Violent verses from Allah

[ClimbingTheLadder]

Lol, projecting what..? My Catholic Traditions..?

Also, why would I need evidence when you've already admitted that you disagree with Sola Scriptura, but feel differently about Islamic scriptural fundamentalism?

Are you even attempting to be intellectually honest here?

Because you are in your own world talking to yourself and claiming strange things about "Islamic scriptural fundamentalism" which I've clearly not said. You're projecting your imagination onto me for whatever reasons of agenda and ideology. Nonetheless, I don't care unless you are willing to say something coherent, relevant or productive. Thank you,

 

[Cooky]

Because you are in your own world talking to yourself and claiming strange things about "Islamic scriptural fundamentalism" which I've clearly not said. You're projecting your imagination onto me for whatever reasons of agenda and ideology. Nonetheless, I don't care unless you are willing to say something coherent, relevant or productive. Thank you,

You don't really deserve to be taken seriously, when all you've done here is stand on your soap box and preach Islam to everyone.

It's quite clear you're not here for dialogue. It's all one-sided with you. You don't listen. I mean, I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you... You get it..? Or is that too confusing..?

 

[ClimbingTheLadder]

when all you've done here is stand on your soap box and preach Islam to everyone.

You're getting boring because you say the same garbage over and over again but without any evidence.

I will redirrect you back to where I already addressed this: Violent verses from Allah

It's quite clear you're not here for dialogue.

This post stands: Violent verses from Allah

If you are not going to provide any dialogue, then this "conversation" is over. I have no time for your tantrums, projections and "no u" games.

 

[Cooky]

You're getting boring because you say the same garbage over and over again but without any evidence.

I will redirrect you back to where I already addressed this: Violent verses from Allah



This post stands: Violent verses from Allah

If you are not going to provide any dialogue, then this "conversation" is over. I have no time for your tantrums, projections and "no u" games.

The post you just directed me to made this argument a complete circle. You failed to address Islamic, text-only fundamentalism as I've described. I'm finished with this discussion.

Your posts are rude and inflammatory. You seem like you may be the perfect Islamic fundi.

...Good luck with that.

 

[Ebionite]

Fighting doesn’t make truth known.

In the case of supremacy it does.

 

[sun rise]

It's like I said..in the Qu'ran Muhammad does all the talking neither Allah or Gabriel doesn't talk at all. It's Muhammad who does all the talking.
Just to let you know..I do have the Qu'ran and there no where in the Qu'ran is to be found Allah saying anything... It's all Muhammad that's talking.

That's easy to disprove 17:104

Sahih International: And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering."

 

[exchemist]

Why do you oppose Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, and the array of other religions in favor of "Abrahamic" preferences? Why exclude them if they don't claim a "book" or "Abraham" ..? Do you not recognize the exclusivity in this?

...Is faith alone in a higher power not in itself a kind of spiritual magnetism from God , that we all share as human persons?

I don't. "People of the Book" is not a term I invented. But I find it touching that Islam has this term as a mark of respect and kinship for Christians and Jews, that's all.

Why are you so keen to stir up trouble?

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity

I see a problem with that being in a book revered as "word of god" - now being "attacked" means different things to different people
To those that stormed the offices of Charlie Hebdo - an attack was drawing cartoons of the prophet
Another may take an adverse social media post as an attack

Neither does the Quran state that retaliation is only permissible for intentional life threatening attacks eg a person on a busy subway in a big western city unknowingly bumps into a muslim lady and her companion - the companion decides that was an "attack" on his companion's honor and takes retributive action.

Also the US or another Western country imposes economic sanctions on Iran or any other muslim theocracy - certain elements decide that this is an attack (which in a sense it is an economic attack) - and decide to do harm to innocents in the West - all taking their permission from those verses

Why is the "word of god" so unclear that any one can (and many have) twisted it - to meet their needs in the moment? If Allah sanctions this in his book then Allah has the responsibility to stop misuse of the verses - if that does not happen - the possible choices are:

Allah does not exist
Allah is powerless to affect what humans do in his name

What is your answer to these dilemmas? And do not give me the party line that these are "bad muslims" or that "they do not understand the book"

Too many lives have been lost and untold damage caused for that excuse to hold good

As one person said - what is the percentage of "bad muslims" ? Is it 2%, 1% or 0.1%?

When you consider greater than a billion muslims that still adds up to 100 to 1000 million undesirables

I am sorry - that is simply not acceptable

I believe in the goodness of people, of humanity. The large majority of people are good and it is only a tiny sick minded minority whom commit atrocities. But all are good and I don’t agree that any race or nation or religion should be tainted with one brush. I see that as prejudice akin to racism.

Muslims I believe are good people, very, very good peaceful, noble and upright people with a beautiful culture. They are this way because of the Quran and Muhammad.

But people choose to do good or evil depending on motive.

The real fault I believe lies with people who do these wrong things because they made a conscious decision to do so and not the fault of any holy book they seek to use to justify their actions.

 

[danieldemol]

In the case of supremacy it does.

So if a bunch of flat earthers defeated round earthers in a fight you’d be impressed with the flat earth theory, how primitive.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Again no, typologically it is not Muhammad talking.

Take this verse as an example, which speaks of Muhammad directly:

"And Muhammad is no more than an Messenger; the apostles have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful." (Surah 3:144)

Other examples, being that the Qur'an frequently refers to Muhammad and even chastises him. Even if you don't believe that it's from God (which would make your belief in the Bible all the more hypocritical, lol - but which is also not the contention being dealt with), the Qur'an still doesn't present itself nor speak from the perspective of Muhammad:

"O Prophet, sufficient for you is Allah and for whoever follows you of the believers." (Surah 8:64)

"O Prophet, why do you prohibit what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." (Surah 66:1)


Nonetheless, if God revealed itself to a Prophet (and written in an extravagant and exaggerated manner in the Old Testament), then we would expect something like this.

Surah 2:285 is another verse speaking about Muhammad:

The Messenger has believed in what was revealed to him from his Lord, and the believers. All of them have believed in Allah and His angels and His books and His messengers,
"We make no distinction between any of His messengers." And they say, "We hear and we obey. Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the final destination."

Another one speaking to Muhammad:

"And certainly Messengers before you were mocked at, but that which they mocked at encompassed the scoffers among them." (Surah 6:10)


Even if you decide it's complete bogus, it doesn't change the fact that the linguistic tense of the Qur'an professes to be speaking to and about Muhammad, not what you claim of Muhammad speaking (which again, is clearly the realm of Hadith).

There's nothing there to indicate Muhammad is the one being speaking to.
Seeing that Muhammad couldn't read or write...
So it has come down that Muhammad's wife and a friend did the writing for him.

So how would Muhammad know of a certain what they written down..
Seeing that Muhammad couldn't read or write..
You know it came down that Muhammad died in Medina Saudi Arabia.
Jesus Christ foretold in the book of
Luke 13:33---"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem"
Seeing that Muhammad died in
Medina Saudi Arabia... That's quite a long ways from Jerusalem..
Jesus Christ showing that if anyone comes to claim to be a prophet and dies any where else and not in Jerusalem they are a false prophet.

Here's another one..Jesus Christ speaking..
saying in the book of Mark 13:23--
"But take you heed..behold. I have foretold you all things"

Now seeing that Jesus Christ himself has foretold all things..this also shows that if anyone comes to proclaim to be a prophet they are a false prophet.... because Jesus Christ has already foretold all things himself.

So God is not going to send another prophet..but prove if people are going to listen to him or someone else coming to claim their a prophet.

Here's another one Jesus Christ speaking..
saying. In the book of Luke 7:28--" For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he"

By what Jesus Christ is saying here.. indicates John the Baptist is the last of the great Prophets.
Therefore with everything Jesus Christ has said in all of these.indicates Muhammad to be a false prophet.

Why would Jesus Christ need to send another prophet. When Jesus Christ himself has already foretold all things and John the Baptist is the last of the great Prophets.

The reason why there will not be another prophet sent because Jesus Christ is going to prove whether or not people are going to listen to him or someone else who comes claiming to be a prophet.
Such as Muhammad.
I know your not going to be able to handle any of this...but if you have a problem with it my advice would be to take up with Jesus Christ on Judgement day.

 

[Faithofchristian]

That's easy to disprove 17:104

Sahih International: And We said after Pharaoh to the Children of Israel, "Dwell in the land, and when there comes the promise of the Hereafter, We will bring you forth in [one] gathering."

If you had read it..notice ( and We said)
That could be anyone "and We said"
Who's the ( We said)
Maybe it was Muhammad's wife and friend.
( We said)
Seeing that Muhammad couldn't read or write..So the ( We said) could be Muhammad's wife and friend. (We said)
Seeing that Muhammad's wife and friend did the writing for Muhammad.

 

[Cooky]

I don't. "People of the Book" is not a term I invented. But I find it touching that Islam has this term as a mark of respect and kinship for Christians and Jews, that's all.

Why are you so keen to stir up trouble?

I don't know.

I just really feel like unity beyond the Abrahamics is more important... Even the pope doesn't protect his own above the rest -he tells us "who are we to judge" and speaks with the Amazonians on a genuinely spiritual level . Without asking for anything in return.

I feel like reaching out to all humankind is a better way than grouping up under exclusive umbrellas.

 

[Cooky]

Honestly, I feel a special kind way about the Baha'I religion now. I feel like their work, while extremely difficult and strenuous, is truly a good thing for the world. And I think their mission is a Holy one.

...And I've never thought about another religion that way before in my life.

 

[sun rise]

I don't know.

I just really feel like unity beyond the Abrahamics is more important... Even the pope doesn't protect his own above the rest -he tells us "who are we to judge" and speaks with the Amazonians on a genuinely spiritual level . Without asking for anything in return.

I feel like reaching out to all humankind is a better way than grouping up under exclusive umbrellas.

Amen, brother.

After all, we are all God's children.

 

[Cooky]

Amen, brother.

After all, we are all God's children.

Indeed. My true goal, behind all the muck, is to unite us all spiritually.

 

[sun rise]

There's nothing there to indicate Muhammad is the one being speaking to.
Seeing that Muhammad couldn't read or write...
So it has come down that Muhammad's wife and a friend did the writing for him.

So how would Muhammad know of a certain what they written down..
Seeing that Muhammad couldn't read or write..
You know it came down that Muhammad died in Medina Saudi Arabia.
Jesus Christ foretold in the book of
Luke 13:33---"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem"
Seeing that Muhammad died in
Medina Saudi Arabia... That's quite a long ways from Jerusalem..
Jesus Christ showing that if anyone comes to claim to be a prophet and dies any where else and not in Jerusalem they are a false prophet.

Here's another one..Jesus Christ speaking..
saying in the book of Mark 13:23--
"But take you heed..behold. I have foretold you all things"

Now seeing that Jesus Christ himself has foretold all things..this also shows that if anyone comes to proclaim to be a prophet they are a false prophet.... because Jesus Christ has already foretold all things himself.

So God is not going to send another prophet..but prove if people are going to listen to him or someone else coming to claim their a prophet.

Here's another one Jesus Christ speaking..
saying. In the book of Luke 7:28--" For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he"

By what Jesus Christ is saying here.. indicates John the Baptist is the last of the great Prophets.
Therefore with everything Jesus Christ has said in all of these.indicates Muhammad to be a false prophet.

Why would Jesus Christ need to send another prophet. When Jesus Christ himself has already foretold all things and John the Baptist is the last of the great Prophets.

The reason why there will not be another prophet sent because Jesus Christ is going to prove whether or not people are going to listen to him or someone else who comes claiming to be a prophet.
Such as Muhammad.
I know your not going to be able to handle any of this...but if you have a problem with it my advice would be to take up with Jesus Christ on Judgement day.

You believe one thing. Muslims believe something else. That's the issue.

 

[exchemist]

I don't know.

I just really feel like unity beyond the Abrahamics is more important... Even the pope doesn't protect his own above the rest -he tells us "who are we to judge" and speaks with the Amazonians on a genuinely spiritual level . Without asking for anything in return.

I feel like reaching out to all humankind is a better way than grouping up under exclusive umbrellas.

Nothing about the phrase "People of the Book" detracts from that, or suggests any exclusive grouping be made, any more than if I were to acknowledge somebody as a fellow Englishman.

Anyway, I commend your sentiment.

 

[Cooky]

Nothing about the phrase "People of the Book" detracts from that, or suggests any exclusive grouping be made, any more than if I were to acknowledge somebody as a fellow Englishman.

Anyway, I commend your sentiment.

Not so long ago, the Catholic Church used to refer to Catholics as "Gods chosen race"...

...We no longer say that. We criticize that now, calling it "triumphalism"... We've evolved - I guess in light of pope Francis' reaching out to the Amazonians, I see the good in wanting to spiritually evolve more.. All of us.

This is just me trying to put my feelings into words. I guess I feel like it would benefit the world if we all evolve together as humanity. And unfortunately, that requires work to be done, which is difficult to do -but I'm trying things. And it's like pulling teeth sometimes, and I hope I'm pulling the right ones.

 

[Cooky]

I guess someone could say I have no business pulling Muslim's teeth. Or anyone's teeth...

...But I'm not the one who said we're "Abrahamics" together, "of the book"...

(Just kidding about that )

 

[exchemist]

Not so long ago, the Catholic Church used to refer to Catholics as "Gods chosen race"...

...We no longer say that. We criticize that now, calling it "triumphalism"... We've evolved - I guess in light of pope Francis' reaching out to the Amazonians, I see the good in wanting to spiritually evolve more.. All of us.

This is just me trying to put my feelings into words. I guess I feel like it would benefit the world if we all evolve together as humanity. And unfortunately, that requires work to be done, which is difficult to do -but I'm trying things. And it's like pulling teeth sometimes, and I hope I'm pulling the right ones.

Well those words still appear in the Roman Canon (Eucharist Prayer 1): "......a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a people set apart", if I remember correctly. However it is not quite clear who the people in question are: I like to think it embraces at least other Christians beside Catholics. Also it is in the context of the institution of the mass, so I don't think one can draw negative conclusions about the rest of the human race from it. It is I think an echo of the chosen people concept in the OT.