Violent verses from Allah

[Cooky]

But I don't find posts like this productive.

But what about all the insults I received..?

• Don't even know my own religion?
• I'm prejudiced?
• Don't even know who abraham is?

...Can't you see how rude that was of @Saintfrankenstein to say to me? And then when I address it as an Ad Hominem, I'm at fault?

 

[Cooky]

I've never referenced anything you haven't posted publicly on the forums.

This isn't about me, Frank. Please stick to the topic or leave the thread... You're not supposed to bring stuff from other threads here anyway, don't you know that?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But what about all the insults I received..?

• Don't even know my own religion?
• I'm prejudiced?
• Don't even know who abraham is?

...Can't you see how rude that was of @Saintfrankenstein to say to me? And then when I address it as an Ad Hominem, I'm at fault?

There was a thread where you didn't know who Abraham was. I don't have the patience to dig it up right now. You have demonstrated ignorance about your stated religion in various other areas, too.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The Bible is (for the most part, with exceptions such as books like Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Epistles) a collection of books of narratives "so and so did this" and "so and so said such and such to so and so". The Bible is not revelation, it is (claimed to be) historical recording of events long after they happened. And therefore the Bible is to be understood on those merits



Um no, the Qur'an talks to Prophet Muhammad. If you want to hear Prophet Muhammad talking, here is an example of a Hadith of Prophet Muhammad:

Jabir reported that the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), said:
"Every act of kindness is sadaqa. Part of kindness is that you offer your brother a cheerful face and you pour some of your bucket into his water vessel."


As far as the Qur'an is concerned, it's revealed to Prophet Muhammad by the angel Jibreel (Gabriel), the same angel reported to have appeared to Daniel and Mary in the Bible.
The term "Qur'an" means recitation, as that is it's initial form of revelation. The Qur'an is not addressed solely to a single person because it is addressed to all mankind. However it's initial context was to Muhammad, the second context is to the early Meccans/Medianites and the final context is to all mankind.
The linguistic tense in the Qur'an changes depending on what it is saying. For instance, some verses (ayat) possess spiritual formulas and dialectics which are supposed to be contemplated. For instance "Allah; there is no god but he", this is a formula, but if it was addressing you directly and specifically then it would read "there is no god but we".
Also you'll notice that when it speaks of the creation of the universe in the Qur'an, in many Surahs it differs on the tense that it gives. Sometimes it's "Allah created" other times it is "I created" other times it's "we created". The idea is that there is a plurality of linguistic tense.
A person's actual reading of the Qur'an is very different to the Bible because it is a conversation between you and God, rather than simply people writing about things that happened to Prophets.

Anyway, @Faithofchristian if you want to understand the Qur'an, start with the reception of the very first Surah (Surah 96). The very first words of the Qur'an given to Prophet Muhammad by the angel Gabriel were as follows:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Read in the name of your Lord Who created.
He created man from a clot.
Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,
Who taught (to write) with the pen
Taught man what he knew not.
(Surah 96:1-5)​

It's like I said..in the Qu'ran Muhammad does all the talking neither Allah or Gabriel doesn't talk at all. It's Muhammad who does all the talking.
Just to let you know..I do have the Qu'ran and there no where in the Qu'ran is to be found Allah saying anything... It's all Muhammad that's talking.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The Bible is (for the most part, with exceptions such as books like Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Epistles) a collection of books of narratives "so and so did this" and "so and so said such and such to so and so". The Bible is not revelation, it is (claimed to be) historical recording of events long after they happened. And therefore the Bible is to be understood on those merits



Um no, the Qur'an talks to Prophet Muhammad. If you want to hear Prophet Muhammad talking, here is an example of a Hadith of Prophet Muhammad:

Jabir reported that the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace), said:
"Every act of kindness is sadaqa. Part of kindness is that you offer your brother a cheerful face and you pour some of your bucket into his water vessel."


As far as the Qur'an is concerned, it's revealed to Prophet Muhammad by the angel Jibreel (Gabriel), the same angel reported to have appeared to Daniel and Mary in the Bible.
The term "Qur'an" means recitation, as that is it's initial form of revelation. The Qur'an is not addressed solely to a single person because it is addressed to all mankind. However it's initial context was to Muhammad, the second context is to the early Meccans/Medianites and the final context is to all mankind.
The linguistic tense in the Qur'an changes depending on what it is saying. For instance, some verses (ayat) possess spiritual formulas and dialectics which are supposed to be contemplated. For instance "Allah; there is no god but he", this is a formula, but if it was addressing you directly and specifically then it would read "there is no god but we".
Also you'll notice that when it speaks of the creation of the universe in the Qur'an, in many Surahs it differs on the tense that it gives. Sometimes it's "Allah created" other times it is "I created" other times it's "we created". The idea is that there is a plurality of linguistic tense.
A person's actual reading of the Qur'an is very different to the Bible because it is a conversation between you and God, rather than simply people writing about things that happened to Prophets.

Anyway, @Faithofchristian if you want to understand the Qur'an, start with the reception of the very first Surah (Surah 96). The very first words of the Qur'an given to Prophet Muhammad by the angel Gabriel were as follows:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Read in the name of your Lord Who created.
He created man from a clot.
Read and your Lord is Most Honorable,
Who taught (to write) with the pen
Taught man what he knew not.
(Surah 96:1-5)​

So Muhammad said,.which doesn't prove a thing..only Muhammad say this or that..
So it's still Muhammad saying.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This isn't about me, Frank. Please stick to the topic or leave the thread... You're not supposed to bring stuff from other threads here anyway, don't you know that?

I know you are going through a hard time in your personal life from the things you've posted, so I'll give you a break. But you should still calm down and think things through more. You're not the only one going through tough times.

 

[Cooky]

Again, it's "Quran" and "Sharia" (not "Koran" and "Sharia Law" which means "Law Law").

Not for me it's not. I'm an English speaker.

Only ideally is Sharia based upon such a thing but if you know even the slightest thing about Islam, you'd know that the normative formalization of Sharia is based on the rulings of scholars (for Sunnis it's the four Madhhabs and for Shi'ites it's mainly Usuli Jafari Fiqh).
Sharia as a school of thought never originated from Prophet Muhammad (saw), it originated 400 years after his death.

But you said it was not based on the Koran... So are you backpedaling now, or are you still stating the Koran has no involvement in sharia?

Nonetheless, Sharia itself is not in any way a system nor governance, it is only the way a person lives and acts, it is mainly concerned with outward observance.
e.g. This covers everything from the times you pray to how you wash your hands to what food you eat, etc.
The type of OCD taken with such a thing, is another matter. Sharia itself however is a living guideline but nothing solid and firm (unlike scripture).

Again, I asked you a specific question, and you're preaching to me again.

I don't see any logic in your question, sorry but it seems a very confused question. I'm not even sure what you're trying to even ask there.

Okay...
...I think you must not know what fundamentalism means.

By fundamentalism you mean fanaticism, sure I'd agree with that. This originates not from people who understand the texts they claim to follow but rather the opposite - those who project their egos onto texts trying to make them support their wild heretical ideas.

No, fundamentalism, by definition, is: "a form of a religion, especially Islam or Protestant Christianity, that upholds belief in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture"
Fundamentalism | Definition of Fundamentalism by Lexico

 

[Cooky]

There was a thread where you didn't know who Abraham was. I don't have the patience to dig it up right now. You have demonstrated ignorance about your stated religion in various other areas, too.

You need to stop bringing up things from other threads. We're here now. This isn't about "me'.

 

[Cooky]

I know you are going through a hard time in your personal life from the things you've posted, so I'll give you a break. But you should still calm down and think things through more. You're not the only one going through tough times.

What the **** is wrong with you..? Stop talking about me on a personal level. We're in the middle of a debate, and you're trying to discuss my personal life?

...WTF..?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

What the **** is wrong with you..? Stop talking about me on a personal level. We're in the middle of a debate, and you're trying to attack my personal character.

You need therapy. Go away. I'm tired of it.

 

[Cooky]

You need therapy. Go away. I'm tired of it.

You can't follow forum rules. Get lost.

 

[Cooky]

@Saint Frankenstein, you're just attempting a character assasination.

I'm sure everyone except your pet sees through you.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

@Saint Frankenstein, you're just attempting a character assasination.

I'm sure everyone except your pet sees through you.

"My pet"? I wasn't aware that my dog or cat was posting on here. What a leap for science!

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You can't follow forum rules. Get lost.

Too hypocritical for me. I'm too worn out for this.

 

[ManSinha]

As far as the Qur'an is concerned, it's revealed to Prophet Muhammad by the angel Jibreel (Gabriel), the same angel reported to have appeared to Daniel and Mary in the Bible.

Well - for a body of content that was revealed by an angel (likely acting as an agent of the almighty) - there are some issues which leaves a non believer like me thinking it is awfully reflective of the limited environment of the Arabic peninsula 1400 years ago.

Surah Maryam 19:28 Maryam (conceivably the mother of Jesus) being referred to as sister of Aaron and Moses

Surah Al-Kahf 18:83-36 Dhul-Qarnayn following the path to where the sun ostensibly sets in a pool of dark mud

Fussilat 41:9 He who created the earth in two days

Surah Al-Kahf 7:54 Indeed your lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in six days and established himself above the throne


And while there are many mentions of Moses, Abraham, Jesus and Mary - there is none of Ram or Krishna or the Vedas as opposed to the Tawrat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) - the most likely explanation is that at the time - these were not known to Muhammed

I cannot in all seriousness consider that this is the divine's own word - leaving aside fully a third or so of known humankind without any mention of their religion(s), beliefs or texts

While overall your posts do show an understanding of the religion and deep study - I would categorically challenge any assertion that the Quran is the word of god -

 

[Cooky]

@ClimbingTheLadder, it's illogical that you denounce Christian fundamentalism but give a pass to Islamic fundamentalism... 'Fundamentalism' being the strict and literal interpretation of scripture.

...That has hypocrisy written all over it.



Fundamentalism | Definition of Fundamentalism by Lexico

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

Well - for a body of content that was revealed by an angel (likely acting as an agent of the almighty) - there are some issues which leaves a non believer like me thinking it is awfully reflective of the limited environment of the Arabic peninsula 1400 years ago.

Surah Maryam 19:28 Maryam (conceivably the mother of Jesus) being referred to as sister of Aaron and Moses

Surah Al-Kahf 18:83-36 Dhul-Qarnayn following the path to where the sun ostensibly sets in a pool of dark mud

Fussilat 41:9 He who created the earth in two days

Surah Al-Kahf 7:54 Indeed your lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in six days and established himself above the throne


And while there are many mentions of Moses, Abraham, Jesus and Mary - there is none of Ram or Krishna or the Vedas as opposed to the Tawrat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) - the most likely explanation is that at the time - these were not known to Muhammed

I cannot in all seriousness consider that this is the divine's own word - leaving aside fully a third or so of known humankind without any mention of their religion(s), beliefs or texts

While overall your posts do show an understanding of the religion and deep study - I would categorically challenge any assertion that the Quran is the word of god -

Yours and my opinion are not relevant here, it is the integrity to represent the beliefs of Islam as Muslims believe it, as well as what the texts themselves say. It's not a matter of believing or disbelieving, it's a matter of representation.
As far as Islam is concerned, the Qur'an is a revelation to Muhammad and not by him. The life of Muhammad is not the Qur'an, the life of Muhammad is in Hadith. This is a kind of distinction other religions do not have.
In understanding Islam, we have to understand the concept of divine revelation and what this entails.

As far as the Bible is concerned, it has for the most part not being considered "revelation" in the literal sense. (with exception of 18th century evangelical Christians who think the KJV was revealed by God in order to skirt around all problems with translation, canon and other issues). The only segment of the whole Bible that truly fits into this category is the Torah, albeit the problem that most of the "Torah" is biographical and not the words of God to Moses.
The Bible for the most part only claims to be historical or biographical (with the exception to the poetry of the Psalms, the wisdom literature and the genre of Epistles).

This is not a value judgement but we are dealing with typologies here. Different texts regarded as "scripture" in different religions often have very different functions, theologically to sociologically et al. Different 'scriptures' also claim different purposes and origins. We must be mindful of such distinctions when talking about different religions.

The three in particular that I find most interesting though are the Vedas, Torah and Qur'an because they are the three that claim the highest status. The Vedas are believed traditionally to be the manifestation of God in auditory form, profound things the ancient sages witnessed and experienced viscerally, and with that comes many related concepts in the Puranas relating to a sort of deifying of the Vedas with emphasis put more in hearing them than intellectually understanding them (of which is given to the Upanishads).
Then there is the Torah which is typologically a collection of events, rituals and narratives all amassing a kind of 'crime scene evidence' of sorts for the life of the Prophet Moses foremost but also the history of the world prior to him.
As for the Qur'an, it's typologically the only text of it's kind in the sense of the scripture being a totality revealed by an angel to a Prophet, seen as a kind of 'book of the universe'. In other words, in the Abrahamic tradition we have all of these Prophets and we know some things about their lives but what was actually revealed to them? well, the Qur'an is the case of if we take Prophethood seriously then we have our answer. The life of the Prophet himself in Islam taking a completely different area of consideration (the Hadith and Seerah) in comparison to the revelation purportedly given to him (Qur'an).


As Surah 40:78 say though, regarding your comment on other 'religions' and texts etc:

"And certainly We sent apostles before you: there are some of them that We have mentioned to you and there are others whom We have not mentioned to you, and it was not meet for an apostle that he should bring a sign except with Allah's permission, but when the command of Allah came, judgment was given with truth, and those who treated (it) as a lie were lost."

And Surah 10:47:

"And every nation had an apostle; so when their apostle came, the matter was decided between them with justice and they shall not be dealt with unjustly."


As I said previously, the Qur'an does not hold to a Middle East exclusivity, nor does it explicate per se the typical conception of an "Abrahamic tradition", albeit Abraham is definitely held as the patriarch that binds together a large mass of people (seen as a figure who brings about unity between various groups of people).

Also for the record, you may find the following ayat useful (as you may never have read it):

"Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabeans and the Christians and the Zoroastrians and those who associate; surely Allah will decide between them on the day of resurrection; surely Allah is a witness over all things." (Surah 22:17)



Also, btw, Ayyamin does not mean "days" lol, it means periods of time.

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

@ClimbingTheLadder, it's illogical that you denounce Christian fundamentalism but give a pass to Islamic fundamentalism... 'Fundamentalism' being the strict and literal interpretation of scripture.

...That has hypocrisy written all over it.



Fundamentalism | Definition of Fundamentalism by Lexico

You're psychologically projecting again, it's quite ignominious. I'd like to see evidence of your silly claims.

 

[Cooky]

You're psychologically projecting again, it's quite ignominious. I'd like to see evidence of your silly claims.

Lol, projecting what..? My Catholic Traditions..?

Also, why would I need evidence when you've already admitted that you disagree with "Protestant fundi's", but feel differently about Islamic scriptural fundamentalism?

Did you forget what you said?:

Protestant fundis are the worst though, I have to agree with you there, I have to deal with them quite regularly.

...Are you even attempting to be intellectually honest here?

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

It's like I said..in the Qu'ran Muhammad does all the talking neither Allah or Gabriel doesn't talk at all. It's Muhammad who does all the talking.
Just to let you know..I do have the Qu'ran and there no where in the Qu'ran is to be found Allah saying anything... It's all Muhammad that's talking.

Again no, typologically it is not Muhammad talking.

Take this verse as an example, which speaks of Muhammad directly:

"And Muhammad is no more than an Messenger; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful." (Surah 3:144)

Other examples, being that the Qur'an frequently refers to Muhammad and even chastises him. Even if you don't believe that it's from God (which would make your belief in the Bible all the more hypocritical, lol - but which is also not the contention being dealt with), the Qur'an still doesn't present itself nor speak from the perspective of Muhammad:

"O Prophet, sufficient for you is Allah and for whoever follows you of the believers." (Surah 8:64)

"O Prophet, why do you prohibit what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (Surah 66:1)


Nonetheless, if God revealed itself to a Prophet (and written in an extravagant and exaggerated manner in the Old Testament), then we would expect something like this.

Surah 2:285 is another verse speaking about Muhammad:

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers,
"We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the final destination."

Another one speaking to Muhammad:

"And certainly Messengers before you were mocked at, but that which they mocked at encompassed the scoffers among them." (Surah 6:10)


Even if you decide it's complete bogus, it doesn't change the fact that the linguistic tense of the Qur'an professes to be speaking to and about Muhammad, not what you claim of Muhammad speaking (which again, is clearly the realm of Hadith).