Verses that show Qur'an is from God

[Don Penguinoini]

As for this pedophile thing, this is utter Anti-Islam statements.
Several hadith say that he proposed to her when he was 7, but they had a relationship when she was 14.
Oh and if she was raped, how come she loved her rapist? Astagfirullah.

7 year olds dont normally have the sense to have sex... Dono boutcha.

 

[Popeyesays]

7 year olds dont normally have the sense to have sex... Dono boutcha.

In Islam and in the culture before Islam, maturity for women was defined by the first menarche.

Though the ceremony was performed when she was nine, the "consumation" was not till after the first course of menstruation.

They did not have the nice, legal definition of "18".

Any number of Christian monarchs were married as children, but the consumation was later.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Don Penguinoini]

In Islam and in the culture before Islam, maturity for women was defined by the first menarche.

Though the ceremony was performed when she was nine, the "consumation" was not till after the first course of menstruation.

They did not have the nice, legal definition of "18".

Any number of Christian monarchs were married as children, but the consumation was later.

Regards,
Scott

On one of hte muslim threads, i have provided links to articles proving Muhammed had SEX with them, the child brides were in the multiples.

 

[Popeyesays]

On one of hte muslim threads, i have provided links to articles proving Muhammed had SEX with them, the child brides were in the multiples.

Well, I'd say it is ludicrous to claim such, unless you were a witness in Muhammed's tent more than 1300 years ago.

Could your sites, just possibly be propagandistic, Islam bashing sites? That's a poisoned well, you're dipping evidence from.

Also I would point out that your claims were dealt with on that other threads quite efficiently.

I did not point out before that it was a tradition in Hindu monarchies for child brides.

Can you NAME any other "child-brides"?

Your bias is hanging out and tripping your feet. Zip it back in before you injure yourself.

Regards,

Scott

 

[Don Penguinoini]

Well, I'd say it is ludicrous to claim such, unless you were a witness in Muhammed's tent more than 1300 years ago.

Could your sites, just possibly be propagandistic, Islam bashing sites? That's a poisoned well, you're dipping evidence from.

Also I would point out that your claims were dealt with on that other threads quite efficiently.

I did not point out before that it was a tradition in Hindu monarchies for child brides.

Can you NAME any other "child-brides"?

Your bias is hanging out and tripping your feet. Zip it back in before you injure yourself.

Regards,

Scott

Well, its something.

Answering-Islam.org

MUHAMMAD, AISHA, ISLAM, AND CHILD BRIDES​

by Silas​

INTRODUCTION

Muhammad was 52 and Aisha was 9 when they married and sexually consummated their marriage. Muhammad followed an Arab custom in marrying a child who had her first menstrual cycle. This action must be questioned, regardless of it being a cultural norm, because Muhammad's action and teachings on marriage established an Islamic precedent: a girl is judged an adult following her first menses, and is eligible for marriage and sexual relations. Thus Muslim men are allowed to marry and have intercourse with young girls who have happened to have an early first menstrual cycle. As will be shown, this leads to physical and psychological damage to the child.

Muhammad's first wife - Khadija, died a few years before he fled to Medina. Later, he was encouraged to take another wife. At the age of 49 he was betrothed to Aisha, age six. Aisha was his closest friend's, Abu Bakr's, daughter. At that time, she had already been betrothed to another man but by mutual consent the betrothal was dissolved. Three years later, following her first menstrual cycle, he then formally married and sexually consummated his marriage with her.

Most Western people know it is not in a 9 year old girl's best interest to engage in marriage and sexual relations with a 52 year old man, regardless of the cultural setting. We know that, in our culture today, a person doing such a thing could possible be sent to prison for sex with a minor, statutory rape, or other related laws. Most of us find it questionable for Muhammad, a self proclaimed prophet of God, to do such a thing. We expect a real prophet to know better, or at least hear from God on the matter.

What is more critical than Muhammad's single action with Aisha is that he taught that a girl is considered an adult following her first menstrual cycle. He also taught that his followers were to follow his "sunnah" or lifestyle. Thus today, throughout much of the Mideast, girls as young as nine are often married by men old enough to be their grandfather.

But why then do we find it objectionable? After all, Muhammad did not live in our culture or under our law. He lived under a Semitic culture. And this custom of marrying girls after their first menses existed in the Mideast long before Muhammad. What is the basis for rejection of this Semite custom and Muhammad's precedent? Are there any valid reasons to criticize it? Or should it simply be rejected based upon our own cultural bias?

I'll address this and other issues in this paper, and a discussion of the consequences of his deed as well. However some fundamental groundwork needs to be laid before moving on. Aisha's actual age is the first point that needs to be established. Within the Islamic world there is division concerning Aisha's age when she sexually consummated her marriage. Many Muslims in the West have a hard time accepting Aisha was only a little girl of 9 when their "prophet" had sex with her. Some Muslims, and even Western writers, wrote that she did not have sex with Muhammad until she was 14 or so. I've never seen any textual Islamic support for their position, only conjecture. But the thought of their prophet committing such an act is embarrassing to them, so they invent, or re-write, documented Islamic history to make it more acceptable to their minds and the minds of other Western people as well.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------

EVIDENCE THAT AISHA WAS 9 WHEN HER MARRIAGE TO MUHAMMAD WAS CONSUMMATED

There are a number of sources, all written by Muslims, that detail Muhammad's marriage and consummation with his young child-bride - Aisha.


FROM THE HADITH OF SAHIH BUKHARI

I have used Bukhari's Hadith, translated into English by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan, at the Islamic University in Medina. Bukhari's Hadith is considered authentic by the majority of Sunni Islamic scholars. It is second to the Quran in terms of importance. The central figure to approve and sign the translation is Dr. Amin Al-Masri, Ph.D. Cambridge University. He is the Advisor and Head of the Sharia Dept., at the College of Sharia and Islamic Studies in Mecca.


From Bukhari vol. 7, #65:
"Narrated Aisha that the prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: "I have been informed that Aisha remained with the prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).""


Bukhari vol. 7, #88:
"Narrated Urwa: "The prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).""


Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

 

[Popeyesays]

"
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.""

Prepared for the ceremony, yes. Held down and raped, no. The quote does not mention consumation.

My daughters had their menarche at ten years. Early menarche was more common in nomadic society than today. Menarche=maturity. Maturity means she was not a child.

You are imprinting modern concepts onto a culture 1300+ years in the past. THAT by itself is ludicrous.

There is also an AnsweringBaha`u'llah website. I do not recommend it for balanced material.

It was custom to marry Jewish children at 13 before 1900CE.

Jerry Lee Lewis married his wife when she was 13. She was his cousin to boot and that was in the 1950's. It was perfectly legal.

The source does not presume to mention other child brides.

Regards,
Scott

PS.

" Rukhmabai, victim of child marriage who opposed the practice.
"I am one of those unfortunate Hindu women whose hard lot is to suffer the unnameable miseries entailed by the custom of early marriage. This wicked practice of child marriage has destroyed the happiness of my life. It comes between me and the things which I prize above all others - study and mental cultivation. Without the least fault of mine I am doomed to seclusion; every aspiration of mine to rise above my ignorant sisters is looked down upon with suspicion and is interpreted in the most uncharitable manner."
- Extract from a letter written by Rukhmabai, a victim of child marriage, to The Times of India on June 26, 1885, and reproduced in the book Child Marriages in India by Jaya Sagade (Oxford University Press, 2005).
ONE hundred and twenty years later, India is still unable to stop this feudal practice. This is evident from the recent attack on an anganwadi (welfare centre) supervisor in Madhya Pradesh who tried to prevent three young girls from being married off in a mass ceremony.
Shakuntala Verma, the official, went to Bhangarh village in Dhar district on May 11 after a tip-off that a family there was planning to marry off its young daughters. As instructed by the Sub Divisional Magistrate she asked for proof of the girls' ages, but was forced to leave after members of the family threatened her. Later that evening a person armed with a sword came to her house and began slashing at her. As she tried to protect herself, one hand was severed and the other severely cut. Even as Shakuntala was fighting for her life in an Indore hospital after a nine-hour operation to re-attach her hand, Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister Babulal Gaur announced that "no serious action" would be taken against those who conduct child marriages. "Social customs are stronger than laws," he said."
Child BRIDES OF INDIA



S.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

"
Bukhari vol. 5, #234 says:
"Narrated Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.""

Prepared for the ceremony, yes. Held down and raped, no. The quote does not mention consumation.

My daughters had their menarche at ten years. Early menarche was more common in nomadic society than today. Menarche=maturity. Maturity means she was not a child.

You are imprinting modern concepts onto a culture 1300+ years in the past. THAT by itself is ludicrous.

There is also an AnsweringBaha`u'llah website. I do not recommend it for balanced material.

It was custom to marry Jewish children at 13 before 1900CE.

Jerry Lee Lewis married his wife when she was 13. She was his cousin to boot and that was in the 1950's. It was perfectly legal.

The source does not presume to mention other child brides.

Regards,
Scott

PS.

" Rukhmabai, victim of child marriage who opposed the practice.
"I am one of those unfortunate Hindu women whose hard lot is to suffer the unnameable miseries entailed by the custom of early marriage. This wicked practice of child marriage has destroyed the happiness of my life. It comes between me and the things which I prize above all others - study and mental cultivation. Without the least fault of mine I am doomed to seclusion; every aspiration of mine to rise above my ignorant sisters is looked down upon with suspicion and is interpreted in the most uncharitable manner."
- Extract from a letter written by Rukhmabai, a victim of child marriage, to The Times of India on June 26, 1885, and reproduced in the book Child Marriages in India by Jaya Sagade (Oxford University Press, 2005).
ONE hundred and twenty years later, India is still unable to stop this feudal practice. This is evident from the recent attack on an anganwadi (welfare centre) supervisor in Madhya Pradesh who tried to prevent three young girls from being married off in a mass ceremony.
Shakuntala Verma, the official, went to Bhangarh village in Dhar district on May 11 after a tip-off that a family there was planning to marry off its young daughters. As instructed by the Sub Divisional Magistrate she asked for proof of the girls' ages, but was forced to leave after members of the family threatened her. Later that evening a person armed with a sword came to her house and began slashing at her. As she tried to protect herself, one hand was severed and the other severely cut. Even as Shakuntala was fighting for her life in an Indore hospital after a nine-hour operation to re-attach her hand, Madhya Pradesh Chief Minister Babulal Gaur announced that "no serious action" would be taken against those who conduct child marriages. "Social customs are stronger than laws," he said."
Child BRIDES OF INDIA



S.

Scott, what are you trying to show me here, about the Indian child brides?

 

[Popeyesays]

Scott, what are you trying to show me here, about the Indian child brides?

And that the quoted hadith don't make sense in the interpretation you are applying.

Why do you point accusingly at the "child brides" of Islam more than a millenia ago and ignore that the same thing applies to Hinduism since before Christianity right up to the modern day.

if Islam is evil for this reason, then Hinduism is evil for the same reason.

Regards,
Scott

 

[McBell]

Well, mestemia? Protector? Anyone?

Listing a bunch of anti-Islam websites is not what I would consider A good source.
In fact, I will flat out state that it is sloppy research.
Of course, if you're only really after ratification of what you want to believe...

 

[McBell]

And that the quoted hadith don't make sense in the interpretation you are applying.

Why do you point accusingly at the "child brides" of Islam more than a millenia ago and ignore that the same thing applies to Hinduism since before Christianity right up to the modern day.

if Islam is evil for this reason, then Hinduism is evil for the same reason.

Regards,
Scott

I believe that such practice is referred to as "Counting the hits and ignoring the misses."

 

[Popeyesays]

I believe that such practice is referred to as "Counting the hits and ignoring the misses."

Yeah, age of consent is a cultural concept.

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

Yeah, age of consent is a cultural concept.

Yet, somehow "homosexuality is a sin" isn't?

It's alright to admit that one's prophet made a mistake. After all, they're only human. :flirt:

 

[Popeyesays]

Yet, somehow "homosexuality is a sin" isn't?

It's alright to admit that one's prophet made a mistake. After all, they're only human. :flirt:

"Sin" is irrelevant. It's against the laws of my faith to openly break chastity.
Even if one IS openly breaking chastity it does not mean that one is cast out of the faith.

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

Even if one IS openly breaking chastity it does not mean that one is cast out of the faith.

Where the "unnatural" people will feel quite welcome, I'm sure . . .

Not that I care, but that's the sort of thing that to me rules out Baha'i as any sort of universal religion of peace, despite it's proponents' claims to the contrary.

I sometimes wonder if I don't have a stronger reaction to Baha'i because of something like an "uncanny valley." It's so close to mysticism, and Baha'i proponents say many things that hint at something profound, which draws me in close, and then all the differences and dogmas just seem magnified.

 

[McBell]

Okay I am going to refute every single statement.

So far you haven't.
You have merely replied to them.

Refute
re·fute (r

-fy

t

)tr.v. re·fut·ed, re·fut·ing, re·futes
1. To prove to be false or erroneous; overthrow by argument or proof: refute testimony.
2. To deny the accuracy or truth of: refuted the results of the poll.

​

 

[Popeyesays]

Where the "unnatural" people will feel quite welcome, I'm sure . . .

Not that I care, but that's the sort of thing that to me rules out Baha'i as any sort of universal religion of peace, despite it's proponents' claims to the contrary.

I sometimes wonder if I don't have a stronger reaction to Baha'i because of something like an "uncanny valley." It's so close to mysticism, and Baha'i proponents say many things that hint at something profound, which draws me in close, and then all the differences and dogmas just seem magnified.

I'm sorry, but its not up to the faith to adapt to your qualms. A heterosexual couple who marry without having a Baha`i ceremony are in exactly the same boat, they have broken the marriage laws and are subject to the same removal of administrative rights.

Think of it this way. Marriage laws are not spiritual laws, they are social laws. There is a wide-range of social laws concerning marriage in all the revealed religions. When it comes time for a new Manifestation the society will need new social laws again.

The purpose of marriage is to provide a fortress of well-being for the partners, and to protect the offspring.

"And when He desired to manifest grace and beneficence to men, and to set the world in order, He revealed observances and created laws; among them He established the law of marriage, made it as a fortress for well-being and salvation, and enjoined it upon us in that which was sent down out of the heaven of sanctity in His Most Holy Book. He saith, great is His glory: "Marry, O people, that from you may appear he who will remember Me amongst My servants; this is one of My commandments unto you; obey it as an assistance to yourselves."

- Bahá'u'lláh

He is God!

O peerless Lord! In Thine almighty wisdom Thou hast enjoined marriage upon the peoples, 105 that the generations of men may succeed one another in this contingent world, and that ever, so long as the world shall last, they may busy themselves at the Threshold of Thy oneness with servitude and worship, with salutation, adoration and praise. "I have not created spirits and men, but that they should worship me."[1] Wherefore, wed Thou in the heaven of Thy mercy these two birds of the nest of Thy love, and make them the means of attracting perpetual grace; that from the union of these two seas of love a wave of tenderness may surge and cast the pearls of pure and goodly issue on the shore of life. "He hath let loose the two seas, that they meet each other: Between them is a barrier which they overpass not. Which then of the bounties of your Lord will ye deny? From each He bringeth up greater and lesser pearls."[2]
[1. Qur'án 51:56
[2. Qur'án 55:19-20

O Thou kind Lord! Make Thou this marriage to bring forth coral and pearls. Thou art verily the All-Powerful, the Most Great, the Ever-Forgiving."

- 'Abdu'l-Bahá

(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 103)

 

[doppelganger]

I'm sorry, but its not up to the faith to adapt to your qualms.

I didn't say it was. I just find some of the claims Baha'i make to be a little misleading. Obviously, you don't.

Think of it this way. Marriage laws are not spiritual laws, they are social laws.

They can be and frequently are both spiritual and social laws.

The purpose of marriage is to provide a fortress of well-being for the partners, and to protect the offspring.

Homosexual couples can provide a fortress of well-being for the partners and protect offspring.

 

[Popeyesays]

I didn't say it was. I just find some of the claims Baha'i make to be a little misleading. Obviously, you don't.



They can be and frequently are both spiritual and social laws.



Homosexual couples can provide a fortress of well-being for the partners and protect offspring.

Certainly they can. But by Baha`i marriage law they can't be married, therefore it is a violation of chastity.

I know it's a catch-22. I know I do not understand completely the reasoning. I know that it is against the marriage laws established in the faith.

Are you aware of what those marriage laws are?

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

Are you aware of what those marriage laws are?

The Baha'i marriage laws? I don't think I've actually read them, but I've read the wiki article about them.:cover:

 

[Popeyesays]

The Baha'i marriage laws? I don't think I've actually read them, but I've read the wiki article about them.:cover:

Then you've got the material, I wasn't looking for exact quotes:

1) Age of maturity (in Baha`i terms that is 15, but if civil law specifies otherwise we follow civil law always).

2) Marriages may NOT be arranged by parents. Both parties must court for themselves and make their own choice.

3) Before a marriage may take place all surviving natural parents must consent. This is to promote unity in the marriage so that all the family is properly supportive. If consent is not given, the marriage cannot take place.

4) If the marriage is interfaith both ceremonies must take place separately the same day.

5) The marriage must be witnessed by two individuals acceptable to the nearest Baha`i Assembly. THe witnesses need not be Baha`i's. We have no clergy, so the Assembly is the certifying institution.

6) The marriage is complete with the repetition by both parties of a single verse, "We will all verily abide by the will of God."

7) In the case of interfaith marriage the Baha`i partner cannot give over religious education rights for the children to the other religion. The children may be educated in both faiths and decide on their own after the age of maturity.

I can abbreviate the divorce laws if you like.

Regards,
Scott