copper or iron. But there isn't anything about the distribution of gold that is stranger than, say, the distribution of Uranium or Erbium.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
As has been said many times over the course of this thread, and in this conversation in particular, all things evolve, adapt, and change. (All. Things.) This is just as true of heavy elements and complex chemical combinations as it is of plants, animals, waterways, and landscapes.

Every single aspect of the observable Universe can be broken down to its fundamental building blocks. Doing so allows for a more complete understanding of how and why something exists as it does.

For example, a pyramid is nothing without large blocks of stone, correct? A large block of stone is nothing without a substrate from which it was formed. That particular substrate is nothing without a creative process proceeding it. In the example of Egyptian pyramids, the most commonly used substrates were sand, sandstones, shells, and mud. If you want to know anything at all about the structural rigidity of an individual block, or of an entire pyramid, you need to know at least a little bit about the materials used to make the blocks, wouldn't you agree?

If you, or anyone else for that matter, is going to have a conversation about how and why any type of element exists on any planetary body anywhere in the cosmos, you need to first understand the chemical and/or physical makeup of the object that you're referring to. In this particular conversation, you're talking about Gold. But that is not the only rare precious metal, is it? That's not the only heavy material that is oddly lacking form the surface of the Earth, is it? (It is not...) And as such, by asking the right questions and attempting to understand the right things, you can answer not only your conundrum about the placement and location of Gold, but about many other geologic questions as well.



We have access to unfathomable amounts of human knowledge at our fingertips every single day, usually hanging out on a device in our pockets. And yet, for some reason, even with all of this access to self-learning and self-help options (on nearly any topic imaginable) we still have to engage with people who think a global flood and 1,000 year human lifespans is somehow a logical and rational view of historical events... If I come across as condescending, it's out of frustration with often-repeated-but-nary-substantiated claims which attempt to contradict well established, well reasoned, and easily accessible scientific understandings.

I think I've said that in other posts in that as the start of scientific knowledge is to look for the source. Let's stick to gold. The original source of it is debatable. You believe what Science Daily proposes in that meteors brought it to earth. That doesn't really give us a source. The two theories that provide the source are supernova, i.e. capable of forming heavy elements and its explosion can send it careening in space to an already formed earth. (Notice the difference between what creation science believes and the nebula hypothesis/theory.) Some people believe in nebula and that gold was accumulated within the planet and is now in the core. I don't believe this. Now, there's another theory gold and other exotic radioactivity was caused by the collision of dead stars. This is the American theory from Harvard-Smithsonian, c2013, and not the British one in the article you posted. It says that observing gamma ray bursts from GRB 130603B showed a different afterglow from the typical one. The light behaved as that from various exotic radioactive elements. One of which was gold. They estimate that the cache size is 10x that of the moon. That's a lot of bling.

Origin of gold is likely in rare neutron-star collisions

EDIT: Why am I giving more weight to this hypothesis than meteors? It says this is the first time they have direct evidence by the various radioactive elements observed in GRB 130603B.

I'm just going to let the last paragraph go and you can continue you believe what theory tickles your fancy. All you're doing is regurgitating what they tell you. I'll stick to facts, reasoning and historical truths and searching for the truth.
 
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