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Viraj

Tyaga

Na Asat
Svet. Up. does. And I think others also do. Gita is drawn from Upanishads, and I am sure the Upanishads do speak of Prakriti. Often prakriti is mentioned as PradhAna in Vedas, Upanishads and in brahma Sutras.


Namaste,

Svet.Up. is probably later than other Mukhya Upanishads.The earliest Upanishads,IMO are Taittiriya,Aitareya,Chandogya etc which find mention in early Buddhist texts as well.

BG has strong influence of Samkhya philosophy and also Buddhism(terms like Brahma-Nirvana,Brahma-Bhuta etc shows Bauddha influence.).The author of BG fused many philosophical thoughts of ancient India into a supreme masterpiece as we know it today.

And thank you once again for the information on Pradhana(Pradhana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) it clearly seems to indicate a proto-Prakriti concept,but it is only mentioned from Satapatha Brahmana onwards. :)

EDIT: I checked the source on Wiki,and it redirects me to Vedabase Srimad Bhagavatam(SB!) instead of Satapatha Brahmana(SB).So i'm not sure if Pradhana is mentioned in Satp.Brhm.
 
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Tyaga

Na Asat
"According to Zimmer and Ruzsa Samkhya has non-vedic origins:

Both the agrarian theology of Śiva-Śakti/Sky-Earth and the tradition of yoga (meditation) do not appear to be rooted in the Vedas. Not surprisingly, classical Sāṅkhya is remarkably independent of orthodox Brahmanic traditions, including the Vedas. Sāṅkhya is silent about the Vedas, about their guardians (the Brahmins) and for that matter about the whole caste system, and about the Vedic gods; and it is slightly unfavorable towards the animal sacrifices that characterized the ancient Vedic religion. But all our early sources for the history of Sāṅkhya belong to the Vedic tradition, and it is thus reasonable to suppose that we do not see in them the full development of the Sāṅkhya system, but rather occasional glimpses of its development as it gained gradual acceptance in the Brahmanic fold."
Samkhya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pranams,

I thought Samkhya was an Astika philosophy.

And Vedas does contain sky-earth concept(Dyaus-Prthvi).This concept is probably pre-Vedic in origin,and can be dated back to the Indo-European era since it is found in many other Eurasian traditions as well.

For Vedic era meditation and asceticism i recommend this book:

Tapta-Marga: Asceticism and Initiation in Vedic India - Walter O. Kaelber - Google Books
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Tyāga;3719923 said:
Namaste,

Svet.Up. is probably later than other Mukhya Upanishads.The earliest Upanishads,IMO are Taittiriya,Aitareya,Chandogya etc which find mention in early Buddhist texts as well.

BG has strong influence of Samkhya philosophy and also Buddhism(terms like Brahma-Nirvana,Brahma-Bhuta etc shows Bauddha influence.).The author of BG fused many philosophical thoughts of ancient India into a supreme masterpiece as we know it today.

And thank you once again for the information on Pradhana(Pradhana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) it clearly seems to indicate a proto-Prakriti concept,but it is only mentioned from Satapatha Brahmana onwards. :)

EDIT: I checked the source on Wiki,and it redirects me to Vedabase Srimad Bhagavatam(SB!) instead of Satapatha Brahmana(SB).So i'm not sure if Pradhana is mentioned in Satp.Brhm.

Namaste tyaga

I know pradhana occurring in Yanur Veda. And i am sure it must be there elsewhere too. Prakriti is subject of Veda too. See asiya vamiya sukta for example.

But honestly what can one benefit by subjecting the scripture, which is timeless, to a historical or chronological analysis. I mean, what Viraja is is clear from paingala up. cited above.:)
 

Tyaga

Na Asat
Pranam Sri Atanu,

See asiya vamiya sukta for example.

Could you provide the Mandala and sukta no.?I'm hearing about this sukta for the first time :) Is it part of mainstream Sruti texts?

But honestly what can one benefit by subjecting the scripture, which is timeless, to a historical or chronological analysis.

We must have a chronology to dig out our ancient past,and our sacred scriptures are one of the primary sources of our ancient period.Currently,the early history of Bharatam is filled with theories like Aryan invasion/migration.

I know many Hindus view Vedas as Apaurusheya(this includes my grandparents) and such,i'm not going to question their beliefs,but i simply have my own POV :)
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I know that this is hardly helpful but I had only heard of Viraja in relation to the Viraja River. This river is meant to be a marginally line between the material and spiritual realities and the place where the atma reside before entering either the material or spiritual realities.

I'm pretty sure that this concept is endemic to the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya although someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
If you are talking about pradhAna --
that is in the kAty.shrautasUtra-m,
which is shruti.

If you are talking about pradhana,
this word is found twice in the Rg:​
R.V.1.52.9 & R.V.1.169.2...​
...both instances occur in sUkta-s
of Indra.​
 

Tyaga

Na Asat
If you are talking about pradhAna --
that is in the kAty.shrautasUtra-m,
which is shruti.



Pranam,

Shrauta sutras are sruti texts,but i won't trust them that much because it may reflect the authors own POV.And there are other Srauta sutras like Baudhyana,Sankhayana,Apastamba etc which may contain different POV's(like , one may support animal sacrifice,while others may replace it with substitute offerings).

Nevertheless,i wonder what meaning does the term Pradhana have in Ktyn.SS.
 

Tyaga

Na Asat
I know that this is hardly helpful but I had only heard of Viraja in relation to the Viraja River. This river is meant to be a marginally line between the material and spiritual realities and the place where the atma reside before entering either the material or spiritual realities.

I'm pretty sure that this concept is endemic to the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya although someone correct me if I'm wrong.


Namaste Madhuri,

This is an interesting information,it reminds me of Japanese Sanzu river of death!

I however,don't think this river has anything to do with the Viraj which is mentioned in the Vedas(which is clearly a primeval force ).
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Tyāga;3720112 said:
[/INDENT][/INDENT]
Pranam,

Shrauta sutras are sruti texts,but i won't trust them that much because it may reflect the authors own POV.And there are other Srauta sutras like Baudhyana,Sankhayana,Apastamba etc which may contain different POV's(like , one may support animal sacrifice,while others may replace it with substitute offerings).

Those sh.sutra-s have the background
of the shakha they belong to. They are
supposed to have their own POV.​
 

Tyaga

Na Asat
Those sh.sutra-s have the background
of the shakha they belong to. They are
supposed to have their own POV.​

This might sound dumb,but does the SS's also belong to specific shakhas?I thought they were independent works by independent authors....
 

Poeticus

| abhyAvartin |
Tyāga;3720135 said:
does the SS's also belong to specific shakhas?I thought they were independent works by independent authors....

Shrautasutra-s belong
to particular shakha-s.
For example, Apastamba
belongs to Kri.Yaj.Veda.​
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
I know that this is hardly helpful but I had only heard of Viraja in relation to the Viraja River. This river is meant to be a marginally line between the material and spiritual realities and the place where the atma reside before entering either the material or spiritual realities.

I'm pretty sure that this concept is endemic to the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya although someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Ya. A bhakta knows best. :):)
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Tyāga;3720113 said:
I however,don't think this river has anything to do with the Viraj which is mentioned in the Vedas(which is clearly a primeval force ).

It probably isn't related but the Viraj river is also primeval in a sense. It exists independently to the creation of the universe, so before and after the creation.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
It probably isn't related but the Viraj river is also primeval in a sense. It exists independently to the creation of the universe, so before and after the creation.

Yes. Varanasi is not just the physical place but is the place at the confluence of two rivers, vara and nasi, and that is the place between the eye brows.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
See asiya vamiya sukta for example.
Read that. Superb. Very heavy on symbolism. Very difficult to understand. Here is what Tilak says about it:

"An independent corroboration of the conclusion we have drawn from the legends of the Dashagvas and Dîrghatamas is furnished by the number of seasons mentioned in certain Vedic texts. A period of sunshine of ten months followed by along night of two months can well be described as five seasons of two months each, followed by the sinking of the sun into the waters below the horizon; and as a matter of fact we find the year so described in I, 164, 12, a verse which occurs also in the Atharva Veda (IX, 9, 12) with a slight variation and in the Prashnopaniṣhad I, 11. It may be literally translated as follows: — “The five-footed (pañcha-pâdam) Father of twelve forms, they say, is full of watery vapors (purṣîhiṇam) in the farther half (pare ardhe) of the heaven. These others again say (that) He the far-seeing (vichakṣhaṇam) is placed on the six-spoked (ṣhaḍ-are) and seven-wheeled (car), in the nearer (upare scil. ardhe) half of the heaven.”* The adjective “far-seeing” is made to qualify “seven-wheeled” instead of “He” in the Atharva Veda, (vichakṣhaṇe) being in the locative case while Shaṇkarâchârya in his commentary on the Prashnopaniṣhad splits upare into two words u and pare taking u as an expletive. But these readings do not materially alter the meaning of the verse. The context everywhere clearly indicates that the year-god of twelve months (âkṛiti X, 85, 5) is here described. The previous verse in the hymn (Ṛig. I, 164) mentions “The twelve-spoked wheel, in which 720 sons of Agni are established,” a clear reference to a year of twelve months with Tao days and nights. There is, therefore, no doubt that the passage contains the description of the year and the two halves of the verse, which are introduced by the phrases “they say’” and “others say,” give us two opinions about the nature of the year-god of twelve forms.

Let us now see what these opinions are. Some say that the year-god is five-footed (pañcha-pâdam), that is divided into five seasons; and the others say that he has a six-spoked car, or six seasons. It is clear from this that the number of seasons was held to be five by some and six by others in early days. Why should there be this difference of opinion? The Aitareya Brâhmaṇa I, 1, (and the Taittirîya Saṁhitâ I, 6, 2, 3) explains that the two seasons of Hemanta and Shishir together made a joint season, thereby reducing the number of seasons from six to five. But this explanation seems to be an afterthought, for in the Shatapatha Brâhmaṇa, XIII, 6, 1, 10, Varṣhâ and Sharad are compounded for this purpose instead of Hemanta and Shishir. This shows that in the days of the Taittirîya Saṁhitâ and the Brâhmaṇas it was not definitely known or settled which two seasons out of six should be compounded to reduce the number to five; but as five seasons were sometimes mentioned in the Vedas, some explanation was felt to be necessary to account for the smaller number and such explanation was devised by taking together any two consecutive seasons out of six and regarding them as one joint season of four months. But the explanation is too vague to be true; and we cannot believe that the system of compounding airy two seasons according to one’s choice was ever followed in practice. We must, therefore, give up the explanation as unsatisfactory and see if the verse from the Ṛig-Veda, quoted above, enables us to find out a better explanation of the fact that the seasons were once held to be five. Now the first half of this verse describes the five-footed father as full of watery vapors in the farther part of heaven, while the year of six-spoked car is said to be far-seeing. In short, purîṣhiṇam (full of, or dwelling in waters) in the first line appears to be a counterpart of vichakṣhaṇam (far-seeing) in the second line.

This is made clear by the verses which follow. Thus the 13th verse in the hymn speaks of “the five-spoked wheel” as remaining entire and unbroken though ancient; and the next or the 14th verse says that “the unwasting wheel with its felly revolves; the ten draw (it) yoked over the expanse. The sun’s eye goes covered with rajas (aerial vapor); all worlds are dependent on him.”* Comparing this with the 11th verse first quoted, it may be easily seen that purîṣhiṇam (full of watery vapors) and rajasâ âvṛitam (covered with rajas) are almost synonymous phrases and the only inference we can draw from them is that the five-footed year-god or the sun event to dwell in watery vapors i.e., became invisible, or covered with darkness and (rajas), for some time in the farther part of the heaven. The expression that “The ten, yoked, draw his carriage,” (also cf. Ṛig. IX, 63, 9) further shows that the five seasons were not made by combining any two consecutive seasons out of six as explained in the Brâhmaṇas (for in that case the number of horses could not be called ten), but that a real year of five seasons or ten months was here intended. When the number of seasons became increased to six, the year-god ceased to be purîṣhin (full of waters) and became vichakṣhaṇam or far-seeing. We have seen that the sun, as represented by Dîrghatamas, grew old in the tenth month and riding on aerial waters went into the ocean. The same .idea is expressed in the present verse which describes two different views about the nature of the year, one of five and the other of six seasons and contrasts their leading features with each other.

Thus pare ardhe is contrasted with upare ardhe in the second line, pañcha-pâdam (compare pacñhâre in the next verse, i.e. Ṛig-Veda I. 164, 13) with ṣhaḍ-are, and purîṣhinam with vichakṣhaṇam. In short, the verse under consideration describes the year either (1) as five-footed, and lying in waters in the farther part of heaven, or (2) as mounted on a six-spoked car and far-seeing in the nearer part of the heaven. These two descriptions cannot evidently apply to seasons in one and the same place, and the artifice of combining two consecutive seasons cannot be accepted as a solution of the question. Five seasons and ten months followed by the watery residence of the sun or dark nights, is what is precisely described in the first half of this passage (I, 164, 12), and, from what has been said hitherto, it will be easily seen that it is the Arctic year of ten months that is here described. The verse, and especially the contrast between purîṣhinam and vichakṣhaṇam, does not appear to have attracted the attention it deserves. Bu in the light of the Arctic theory the description is now as intelligible as any. The Vedic bards have here preserved for us the memory of a year of five seasons or ten months, although their year had long been changed into one of twelve months. The explanation given in the Brâhmaṇas are all so many post-facto devices to account for the mention of five seasons in the Ṛig-Veda, and I do not think we are bound to accept them when the fact of five seasons can be better accounted for. I have remarked before that in searching for evidence of ancient traditions we must expect to find later traditions associated with them, and Ṛig. I, 164, 12, discussed above, is a good illustration of this remark.

The first line of the verse, though it speaks of five seasons, describes the year as twelve-formed; while the second line, which deals with a year of six seasons or twelve months, speaks of it as “seven-wheeled,” that is made up of seven months or seven suns, or seven rays of the sun. This may appear rather inconsistent at the first sight; but the history of words in any language will show that old expressions are preserved in the language long after they have ceased to denote the ideas primarily expressed by them. Thus we now use coins for exchange, yet the word “pecuniary” which is derived from pecus = cattle, is still retained in the language; and similarly, we still speak of the rising of the sun, though we now know that it is not the luminary that rises, but the earth, by rotating round its axis, makes the sun visible to us. Very much in the same way and by the same process, expressions like saptâshva (seven horsed) or sapta-chakra (seven-wheeled), as applied to the year or the sun, must have become recognized and established as current phrases in the language before the hymns assumed their present form, and the Vedic bards could not have discarded them even when they knew that they were not applicable to the state of things before them. On the contrary, as we find in the Brâhmaṇas every artifice, that ingenuity could suggest, was tried to make these old phrases harmonize with the state of things then in, vogue, and from the religious or the sacrificial point of view it was quite necessary to do so. But when we have to examine the question from a historical stand-point, it is our duty to separate the relics of the older period from facts or incidents of the later period with which the former are sometimes inevitably mixed up; and if we analyze the verse in question (I, 164, 12) in this way we shall clearly see in it the traces of a year of ten months and five seasons.

The same principle is also applicable in other cases, as, for instance, when we find the Navagvas mentioned together with the seven vîpras in VI, 22, 2. The bards, who gave us the present version of the hymns, knew of the older or primeval state of things only by traditions, and it is no wonder if these traditions are occasionally mixed up with later events. On the contrary the preservation of so many traditions of the primeval home is itself a wonder, and it is this fact, which invests the oldest Veda with such peculiar importance from the religious as well as the historical point of view.
Lokamanya Bal Gangadhar Tilak — The Arctic Home in the Vedas — Chapter 7 (page 167 onwards)
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
* Ṛig. I, 164, 12, — पञ्चपादं पितरं दवादशाक्र्तिं दिव आहुः परे अर्धे पुरीषिणम । अथेमे अन्य उपरे विचक्षणं सप्तचक्रे षळर आहुरर्पितम ॥

* Ṛig. I, 164, 13, & 14, — पञ्चारे चक्रे परिवर्तमाने तस्मिन्ना तस्थुर्भुवनानि विश्वा । तस्य नाक्षस्तप्यते भूरिभारः सनादेव न शीर्यते सनाभिः ॥ सनेमि चक्रमजरं वि वाव्र्त उत्तानायां दश युक्ता वहन्ति । सूर्यस्य चक्षू रजसैत्याव्र्तं तस्मिन्नार्पिता भुवनानि विश्वा ॥
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Tyāga;3720087 said:
Pranam Sri Atanu

Could you provide the Mandala and sukta no.?I'm hearing about this sukta for the first time :) Is it part of mainstream Sruti texts?...

Rig 1.164

I quoted it in another thread. The query of aatmaan is raised in this:

RV 1.164.04 Who has seen the primeval (being) at the time of his being born; what is that endowed with substance which the unsubstantial sustains; from earth are the breath and blood; but where is the aatmaan; who may repair to the sage to ask this?

[That endowed with subtance: asthanvantam yad anastha_ bibharti = lit., that which having bone the boneless sustains; the boneless is the prakr.ti of the sa_n:khya, or the ma_ya_ of the veda_ntins, which is formless matter, or spiritual illusion, from which the material and visible world proceeds; where is the soul: bhu_mya_ asur-asr.g-a_tma_ kva svit: bhu_mi = sthu_la s'ari_ra, gross body; asuh = breath, the su_ks.ma s'ari_ra, or suble body; asr.j = blood, the aggregate elements of which the body is formed; a_tma_ or cetana_, the thinking principle, although connected with gross and subtle form, is nowhere perceptible as a separate object, and not to be apprehended, either by pupil or teacher].
 

Tyaga

Na Asat
Ah,sukta 1.164....how could i miss that! It is indeed a highly philosophical sukta containing perhaps the most famous Rig Vedic passage 'ekam sad vipra bahudha vadanti'....


Thanks for pointing it out both of you,i had no idea about the name of this particular sukta,although i knew it is dedicated to the Visvedevatas :)
 
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