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Verifiable evidence for creationism?

Is there any verifiable evidence for creationism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 20 19.0%
  • No

    Votes: 85 81.0%

  • Total voters
    105

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
So, it'd just a hypothesis, not a scientific theory, right? I beg you to look up the well known tern "scientific theory" so you understand the difference between mere "theories".

WIKIPEDIA

).[50][51]
Examples of scientific theories[edit]
[]
[]

[]

So a 'scientific theory' is one which has no empirical evidence but appeals to certain institutionalized academic institutions on the basis if it's predetermined conclusions?

or correct me if I am wrong, and show me where M-theory, for example, has been repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation !!

In reality 'scientific theory' is a PR label slapped on a favored idea in lieu of any tangible evidence, a little like 'nice runner' on a used car, it's a red flag for most people.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
Lawrence Krauss does not explain quantum mechanics. We understand quantum mechanics better now such as quarks, pentaquarks and more extremely tiny particles.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with what he said in the video I posted, and even less to do with your assertion that he believes the Universe came from a literal "nothing".

Cosmic fine tuning is evidence that every little aspect of life is perfectly placed in order to sustain life. If altered even by the tiniest amount, life would not be able to exist. Its specificity could not have happened by chance. There are many examples of things so finely tuned, so it is considered a theory.
I have already explained why the fine tuning argument fails, but it appears you're ignoring any instance in which I destroy your arguments. So, I'm going to make this very simple and use Douglas Adam's analogy.

Imagine a puddle forming on the ground. In the morning, the puddle wakes up, and sees the world in which it exists. In particular, it looks at the small hole in the ground that holds it, and notes how the precise shape of the hole seems to fit the exact volume of water that he is made from, and concludes that this hole - and, in fact, this entire world, must have been specifically designed to have him in it. After-all, how could it ever be possible that, of all the places on earth, of all of the holes in the ground, that this specific body of water would happen to land in this specific place? It's so astronomically improbable that the only conclusion the puddle can reach is that this was all somehow intended, and that the world was specifically tailored for his existence. The puddle continues to believe this, even as the sun comes out and his body begins to shrink until their is nothing left of it.

Your logic is identical to the puddle. You are looking only at the situation that currently exists and saying "this specific set of circumstances, and this particular result of those circumstances, seem so specific that the given result must have been the intended one". This is really no different to saying "if things were different, then things would be different". What's more, for the argument to be successful, you first have to demonstrate how the specific set of circumstances under which life arose are the only set of circumstances under which life can arise in any form. Since we have no other examples of life, you cannot possibly assert that this is the case. If life arose on Mars, instead of on earth, you would still be making the exact same claim. If life had arose on a meteor instead of on earth, you would still be making the exact same claim. If life existed solely on the head of a pin, you would still be making the exact same claim. All we are currently aware of are the specific conditions under which life arose in our case, and we cannot make any assessment of how life may arise in similar, or even dissimilar, cases.

What's more, let's use the exact same argument and apply it to something else. Let's try applying it to my bedside table. In order for my bedside table to exist, the Universe must be VERY finely tuned. First, life needs to exist. Secondly, that life needs to develop some form of sentience and intelligence. Thirdly, that life needs to develop the ability to use tools and machines. Fourthly, that life needs to find the specific tree and carve out the specific shape of wood that my bedside cabinet is made from (remember, we're not talking about ANY bedside cabinet, we are talking specifically MY bedside cabinet, and therefore all the specific components that IT is made from, and not other, similar cabinets). So, using this logic, we can conclude that the Universe wasn't fine-tuned for life, but was in fact fine-tuned for my bedside cabinet, since the exact circumstances under which my bedside cabinet came into existence as far less likely to occur than the existence of life itself. The Universe surely only exists so that my bedside cabinet could exist.

Do you see the problem yet?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
My bad. Krauss was leftover from something else. Please disregard.

Sure, I can provide evidence for cosmic fine tuning, but much of is technical due to it involving very minute numbers which can produce a huge difference and involving complexity.

"The mass of the proton relative to the neutron is critical to regulating the primordial abundances of the chemical elements in the initial creation of matter. Shortly after the Big Bang, the ratio of neutrons to protons produced was related to the mass difference between these particles. Had this ratio been only 1% smaller an equal amount of neutrons and protons would have been produced. (Instead of 1 to 8 in our universe.) An equal or greater number of neutrons would have resulted in a universe with all helium and no hydrogen. (Our universe is about 74% hydrogen.) No hydrogen means no stable long lived stars like the sun and no life which requires hydrogen. Now if this ratio was only 0.2% larger protons would decay into neutrons and there would be no atoms at all."

http://rareuniverse.org/evidence_for_creation/finetuned.html
This is evidence for a designer because .... ?
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Too much ignorance here. If you want to call Paul Davies and Stephen Hawking absurd, then that's fine with me
badMA11788605-0002-1.gif

. Go read the liberal wikipedia on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe . It lists four very good sources [1-4] on top.
It seems to me your assertion was addressed head on and you simply dismissed it and instead posted an emoji. Does that pass for honest discourse in your world?
 

Shad

Veteran Member
It seems you do not understand scientific fine tuning.

Yes I do yet it has nothing to say about God. What you have done is take fine-tuning, science, and made it an argument for God, apologistics. I attacked you argument for God not the constants.

What do you mean "Fine-tuning as an argument from God?" And life has not (?) been shown to be abundant in the universe. It sounds like you're confusing Anthropic Principle with fine tuning. What assumptions am I supposed to test? I didn't continue because what are you talking about?

No, the anthropic principle and fine tuning argument are linked as a teleological argument. You used the very constants with in AP to argue for fine-tuning=God.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
WIKIPEDIA

).[50][51]
Examples of scientific theories[edit]
[]
.

Your own reference

"String theory is a theoretical framework that attempts to reconcile gravity and quantum mechanics. In string theory, the point-like particles of particle physics are replaced by one-dimensional objects called strings."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_theory

Self-refuting argument since you didn't both to read your own source. String theory and M-theory, built upon it, are both theoretical and consistent with math.
 
Last edited:

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Too much ignorance here. If you want to call Paul Davies and Stephen Hawking absurd, then that's fine with me
badMA11788605-0002-1.gif

. Go read the liberal wikipedia on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe . It lists four very good sources [1-4] on top.
If you actually read that article, it clearly states it is merely a hypothesis. It is not a theory, as it has not been confirmed with repeated experimentation and observation. Just because slight changes would make life impossible in no way supports your hypothesis that fine tuning was necessary. Your cited article proves my point. Sure, some scientists THINK it MIGHT be fine tuned, but there is no evidence beyond speculation that supports it. Thus, it is a mere hypothesis, not a scientific theory.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
You just defined evolution and not ToE as stated.

More to evolution than just your dictionary definition under this RF topic of Creationism vs Evolution. As stated before, this is what is being taught in schools and why Creationists want equal time. That's why the website is trying create a formal teaching of evolution called Evolution 101. It includes the whole ball of wax including evolutionary thought and origins of life. Creation science delves into it, too. Creationists want to create Creation 101.

If you want to teach Larmarck and Darwin, there were people before them such as Malthus and Lyell who influenced their thinking. It's all relative.
Can you provide any evidence that the ToE specifically extends beyond what I stated here. You have yet to do that.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
WIKIPEDIA

).[50][51]
Examples of scientific theories[edit]
[]
[]

[]

So a 'scientific theory' is one which has no empirical evidence but appeals to certain institutionalized academic institutions on the basis if it's predetermined conclusions?

or correct me if I am wrong, and show me where M-theory, for example, has been repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation !!

In reality 'scientific theory' is a PR label slapped on a favored idea in lieu of any tangible evidence, a little like 'nice runner' on a used car, it's a red flag for most people.
Your argument is wanting, as the definition excludes M-theory. Can you cite a scientific source that declares M Theory to be a scientific theory?
 

McBell

Unbound
we can't explain how life came into being with any past or existing atheist theories, so I'm skeptical of atheism. As an explanation it has constantly retreated into the shadows where science has not yet shone, and increasingly exists where it inherently, conveniently cannot investigate at all- panspermia- multiverses etc.
Yet you trust a claim that has zero objective empirical evidence?
 

McBell

Unbound
Atheist theories are theories proposed by self professed atheists with overt atheist implications, and explicitly cited by them and others as specifically supporting atheist beliefs.

Atheist Fred Hoyle proposed steady state explicitly to counter the 'religious pseudoscience' of a specific creation event like the Big Bang
Atheist Stephen Hawking likewise proposed the Big Crunch and posited that it 'made God redundant'
Atheist Richard Dawkins, the world's most prominent evolutionist's best selling book was called 'The God Delusion'
The fact that all the available objective empirical evidence indicates there is no need for your god does not make the theories surrounding them "atheist".
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Your argument is wanting, as the definition excludes M-theory. Can you cite a scientific source that declares M Theory to be a scientific theory?

It should be excluded but the term is used often. In practical terms the word 'scientific' is added to lend credence to an academically popular idea - like evolution, that is just a theory, an idea, a philosophical speculation, in lieu of direct empirical evidence.

the 'scientific' theory of evolution states that humans developed from a single cell through a series of lucky mutations and natural selection

Again, show me where this extraordinary claim has been repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation !!

Even the core premise - a process of slow smooth incremental transitions, must be merely imagined to exist. All we have are various interesting speculations for why this has still not been observed.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Cosmic fine tuning is evidence that every little aspect of life is perfectly placed in order to sustain life. If altered even by the tiniest amount, life would not be able to exist. Its specificity could not have happened by chance. There are many examples of things so finely tuned, so it is considered a theory.
That isn't entirely true. There are single-celled organisms which thrive in extreme conditions. Even if you want to ignore them, the fact of the matter is that life as we know it requires these 'Goldilocks conditions'
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
Yes I do yet it has nothing to say about God. What you have done is take fine-tuning, science, and made it an argument for God, apologistics. I attacked you argument for God not the constants.



No, the anthropic principle and fine tuning argument are linked as a teleological argument. You used the very constants with in AP to argue for fine-tuning=God.

I'm still not sure what you are talking about. You're accusing me of talking about God while I was talking about fine tuning and the Anthropic Principle (evolution). What I will point out is how science backs up the Bible. The Bible isn't a science book, but as time goes on, science ends up backing the Bible. This is wriiten up in articles in regular media such as the Business Insider.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
It seems to me your assertion was addressed head on and you simply dismissed it and instead posted an emoji. Does that pass for honest discourse in your world?

It's popular today to mix science with comedy as on Comedy Central or the Jon Stewart show, that's where I get it. I'll try to use comedy more. As for the discourse, I'm sure mr. leibowd84 will have something to say. I'll try to limit my posts and replies to three-in-a-row so as to not get stale and give others a chance.
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
If you actually read that article, it clearly states it is merely a hypothesis. It is not a theory, as it has not been confirmed with repeated experimentation and observation. Just because slight changes would make life impossible in no way supports your hypothesis that fine tuning was necessary. Your cited article proves my point. Sure, some scientists THINK it MIGHT be fine tuned, but there is no evidence beyond speculation that supports it. Thus, it is a mere hypothesis, not a scientific theory.

It's more than a hypothesis if we would not exist or certain elements would not exist. Here's an experiment with a supercomputer to see how the fine tuned universe would be by changing the parameters.

"For the parameters that describe forces inside the atom, physicists have few hints at how fine the tuning is. In other words, how many different dial settings would create a universe that supports life as we know it?

To try to answer such questions, nuclear physicist Ulf Meissner of the University of Bonn in Germany and colleagues ran complex computer simulations at the Juelich Supercomputing Center, home of the largest supercomputer in Europe. In their simulations, the scientists created a simplified model universe that included specific values for the masses of particles and the way they interact. The simulations were based on the Standard Model, physicists' main theory of fundamental particles and the strong, weak and electromagnetic forces. (The other fundamental force, gravity, is described by the general theory of relativity.)

The recent development of extremely powerful computers that can crunch through a thousand trillion calculations per second has now made this possible, said Meissner. With these computers, he said, "We can explore worlds where the constants have different values."

Meissner and his colleagues ran their simulations while varying two constants. One was the average of the masses of the up and down quarks. These fundamental particles make up protons and neutrons, which in turn make up people and the universe we see. (The quarks in protons and neutrons are held together by what is called the strong nuclear force.)

The scientists also varied the fine structure constant, which accounts for the strength of the electromagnetic force between charged particles. The strong force must overcome the electromagnetic force to bind protons and neutrons into stable nuclei that make up the familiar chemical elements: helium, carbon, oxygen and all the rest.

The values of the average quark mass and the fine structure constant together also form a deep mystery. While the universe's matter is almost entirely hydrogen and helium, humans and other life forms on Earth are, by weight, mostly oxygen and carbon. All of that carbon and oxygen was produced in now long-dead stars, when they had finished fusing nearly all their hydrogen fuel into helium, and began fusing helium into heavier elements."

A More Finely Tuned Universe
Could life as we know it have developed if fundamental physics constants were different?
https://www.insidescience.org/content/more-finely-tuned-universe/2601
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
I'm still not sure what you are talking about. You're accusing me of talking about God while I was talking about fine tuning and the Anthropic Principle (evolution). What I will point out is how science backs up the Bible. The Bible isn't a science book, but as time goes on, science ends up backing the Bible. This is wriiten up in articles in regular media such as the Business Insider.

It wasn't intended as a scientific cheat sheet no, the mysteries of creation are ours to solve, what better way to appreciate it?

But it did provide us some scientifically validated basics which were once considered 'religious pseudoscience'

that the entire universe was created in a specific creation event
early Earth was covered in water,
and later became single land mass and a single ocean
and life of various kinds appeared in distinct abrupt stages and forms, not smooth transitions,
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
It should be excluded but the term is used often. In practical terms the word 'scientific' is added to lend credence to an academically popular idea - like evolution, that is just a theory, an idea, a philosophical speculation, in lieu of direct empirical evidence.

the 'scientific' theory of evolution states that humans developed from a single cell through a series of lucky mutations and natural selection

Again, show me where this extraordinary claim has been repeatedly tested and confirmed through observation and experimentation !!

Even the core premise - a process of slow smooth incremental transitions, must be merely imagined to exist. All we have are various interesting speculations for why this has still not been observed.
After double checking, m theory and string theories are not considered to be scientific theories, as they are not sufficiently supported with evidence. Wikipedia is mistaken on that page.

As for evokution, this is a great site from Berkley that explains why that theory is sufficiently supported.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/search/topics.php?topic_id=14
 
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