Very Strong Evidence Against the Existence of the Supernatural

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'd like to address two of your points if I may:

It doesn't stretch credulity for God to send representatives/send messages orally/send written documents--those are three primary methods for communication.

... for people. They aren't particularly efficient, especially back in the days when books/scrolls had to be transcribed by hand and information moved at the speed of a horse. Also, transcription and translation allow errors and misunderstandings to creep in.

Even if it arrives perfectly, when you try to convince someone else of it, they have to base their decision not only on the content of the book, but also on the trustworthiness (or not) of every single person along the chain of information from the events the book describes to the person transmitting them to you.

If this is God's plan, then we can infer that:

- God didn't want everyone to hear his message right away.
- God wanted his message to be translated by people trying to further their own agendas.
- until the Bible was translated into a given language, God wanted the people of that language to be dependent on others to act as gatekeepers for God's message.
- God wanted people to reject his message based on mistrust of the person they were hearing it from.

Does this describe your god?

It doesn't stretch credulity to say God is most available to the most open persons regarding God. Do you more avidly pursue people who mock you and deny your existence or people pursuing you for healthy relationships?

For someone who says they read the Bible, you seem to have really missed the point of all those shepherding metaphors. A good shepherd puts more effort into bringing back the wayward sheep than into the ones who stay with the herd without coaxing.

Of course I take the moral system from the Bible. I'm judged on trusting Christ and not circumcision or the Feasts. Being Jewish, I know about Feast and Fast keeping. I'm to love people and love God--and as Jesus said, that's pretty much what the Law covers!

That wasn't your position before. Earlier, when you tried to paint atheists as immoral, you pulled out the Ten Commandments and went through them point-by-point. If you see the Exodus 21 Ten Commandments as worth following, why don't you feel the same about the Exodus 34 Ten Commandments?

Whatever the reason, it comes from you, not from the Bible.

 

[BilliardsBall]

... for people. They aren't particularly efficient, especially back in the days when books/scrolls had to be transcribed by hand and information moved at the speed of a horse. Also, transcription and translation allow errors and misunderstandings to creep in.

Even if it arrives perfectly, when you try to convince someone else of it, they have to base their decision not only on the content of the book, but also on the trustworthiness (or not) of every single person along the chain of information from the events the book describes to the person transmitting them to you.

If this is God's plan, then we can infer that:

- God didn't want everyone to hear his message right away.
- God wanted his message to be translated by people trying to further their own agendas.
- until the Bible was translated into a given language, God wanted the people of that language to be dependent on others to act as gatekeepers for God's message.
- God wanted people to reject his message based on mistrust of the person they were hearing it from.

Does this describe your god?


For someone who says they read the Bible, you seem to have really missed the point of all those shepherding metaphors. A good shepherd puts more effort into bringing back the wayward sheep than into the ones who stay with the herd without coaxing.


That wasn't your position before. Earlier, when you tried to paint atheists as immoral, you pulled out the Ten Commandments and went through them point-by-point. If you see the Exodus 21 Ten Commandments as worth following, why don't you feel the same about the Exodus 34 Ten Commandments?

Whatever the reason, it comes from you, not from the Bible.

I'm lost--are you still saying God didn't write the Bible or that I'm not following it closely enough. If God didn't write the Bible, and you were a good shepherd, you would put more effort in trying to rescue me from the Bible delusion.

Are you asking me questions or being rhetorical above?

Let's save time parsing the 613 OT commandments. Jesus said two things truly sum them:

1. Love God supremely.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

I do fall down, often, in these two areas.

Atheists can only score 50% on this test.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm lost--are you still saying God didn't write the Bible or that I'm not following it closely enough.

I'm saying that your position is inconsistent and hypocritical. There are probably a few ways to resolve the hypocrisy.

If God didn't write the Bible, and you were a good shepherd, you would put more effort in trying to rescue me from the Bible delusion.

I'm not your shepherd. I'm not even out to convert you. I'm just trying - and failing - to tease a rational position out of you.

Are you asking me questions or being rhetorical above?

I was actually asking you questions.

Let's save time parsing the 613 OT commandments. Jesus said two things truly sum them:

1. Love God supremely.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

Too late for that. You already brought up the Exodus 21 Ten Commandments as the standard. I'm still waiting for you to explain why that's your standard but you apparently pay no heed at all to the Exodus 34 Ten Commandments.

Of course, I ask this knowing the real answer: Exodus 34 has nothing to do with morality. This is despite the fact that, according to the story, it was written on stone tablets by God's own hand just like the Exodus 21 version. This is despite the fact that, according to the story, the Exodus 34 version was handed down by God as a replacement for the Exodus 21 version.

Any person who believed that the Bible is true and that morality comes from God would accept that the Exodus 34 Ten Commandments are at least as important as the Exodus 21 commandments... yet no Christian I've ever met has actually believed this.

How about you? Which is it?

- do you consider the replacement Ten Commandments just as important as the superseded version?

- do you think that the Bible's story about these events is wrong somehow?

- do you think that morality doesn't actually come from God?

I do fall down, often, in these two areas.

Atheists can only score 50% on this test.

Until such time as you demonstrate that God is worthy of love, I won't count that as a strike against atheists.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm saying that your position is inconsistent and hypocritical. There are probably a few ways to resolve the hypocrisy.


I'm not your shepherd. I'm not even out to convert you. I'm just trying - and failing - to tease a rational position out of you.


I was actually asking you questions.


Too late for that. You already brought up the Exodus 21 Ten Commandments as the standard. I'm still waiting for you to explain why that's your standard but you apparently pay no heed at all to the Exodus 34 Ten Commandments.

Of course, I ask this knowing the real answer: Exodus 34 has nothing to do with morality. This is despite the fact that, according to the story, it was written on stone tablets by God's own hand just like the Exodus 21 version. This is despite the fact that, according to the story, the Exodus 34 version was handed down by God as a replacement for the Exodus 21 version.

Any person who believed that the Bible is true and that morality comes from God would accept that the Exodus 34 Ten Commandments are at least as important as the Exodus 21 commandments... yet no Christian I've ever met has actually believed this.

How about you? Which is it?

- do you consider the replacement Ten Commandments just as important as the superseded version?

- do you think that the Bible's story about these events is wrong somehow?

- do you think that morality doesn't actually come from God?


Until such time as you demonstrate that God is worthy of love, I won't count that as a strike against atheists.

There are 613 OT commandments, not just 10 here, 10 there. Most people are at least mildly familiar with the Exodus 20 decalogue so I started there. To make it simpler, I was willing to move to "love God and love your neighbor" (at least 50% failure by atheists) but we can move the other way to estimate how many of the 613 commands atheists disobey because it will still be less than Christians no matter how you parse it.

But let's be clear, any person, atheist or else born again, like me, cannot enter a utopia and act like "normal" or they destroy the utopia. This is what atheists and born agains have in common, the need for personal transformation. I'm yet to be fully transformed, but I shall be, because I've trusted in Christ. This is one of the main messages of the scriptures--that the Law shows ALL have fallen, not just atheists, all are off-base, unredeemed.

 

[gnostic]

To make it simpler, I was willing to move to "love God and love your neighbor"

You may love your God, but you certainly failed in the later. You are what Jesus called a "hypocrite".

 

[BilliardsBall]

You may love your God, but you certainly failed in the later. You are what Jesus called a "hypocrite".

How so? I'd like to apologize and make corrections with your help.