Virginia Tech school shooting

[azza]

little one, I would love to see the cops around here try to take my guns away, they woulden't even make it down the street...my guns are mine and mine alone, Big Bertha in particular. the rest of them, honestly, I couldn't care less about 'em. its an American citizens right to own a firearm. now, trying to take them away would be unconstitutional, and as soon as a government betrays one of its essential building blocks, all hell will break loose, and then I would be really happy to have my rifle by my side. people thse days are grown up too politically correct, the shooter was INSANE, any glipse at his writings, workings, etc. can tell you that. but noooOOOoooo "oh, he's just unique, i'm sure he will be fi-" *BLAM* if someone is as mentally unsound as he was, for the love of the gods...do something, save a life.

See. Until people come to the point where they don't connect removing their guns with removing their testicles nothing is gonna change. Although having said that, I may be moving to the US next year for work and my list of priorities will be this. 1 - Rent apartment. 2 - Buy gun.

 

[love]

I tell you I am about sick of this "blame game". One sicko in his own perverted mind decided to take the lives of all the people he could and everyone is pointing the finger as who is to blame. This was not a conspiracy with others patting him on the back and telling him what a great thing he is doing. People aren't dancing in the streets somewhere. This was small time compared to what a good martyr can do with a bomb strapped on. The killing of innocents is never justified.

 

[Booko]

There seems to be a thought by some that criticism of the US gun culture is an attack on all things American. Bollocks.

Nah, but I do find it irritating when someone bases their view of our culture based on what they see come out of Hollywood, and then steadfastly refuse to be confused by any evidence to the contrary.

Every time I've been in Europe (and mostly the UK) people ask me silly questions like how many horses do I own (???) and how many guns do I have (uh...one UNFIREABLE one???). The assumption is pretty clear in my experience and that of others who have spent time abroad: people unacquainted with the U.S. mostly have a very bizarre view of what it's like here. They seem to think most of us are armed in some way, and that's laughably untrue.

Now, YOU don't do that, and most of the RF denizens don't. But then, you've been here with us talking for a while, so small wonder if you know better.

An example, here in NZ most folk know how to shoot. We have access to rifles, shotguns etc because people here like to hunt and because farmers, among others, often need to have access to firearms & folk are licensed before they are allowed access to weaponry. Do we have regular massacres at schools across NZ? Nope. Why I wonder (rhetorically)?

Here in the U.S. most people do not know how to shoot. In rural areas, more people do.

Ah, don't wonder rhetorically! My completely uneducated guess? Well, actually it's more like a couple of questions about NZ:

1. How's your mental healthcare system compared to ours?

2. The U.S. has historically bent waaay backwards in favor of personal liberty. Even to the point where people who are mental are often not kept monitored or contained in anyway because they won't consent to it (I've written about my cousin in another one of these threads). I believe it's worth discussing whether our emphasis on personal liberty has gone too far in some ways.

3. How's your crime rate and how lawless are things generally? We've developed into a culture where increasing numbers of people think if something isn't nailed down, they're "entitled" to it. Things that would've got you roundly condemned and shunned by your friends and neighbors when I was young are now not even considered noteworty, and certainly not immoral or criminal. (Paradoxically, other things have improved, but that's another thread.)

Because handgun usage is severely limited here, you must be a licensed handgun owner and be a current member of a handgun club. So before the US members of this forum declare us somehow benighted and incapable of understanding, we do.

As I mentioned in a previous post, handguns are my greatest concern, because the problem is usually not hunting guns. There are people who can justify having one for personal protection in their home, but we have no means to ensure that anyone actually knows how to use them properly, and I'm not sure it's very possible for us to do much about that.

And as I also mentioned, we have this little problem in our Constitution that makes it rather hard to make too many demands on gun owners generally. We have limits on our "right" to bear arms, obviously, or it would be legal to own all sorts of things, like a Stinger missle, but it isn't legal to own that.

We can potentially make some demands on, say, handgun owners, at least in some cases, but it's a sticky wicket to demand licensing for all gun owners. It would similar to, legally speaking, demanding people be licensed and registered according to which religion they choose to follow.

There are a lot of things it probably isn't legally possible to do here unless we first have an amendment to the Constitution that tones down the 2nd Amendment in some way. And getting an amendment passed is very very difficult to do.

To my knowledge, this is not a problem other countries have to deal with when they make decisions about what is legitimate gun ownership.

That's something few non-Americans I've had a discussion with on the subject seem to even be aware of, much less understand.

But until y'all understand that key difference, then you don't understand why it's not as possible for us to just do what you've done as easily as you think.

 

[azza]

I tell you I am about sick of this "blame game". One sicko in his own perverted mind decided to take the lives of all the people he could and everyone is pointing the finger as who is to blame. This was not a conspiracy with others patting him on the back and telling him what a great thing he is doing. People aren't dancing in the streets somewhere. This was small time compared to what a good martyr can do with a bomb strapped on. The killing of innocents is never justified.

If you don't start pointing fingers to find the source of a problem then you won't find how to fix the problem.

 

[Booko]

It is not a question of gun control. It is a question of 'gun' culture, or to be more precise, Americans have not grown out of the wild wild west 'cowboy' mentallity, as reflected by her global imperialistic policy, which then reflected in the common behavior of the American citizens who believe in violence is the way to settle a difference or to gain an upper hand, or the survival of the stronger, and no pity on the meek and weak.

Your ignorance of American culture(s) rears its ugly head once again.

You live so close to us, and understand so little. What a shame.

The only way is for American to reflect on their current culture and stop encouraging "If you enter my house, I shall shoot you first to kill you, because I assume that if I do not kill you first, you are going to harm me!"

Do people of good will typically walk into your house uninvited in Canada?

It's news to me.

If all you want to do is more mindless America-bashing, please go start a thread on that.

And then we can all just ignore it and have a real conversation.

 

[Booko]

The easiest place is to hide a tree is amongst other trees ( guns are less noticeable in the USA because there are so many and they are not unusual.)

Terry have you actually BEEN here???

Guns are *certainly* unusual to see here, unless you're at a shooting range or it's deer hunting season, and when it comes to shooting ranges, there aren't that many and the parking lots are not large, which should tell you something.

I can't recall the last time I actually saw a gun. It's been years. (I'm not counting police officers.)

When was the last time any of my fellow Americans saw a gun?

When was the last time any of my fellow Americans saw a gun and it had nothing to do with hunting?

They way your post reads, honestly, you'd think they grow on trees around here.

 

[Booko]

Damn right it would but the fact is that it's calmed down alot where as you're lucky if you go a day without hearing about some sort of shooting in the US!

And it's not a day I don't drive down Buford Hwy. and see more illegal aliens than citizens, but I don't see anyone being too successful on that problem either.

Do me a favor and call George Bush with your brilliant solutions soon, will you?

Obviously we could use your help turning this country into a crime-free paradise like the UK is.

:sarcastic

 

[Booko]

If you don't start pointing fingers to find the source of a problem then you won't find how to fix the problem.

True enough.

The problem is the guy was certifiable and loose and people knew it was a problem, the authorities knew (police and campus admin), but our way of dealing with people with serious mental problems leaves them free to wander about and go buy a gun legally by just LYING on the form about whether they've ever been involuntarily committed.

I'd say that's the first most obvious thing we could look at: Why in tarnation are we depending on the "honor system" to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill? Do we suppose that someone who's mental, who doesn't even get reality himself, is going to be "truthful" on a form? Wow...

Unfortunately it's easier for a few people who apparently have no knowledge of what it's actually like to live here (not you included, btw) to get on a hobby horse about our supposed "gun culture," without being bothered going the next step to talk to us to understand what's it's really like here, because they'd rather make a political statement based upon a picture that's only as real as movies we put out.

Honestly! Those of you who are doing this, do you think you'd appreciate it if we Americans came into YOUR country, totally ignorant of what it's like to live there, and started telling YOU what to do, all without even trying to listen? There are at least two of you here doing that right now. You figure out who you are.

What I hear from people from other countries is that it peeves them no end when Americans go about so arrogantly thinking they know the best way for everyone else to live. Well, heck, I understand that. It's damned offensive.

So do us Americans a favor and don't do the very thing you hate yourself when some of our more idioitic countrymen do it to you.

At the very least, make some attempt to listen, to ask some questions, and figure out what things are like here, and how we actually think.

Most of you are doing that.

The rest of you... Well, anything else I could say would be unprintable, so nevermind.

Cordially,
One Wet Hen

 

[Guitar's Cry]

...are you suggesting that their death would or should bother me?

I actually thought he was more or less suggesting that someone who owns a gun for protection may not be aware of what killing someone is actually like. If I had to, I would kill to protect my loved ones. But the emotional reaction for me would be difficult.

I grew up with guns, and while there are some that use them mainly for target practice (I'm an avid crossbow shooter), let's face it, guns are made to kill. Maybe not always a human, but certainly something (though, perhaps there are guns made for target practice and tranquilizing, I think that considering the OP we are discussing lethal guns).

In short, I think DP had a reasonable point. If you buy a gun for protection, you may someday have to use it, an using it may mean killing someone.

 

[love]

I can't remember the last last time I saw a gun that wasn't on a law enforcement officer. I have never owned a gun in my life. I work in a part of the country where you are more likely to hit a deer than another automobile.I have never seen the need to own a firearm since I am not a hunter though I eat meat. I like to fish but something about taking the life of another mammal hurts my heart. Maybe I am still in Mayberry.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Your ignorance of American culture(s) rears its ugly head once again.

You live so close to us, and understand so little. What a shame.



Do people of good will typically walk into your house uninvited in Canada?

It's news to me.

If all you want to do is more mindless America-bashing, please go start a thread on that.

And then we can all just ignore it and have a real conversation.

My igonrance and many others who live outside America are always feeling to be really blessed for not being involved in American culture.

I am trying to help American to search their soul to find out the roots of their problem. Well if you do not search yourself hard enough, and try to listen to non-American giving their opinion, and just jump into conclusion of ignorance ugly head raising again, and refused to looking at yourself critically, on the point I raised, that is American EGOISM, American will then be on the road of destruction, just like the once all powerful Roman empire, the Persian empire etc.
The British is smarter, and took the downfall of the British empire with grace, and is currently surviving reasonably well by tagging behind America. But as soon as things are bad, the British change their tune. Look at how the British now refuse to tow the line of "war on terror", and also the pulling out of Iraq time table etc, being out of sync with the US. Note also how the British handled the recent incident of sailors being captured by Iran? How quickly they defused the problem, how quickly when they realised they could not win the war of propaganda, they quiet down quickly?

 

[greatcalgarian]

Americans have to realize that possessing guns alone will not result in the current incident, and having gun control also will not eliminate this type of event from happening. Go to the root cause.

Take each of the 'disturbed' individual and find out how did each of them become 'crazy'. Is it your American culture, your American society that breed these type of individuals? Did the same situation happened in other countries in other part of the world? What cause these people to become crazy? Is it the food they eat , is it the education they received? Is it the TV program they have been exposed to? Find the root cause, and then implement the cure. Waste of time discussing gun control.

 

[PureX]

The fact remains that if these "crazy" people didn't have such easy access to deadly weapons, they could not have done nearly so much damage. We don't let children have guns. That's called "gun control", and it's also called common sense. Nor should we let drunks, drug atticts, and lunatics have guns, that's also called "gun control" and it's also common sense. But the gun lobby in America has become so extreme and so irrational that they can't tolerate any form of gun control, and they refuse to even discuss it sensibly.

Obviously, the current methods of controlling guns is not working. And now, once again, more innocent people have been senselessly gunned down. It's long past time to quit bowing to the idiot gun "enthusiasts", and start implementing some real common sense controls on gun sales and ownership in this country.

 

[love]

I don't know how it is in other countries but the movie industry in the U.S.is constantly portraying a culture that has no limits and this is being reflected more and more in our society. Freedom does not mean the right to harm others. Freedom of expression is something we value dearly but we we must balance the things that we hold dear with the things we hold dearer. The minds of our children. I look around and see so much potential for love and knowledge and love of knowledge in the children I see. We need to unplug our televisions and let the life around them teach them.

 

[Booko]

I can't remember the last last time I saw a gun that wasn't on a law enforcement officer. I have never owned a gun in my life. I work in a part of the country where you are more likely to hit a deer than another automobile.I have never seen the need to own a firearm since I am not a hunter though I eat meat. I like to fish but something about taking the life of another mammal hurts my heart. Maybe I am still in Mayberry.

If you see Barney Fife, give him my regards.

Any houses for sale there in Mayberry, Hope? Maybe I can find a job and move there. I could take the change, for sure.

 

[Booko]

...try to listen to non-American giving their opinion, and just jump into conclusion of ignorance ugly head raising again, ...

Opinions are like noses. Everybody has one.

I'd prefer to consider opinions that are informed. That's not egoism. That's just refusing to waste my time on an opinion based on fantasy instead of fact.

If you don't like that, you could always try a different tack and try and find out what it's really like here before you go off on your obnoxious rampage of trying to "fix" us all here.

Physician...heal thyself.

Last I noticed, individual Americans are not the American gov't and do not make policy, nor do we necessarily approve of policies.

Any other conclusions you'd like to jump at right now?

 

[Booko]

I don't know how it is in other countries but the movie industry in the U.S.is constantly portraying a culture that has no limits and this is being reflected more and more in our society. Freedom does not mean the right to harm others. Freedom of expression is something we value dearly but we we must balance the things that we hold dear with the things we hold dearer. The minds of our children. I look around and see so much potential for love and knowledge and love of knowledge in the children I see. We need to unplug our televisions and let the life around them teach them.

I wouldn't care to argue with any of this.

I'm really delighted we're homeschooling Eibhlin now. She's still "decompressing" after being taken out of school, but it's only been a couple of weeks and she's already so much calmer and more level-headed and able to focus on what's really important. And she's had more time than usual to really reflect on...just everything.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

This may or may not belong in this thread about the killings, but I actually feel sorry for the shooter as well as the victims. The tapes he made have been released and you can feel the pain he was in. I cannot imagine the psychological issues a person has to have that drives them not only to kill others but themselves also. Instead of calling them crazy and leaving it at that, why don't people see warning signs and try to do something about them?
One of the professors at the school did notice his unusual behaviour and reported it. He stalked two girls, and burned a dorm room. These are some of the reddest flags ever, and no one took real notice of that. He was calling for help through all of this, before it got to a boiling point for him. I don't excuse the behaviour, bu sane well adjusted people don't do these things.

 

[cardero]

fullyveiled muslimah writes: This may or may not belong in this thread about the killings, but I actually feel sorry for the shooter as well as the victims. The tapes he made have been released and you can feel the pain he was in. I cannot imagine the psychological issues a person has to have that drives them not only to kill others but themselves also.

I was also like Cho. I didn’t go to school to learn the three R’s I endured school to be subjected to the three T’s (Teasing, Tortured and Tormented). Though I understand where the shooter is coming from, I don’t necessarily agree with his methods of dealing with it.

fullyveiled muslimah writes: Instead of calling them crazy and leaving it at that, why don't people see warning signs and try to do something about them?

The writing on the wall has been up since the Columbine shootings. They were teased and bullied as well. In fact, watching the memorial services reminded of the exact same footage I saw back in 1999.

“Yet for learning,
It seems there's a price to pay.
People get hurt.
People get killed.”
-- Dick Foreman DC/Vertigo Black Orchid #8 April 1994

 

[UnityNow101]

Yeah, many people have disdain for the rich snobs and egotystical types that are all too rampant in todays world, but to use that as a reason to kill innocent people is beyond me. I sympathize with many of his feelings about how life is too centered around the amount of money one has. People can get to the point where they snap but it seems like he was quiet and didn't really talk to anyone, even when people tried talking to him.