Virginia Tech school shooting

[UnityNow101]

I found this article interesting..I don't agree with everything that Alex Jones talks about or all of his big government conspiracies that he says are real. But this is something that seems strange to me:

"Ironic therefore it is that Virginia is a concealed carry state and yet Virginia Tech campus recently enforced a policy prohibiting "unauthorized possession, storage or control" of firearms on campus. According to gun rights activists such as Aaron Zelman of Jews For The Preservation of Firearms, VA Tech has "blood on its hands" for disarming the 21 victims who could potentially have defended themselves against the killer. "

You can see the full article here:http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/va_tech_massacre_another_gov_black_op.htm

 

[Mathematician]

Since Columbine there has largely been no change in gun control policy, so I'm left to wonder where the author draws the conclusion that "this could very well be another government black-op that will be used as justification for more gun control and turing our schools into prisons, festooned with armed guards, surveillance cameras and biometric scanning to gain entry." The school should have had armed police, not armed students.


Politicial pundits and politicians are trying to blame video games and movies, calling for stricter regulations on what children can view. Well first of all the shooter was apparently working on a student visa, so I don't think Hollywood soaked into his brain in the short time he was here.

And secondly, why not share the blame on the guns? Hypocrites.

 

[Booko]

There's nothing at all strange about a campus with a "no guns" policy. I can't think of any campus that *doesn't* have a "no guns" policy. All of the colleges and universities I went to had "no guns" policies, and that was, um, decades ago, before school shootings were even on the radar screen.

If I had to look, I'd go ask someone at Michigan Tech first. They'd be high on my list of most likely campuses to allow firearms. There's lots of hunting around there, and it's a normal part of life.

I only saw hockey sticks when I was there the one time.


Alex Jones, in his usual fashion, tries to make something terribly mundane and typical out to be unusual.

 

[Booko]

Politicial pundits and politicians are trying to blame video games and movies, calling for stricter regulations on what children can view.

*sigh* People have been pointing out for years that the Japanese watch far more violent fare than we do, and yet they don't go off and do this sort of thing. There has to be something more than violent video games and movies at work here, or Japan would be a very violent place indeed.

 

[UnityNow101]

Alex Jones is always a bit over-the-top with his conclusions but it is interesting from the link provided in the article to see that VT just banned concealed weapons around school property and then not much later this massacre happens. It could be coincidence, but it is strange. Why not share the blame on the guns? Maybe because if there would have been someone WITH a concealed weapon on campus there may NOT have been 33 dead as we speak. The criminals are going to find ways to get their weapons...Even if that means illegally. Taking weapons away from the law abiding would tie the hands of those that could save people from wicked doers like this. I am not a big fan of guns but I know that the criminals are going to get them either way. Why not allow the law abiding the ability to defend themselves from people that want to do us harm?

 

[Mathematician]

Alex Jones is always a bit over-the-top with his conclusions but it is interesting from the link provided in the article to see that VT just banned concealed weapons around school property and then not much later this massacre happens. It could be coincidence, but it is strange. Why not share the blame on the guns? Maybe because if there would have been someone WITH a concealed weapon on campus there may NOT have been 33 dead as we speak. The criminals are going to find ways to get their weapons...Even if that means illegally. Taking weapons away from the law abiding would tie the hands of those that could save people from wicked doers like this. I am not a big fan of guns but I know that the criminals are going to get them either way. Why not allow the law abiding the ability to defend themselves from people that want to do us harm?

If the campus had armed police and payed attention the original e-mail, you would have seen similar results.

 

[UnityNow101]

I agree...they didn't seem to do anything. There were hours between the initial shooting and the college massacre. How did they allow the gunman to just freely travel around campus? Were there not armed police around looking for the guy?

 

[NoahideHiker]

Blaming guns for deaths is like blaming my pencil for misspelled words.

 

[Jaymes]

I am sick of this talk that more guns will decrease gun violence. Are you even listening to what you're saying? MORE guns in the hands of MORE people will somehow dissuade someone that already wants to die from going out and killing people?

Do you realize the impracticality of all of this? Every person that you want to have a gun, for them to be effective, would need to have training on how to shoot. They would have to shoot regularly to keep their aim good. They would also have to have training on how to shoot CALMLY in situations like this. You're of zero help and actually a hindrance if you try to shoot a gunman and are shaking so wildly that you shoot a bystander.

I also don't even want to think about what would happen if someone with a gun misinterpreted a situation as being potentially harmful when it wasn't... that happens often enough with our police, and they're trained for this sort of thing.

 

[azza]

Having armed students may have resulted in less deaths. Thats one outcome. Another one is this. Once people heard the first gun shots 100 armed students in the immediate vicinity pull out their weapons. Whats gonna happen next? How are they all gonna know who the original shooter is? It's not like they are on comms like the cops. Just having a gun doesnt suddenly make you a trained professional. What you now have is 100 armed teenagers scared out of their minds and in fear for their lives. What if the next person they see has a gun? Do they wait to identify a threat or do they let rip? If they panic and shoot first do the other 99 armed students now think he is the crazy gunman? Then what? Police arriving on the scene then have multiple gunmen to deal with. Or witnesses telling of "a guy with a gun over there" and someone else saw "another guy with a gun somewhere else". This could easily turn into total chaos with an even higher body count. Something to think about.

 

[Ciscokid]

Blaming guns for deaths is like blaming my pencil for misspelled words.

Bingo. Making guns illegal simply takes them out of the hands of good citizens.

 

[darkpenguin]

Having armed students may have resulted in less deaths. Thats one outcome. Another one is this. Once people heard the first gun shots 100 armed students in the immediate vicinity pull out their weapons. Whats gonna happen next? How are they all gonna know who the original shooter is? It's not like they are on comms like the cops. Just having a gun doesnt suddenly make you a trained professional. What you now have is 100 armed teenagers scared out of their minds and in fear for their lives. What if the next person they see has a gun? Do they wait to identify a threat or do they let rip? If they panic and shoot first do the other 99 armed students now think he is the crazy gunman? Then what? Police arriving on the scene then have multiple gunmen to deal with. Or witnesses telling of "a guy with a gun over there" and someone else saw "another guy with a gun somewhere else". This could easily turn into total chaos with an even higher body count. Something to think about.

Good call!

 

[darkpenguin]

Bingo. Making guns illegal simply takes them out of the hands of good citizens.

It kind of begs the question of why 'decent' and 'good' citizens want or feel the need to own a gun in the first place.
I do hope that anyone who owns a gun isn't kidding themselves into thinking that they havn't bought the gun as they might have to kill someone one day as thats what guns are made for, killing.
If you think that you have a gun for protection then I hope you are aware that the end product of that protection is death!

 

[Ciscokid]

It kind of begs the question of why 'decent' and 'good' citizens want or feel the need to own a gun in the first place.
I do hope that anyone who owns a gun isn't kidding themselves into thinking that they havn't bought the gun as they might have to kill someone one day as thats what guns are made for, killing.
If you think that you have a gun for protection then I hope you are aware that the end product of that protection is death!

I don't own a gun, I live in a very safe neighborhood. If I did own a gun and someone broke into my home and assaulted me or my family I would waste them...are you suggesting that their death would or should bother me?

 

[Mathematician]

Bingo. Making guns illegal simply takes them out of the hands of good citizens.

The difference being gun control and not universal gun ban.

Students being allowed to carry handguns in a class room is going to reduce crime? Yeah right.

It's interesting that "arms" does not mean just firearms, but any weapon, meaning if we want to take such a strict, literal view of the 2nd amendment I should be allowed to bing a bomb or katana wherever I want.

 

[Ciscokid]

The difference being gun control and not universal gun ban.

Students being allowed to carry handguns in a class room is going to reduce crime? Yeah right.

It's interesting that "arms" does not mean just firearms, but any weapon, meaning if we want to take such a strict, literal view of the 2nd amendment I should be allowed to bing a bomb or katana wherever I want.

I'm ok with gun control, I don't think students need to be carrying handguns around. The Universities are private or state run entities and therefore should be allowed to state no guns on property.

 

[Booko]

It kind of begs the question of why 'decent' and 'good' citizens want or feel the need to own a gun in the first place.

Next time you live in this country and know what it's like, let me know.

I do hope that anyone who owns a gun isn't kidding themselves into thinking that they havn't bought the gun as they might have to kill someone one day as thats what guns are made for, killing.

Next time you can demonstrate you know anything about guns, I might even consider listening to you on the subject.

What is the only practical use of a Ruger .22 bull barrel pistol?

A hint: It isn't effective for killing anything. Shreds paper targets nicely, though.

I wish you would not take tragedy like this as an opportunity to push your your political point of view, which from where I'm sitting appears to be based on little knowledge of this country and the actual way we live here.

If you think that you have a gun for protection then I hope you are aware that the end product of that protection is death!

If you have a connection the Internet, then I hope you are aware that the end product is often a waste of perfectly good electrons.

Fortunately, there are other good points and questions that have been raised in this thread.

(A particular nod to the problems that would be caused by an armed student populace when the police show up trying to deal with a situation like this. It could be a real Charlie Foxtrot, as mentioned.)

I'd raise another for those of you in college here now. When I was in college it was...uh...years ago, and it was small college. For some of the time, we had student policing, which was actually very good, because we all knew if someone showed up that didn't belong. There was one professional security guard that organized the whole thing. If there was a problem students couldn't deal with, he was called.

We went to a "rent-a-pig" scenario, which turned out to be a disaster. What we got for security was a bunch of macho men who couldn't have passed muster to be real cops. We even had one guy who went around talking about crap like Hitler had the right idea. Yeah, I feel real safe around such a guy. :cover: And they used to jack up the few black male students we had for daring to walk around a campus where we all knew they belonged. sheesh

Anyway -- what's it like out there now? Are your security guards/campus police effective? Are they anywhere near well trained for situations like this? It's possible the larger campuses have effective police forces (Western Michigan U. seems to have), but what about those smaller places?

As I mentioned in the other thread, I was about 10 feet away from getting shot myself as an undergrad, back oh in the 70s. It was the all-too-typical story, although at that time it was a very very rare event. Crazy boyfriend gets upset relationship ended and comes in to kidnap ex-girlfriend. If he'd been inclined to shoot anyone, he could have taken out 5 students along with the one employee he actually did kill, and very easily. He only shot the one employee because the guy tried to stop him. The rest of us knew that unarmed there was nothing we could do.

Because of my experience, I will say this about the idea that "if they didn't have a gun, they'd just use something else." Well, yeah, someone like that would use something else. But the "something else" is not nearly as effective, and is easier to defend against. Someone with a knife can't kill me from 10 feet away and can't kill 5 people in mere moments.

If I thought we could find a practical way to ratchet down the number of guns here, I'd consider it. I just think it's about as currently workable as, say, preventing people from illegally crossing the Rio Grande, which they do in droves nightly.

And so, Darkpenguin, if you have solutions to what we're finding to be intractable problems, please call our President and maybe a few Congressmen and explain to them how they can effectively keep guns out of our society. Maybe you can tell them how they can keep people from streaming across the Rio Grande while you're at it. Oh yeah -- some solutions for the increasing problem of sex slavery would help as well.

Anyway, thanks a lot for giving us the solutions to all those intractable problem we dumm Amurricans couldn't come up with!

:sarcastic

 

[standing_alone]

It kind of begs the question of why 'decent' and 'good' citizens want or feel the need to own a gun in the first place.

Hunting, sport shooting, protection, because they want to and it's their right under the Constitution..........

I do hope that anyone who owns a gun isn't kidding themselves into thinking that they havn't bought the gun as they might have to kill someone one day as thats what guns are made for, killing.

I don't own a gun, but my family used to have a shotgun and a rifle. They were for hunting, not protection. They never were bought with the intention to kill another human being and in the time we owned them, never once had to be used for such a purpose. Americans have guns for many reasons and the most common reason, at leats around my parts, is hunting, not protection or to shoot other people.

If you think that you have a gun for protection then I hope you are aware that the end product of that protection is death!

Only if you fatally wound the intruder threatening your security. And even if that intruder is fatally wounded, who would you rather have dead, the person trying to protect himself/herself (and perhaps his/her loved ones) or the person that shows no respect to the rights and security of others?

 

[jamaesi]

Anyway -- what's it like out there now? Are your security guards/campus police effective? Are they anywhere near well trained for situations like this? It's possible the larger campuses have effective police forces (Western Michigan U. seems to have), but what about those smaller places?

OSU is the second largest Uni here, but they've made plans in case of an attack like this. Our dorms are also on 24-7 lockdown- you have to have your ID key to get into your dorm- and only your dorm. Just because of the program I live in I have access to two other houses/dorms that are in our program and can get into another dorm that's in charge of our program- but those are all places I need to be. Most only have access to their dorm. At VT they only had lockdown at night.

I hate to cut and paste this whole article, but you have to register for The Lantern (our school paper) to read the whole story.

OSU police prepared if shooting occurs

Tim Hoffine



In the wake of a shooting at Virginia Tech University Monday morning that left 33 people dead, University Police and Columbus Division of Police officials said Ohio State is prepared to respond should a similar act occur here.

"Our first responders would immediately go in and stop the shooter," said Columbus police Sgt. Kevin Corcoran.

Corcoran, the public information officer for the Columbus police, said in a situation with an active shooter, "usually we'll go in to stop him because the lives are more important."

Corcoran said Columbus police typically act at the request of OSU police, which has primary jurisdiction over campus.

"We have plans and practice with Columbus police and SWAT units," said Rick Amweg, assistant chief of OSU police. "Ohio State has a special response team that works on these kinds of things. We have quick action deployment drills."

He said OSU also has an emergency and disaster preparedness coordinator, Robert Armstrong, whose responsibility it is to make sure plans are in place for circumstances including terrorist attacks, tornadoes and school shootings.

"(Our response) depends entirely on the scenario," Armstrong said. Students could be asked to "shelter in place" or to evacuate buildings, depending on the circumstances, he said.

OSU President Karen Holbrook said in a statement that she knows this kind of incident has the possibility of occurring on any campus.

"No one can fully prepare for something of this magnitude," she said. "I want to assure you that the safety of our community is one of our highest priorities."

Students could be notified how to react through various forms of communication, including an automated system in which the university could contact 50,000 people by telephone in 20 minutes, Armstrong said.

He also said contact between residence hall advisers and central university administrators could also prove a valuable method of communication should an emergency occur in the residence halls.

Although many steps can be taken by universities and law enforcement agencies, Armstrong said students can also play an important role in making sure emergency situations are properly handled.

"This can happen absolutely anywhere. It could take place here," Armstrong said. "We do our best to train for it, to plan for it. We do whatever we can to prevent it where possible, but students need to be aware, to pay attention."

 

[Booko]

I don't own a gun, but my family used to have a shotgun and a rifle. They were for hunting, not protection. They never were bought with the intention to kill another human being and in the time we owned them, never once had to be used for such a purpose. Americans have guns for many reasons and the most common reason, at leats around my parts, is hunting, not protection or to shoot other people.

Yeah, Wisconsin and Michigan have a lot in common.

The guns I have now belonged to my grandfather and my father (all whopping 2 of them...woot). My grandfather was a farmer in the summer and held down a factory job, when one was available, on top of that. There were times when, just to put food on the table for his family, he went hunting (mostly for wild birds and small game). He also trapped furs, which a century ago there were still mink around.

We had fewer hard times, but we did have them. There were a few times when, if it hadn't been for hunting and fishing, we would've been without sufficient food.

And then there are the times when you're just out in the wild and happen to run into a black bear. Now, if you're not an idiot, you don't do anything to annoy the bear, and it doesn't bother you. But I wouldn't be stupid enough in some parts of Michigan to go far into the wild unarmed either.

I've pointed out to darkpenguin once before that, as far as I know, black bears are not a serious danger to human life in the UK. Well, you can see how much the evidence stuck. :sarcastic

Only if you fatally wound the intruder threatening your security. And even if that intruder is fatally wounded, who would you rather have dead, the person trying to protect himself/herself (and perhaps his/her loved ones) or the person that shows no respect to the rights and security of others?

Many parts of the U.S. are sparsely populated, as I've pointed out in discussions like this before. If I were in the UP of Michigan and called the cops -- they might be able to show up -- in maybe an hour or so, depending on where they happened to be. Yeah, that would be a help.

The UP is a very serious gun area, and for some odd reason -- people don't shoot each other with those guns. Maybe it's because they were raised to be responsible about it from when they were wee bairns. Lord knows, I certainly was. Being a girl didn't even let me off the hook. My parents, based on their own experiences, knew hunting and fishing were things I might have to know in order to survive. After all, they had to know about them.

But not to take this too far off the subject -- I'm still at a loss to figure any legitimate reason why a student on a campus would need to have a gun. And, as it's been pointed out, having armed students in the presence of too much drink would likely cause more problems than it solves.

While security is obviously something to consider, as are more workable ways to warn those on campus that there's a dangerous situation, I still believe the long term solution lies in finding out why people do these things, and finding ways to prevent them going off in the first place.

I do hold to American ideas of liberty, but honestly, as a matter of morals, we have some responsiblity to look after our fellows as well. We are our brother's keeper.