Virginia Tech school shooting

[cardero]

Pure X writes: We will have more copycat killings because we have not addressed the real problem, and that is how do we keep guns out of the hands of idiots and lunatics.

What keeps surprising me is the mental illness issue that everyone keeps focusing on and bringing up and how disturbed this individual was described and how these symptoms should have been given more attention so that he could have been treated. Who was Cho emulating? Eric and Dylan. Who are Eric and Dylan? Eric and Dylan were two school victims (yes, I said victims!) who had to daily endure a constant barrage of epithets, teasing and bullying from their fellow classmates to the point of where they got tired of accepting it. They were suggesting that Eric and Dylan should have gone the road of psychological treatment to prevent the Columbine “tragedy”. Psychological treatment?!? For what?!?! To learn how to conform? To learn how to be cooler in school? To learn how to take it? To learn how to give it back through non-violent methods and sharper retorts?

We are treating the wrong people!!

If the reports of the years of teasing and bullying at the expense of Cho are to be believed, it is his tormenters that need the psychological evaluation. For those who have never been on the receiving end of one of these tortures, nothing has really changed; this kind of behavior is still sick, demeaning, offensive and unnecessary and it does leave scars. And while we are it, why not drag the parents who are raising these oppressors in for a few psychological sessions, there is a probably a wealth of un-mined diamonds to bring to the surface in that relationship as well. Students go to school to learn, it’s not a popularity contest people!!

 

[PureX]

If the reports of the years of teasing and bullying at the expense of Cho are to be believed, it is his tormenters that need the psychological evaluation. For those who have never been on the receiving end of one of these tortures, nothing has really changed; this kind of behavior is still sick, demeaning, offensive and unnecessary and it does leave scars. And while we are it, why not drag the parents who are raising these oppressors in for a few psychological sessions, there is a probably a wealth of un-mined diamonds to bring to the surface in that relationship as well. Students go to school to learn, it’s not a popularity contest people!!

The fact is that we're not going to be able to do much about the problems you are bringing up. They're complex and very wide-spread. They're built into our genetic codes. In time we'll come to recognize this better, and respond to it a little better, but we're never really going to make it go away.

On the other hand, if Cho, or any other person who has lost all touch with reality (for whatever reason) didn't have access to deadly weapons, he wouldn't have had the ability to do so much harm. Hand guns are incredibly easy to get and to use effectively. And this is what we must stop. This is what we can stop, as opposed to the sociological abuse that you're describing. Don't get me wrong, I think we do need to become aware of this violent and abusive aspect of human nature, and that it's specifically intense among children, and that it can damage an already weakened spirit to the point of breaking them. But ultimately this is going to be a very complicated and difficult and somewhat fruitless endeavor, and in the mean time I think it'd be far easier and effective to separate the "broken ones" from the machines that makes it so easy for them to kill large numbers of people when they snap.

I also think we need to keep in mind that lots of people who have been abused don't "break" and become mass killers, or even want to. There's another component here that we are as yet not knowledgeable about that's probably biochemical in nature, and that results in such a violent explosion as a result of abuse. And this will take some time to identify and treat.

 

[cardero]

The fact is that we're not going to be able to do much about the problems you are bringing up. They're complex and very wide-spread.

The incident you spoke of at Columbine High School involved the segregation and the teasing of these two teenage gunmen because they were different. These individuals were persecuted and belittled. This is not the cause but merely symptoms. Learn to identify the symptoms. You should never look down upon or cast out any individual because of their manners or differences. Some children do not seem to realize the inconsideration of their behavior toward other students. They do not consider the consequences and the demeaning way they treat their fellow students. Schools breed this behavior daily. Popularity is not a reason you go to school. You are there to receive an education and learn to get along with others and to prepare your lives for the responsibilities of adulthood. EveryONE is equal, no matter what his/her background. Teachers, counselors, and faculty members should start identifying this behavior in the students and address these important issues in an informative and LOVING matter before the matter escalates.

HELLO IT'S ME: An Interview With God
Chapter: The Columbine High School Incident
Pg: 184

Nothing complex about that, pretty straight forward if you ask me. The reason it so wide spread? Because nobody is doing anything about it!!!! Kids being kids is not an answer, it is an irresponsible excuse.

To parents, I offer this advice. Start identifying with your children and become involved with their lives in and out of school. If you are a single parent, move mountains to make time for your children. Do not turn a blind eye to their lives or shirk your responsibilities as parents. For some, you are the only important people they recognize in their lives. Set a good example. K(NOW) what is best for them. Get involved with their interests and UNDERSTAND why and who they are.

HELLO IT'S ME: An Interview With God
Chapter: The Columbine High School Incident
Pg: 185

I believe the mandatory undertaking of parents having to attend a professional service for each of their children’s “bullying” offenses will eventually enlighten the family of having to organize their lives to attend these meetings and eventually straighten out the offending problem. This is nothing less than what other institutions do to alchoholics and drug abusers. I do not mean to compare the behavorial disorders of children to substance addicts but the problems seem to be comparably severe and should be expertly addressed.

 

[PureX]

The incident you spoke of at Columbine High School involved the segregation and the teasing of these two teenage gunmen because they were different. These individuals were persecuted and belittled. This is not the cause but merely symptoms. Learn to identify the symptoms. You should never look down upon or cast out any individual because of their manners or differences. Some children do not seem to realize the inconsideration of their behavior toward other students. They do not consider the consequences and the demeaning way they treat their fellow students. Schools breed this behavior daily. Popularity is not a reason you go to school. You are there to receive an education and learn to get along with others and to prepare your lives for the responsibilities of adulthood. EveryONE is equal, no matter what his/her background. Teachers, counselors, and faculty members should start identifying this behavior in the students and address these important issues in an informative and LOVING matter before the matter escalates.

HELLO IT'S ME: An Interview With God
Chapter: The Columbine High School Incident
Pg: 184

Nothing complex about that, pretty straight forward if you ask me. The reason it so wide spread? Because nobody is doing anything about it!!!! Kids being kids is not an answer, it is an irresponsible excuse.

It's human animals doing what human animals do.

Human animals live in groups, and like most animals that live in groups we establish orders of dominance and then struggle to maintain them. The establishment of these orders of dominance usually begins when the members are still quite young, and once established, each member will try to hold on to their position of power relative to whichever other members are subservient to them, or to advance to a higher position if that's possible. And it's inevitable that a few members will end up being at the bottom, and being dominated by everyone. In some animal groups, these weakest one are even killed by one or more of the dominant members.

Human beings have evolved to the point at which we could recognize that this sort of behavior is ingrained in our genetic codes, but deny acting on these inclinations if we so chose. But as yet, we have not really done so. Or we do so but in a haphazard and inconsistent manner. And the result is that much of what happens in our school yards is an expression of this natural establishment of animal dominance and submission. If we don't teach our kids that they are animals, as well as human beings, they aren't going to be able to recognize such animal inclinations within themselves, and so be able to choose to deny acting on them.

In fact there are still a great number of human adults that don't recognize their own animal natures, either. And they can't teach their children what they don't know, themselves. It's for this reason that such bullying as you describe still happens, and why it's a far more difficult problem to deal with than you might think. After all, sex is also an animal inclination built into our genetic codes, and just think about how enormously difficult that inclination is to deny or control.

To parents, I offer this advice. Start identifying with your children and become involved with their lives in and out of school. If you are a single parent, move mountains to make time for your children. Do not turn a blind eye to their lives or shirk your responsibilities as parents. For some, you are the only important people they recognize in their lives. Set a good example. K(NOW) what is best for them. Get involved with their interests and UNDERSTAND why and who they are.

HELLO IT'S ME: An Interview With God
Chapter: The Columbine High School Incident
Pg: 185

I believe the mandatory undertaking of parents having to attend a professional service for each of their children’s “bullying” offenses will eventually enlighten the family of having to organize their lives to attend these meetings and eventually straighten out the offending problem. This is nothing less than what other institutions do to alcoholics and drug abusers. I do not mean to compare the behavioral disorders of children to substance addicts but the problems seem to be comparably severe and should be expertly addressed.

But first, you'll have to convince a lot of adults that bullying is really a problem, and not just the natural way that kids, or all human beings for that matter, behave. Because in a way, they're right. It is a natural way for us to behave. So the question is: do we wish, and are we willing to transcend our animal natures and become more fully "divine" human beings.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Interestingly enough, tougher gun laws probably would have stopped this particular nut from getting guns. For one thing, if people could only get guns from a "black market", a lot of people wouldn't know how to negociate that market. And for another thing, guns that could only be gotten on a black market will cost a lot more than the average college kid could afford.

The average college kid can afford designer clothes, cell phone, laptop computer and a digital camera. All that could be traded for a black market gun. If you are going to kill yourself, your possessions would easily add up to enough for a black market gun.

And besides this, using your logic, we may as well legalize drugs, tanks, missiles, pornography, and anything else that we currently try to "control" with laws. Because by your reasoning, laws just lead to black markets, and have no effct at all on the community's behavior, because the "good" people don't do bad things, anyway, and the "bad" people will just do as they please regardless.
So are you suggesting that we make all drugs legal?

What I am suggesting is that if a certain strategy has failed before, what are the chances of a different result this time? Why can you see this so clearly in Iraq and not in your own country? I want kid's safe, and more laws are not the answer.

But most of the people who are killed by guns are not killed by crazy gun-toting strangers, like this guy in the news, or by hardened criminals. The vast majority of people killed by gun violence in America knew the people who killed them, and in fact were probably even related or married to them. The vast majority of people killed by guns are not killed by criminals, they are killed by friends and family members who are drunk, drugged up, in a rage, or otherwise emotionally despondant. And if they didn't have such easy access to a gun in that moment of emotional crisis, it's very likely that the crimes they committed would never have happened. They simply would have sobered up, and forgot about it.
Why are you assuming that the only possible method of gun control must be a total banning of guns, and "gun free zones"?
We will have more copycat killings because we have not addressed the real problem, and that is how do we keep guns out of the hands of idiots and lunatics.
That's easy to see while sitting on your couch at home.

While you make an excellent point that I am sitting at my desk at the current time, I am a Gulf War veteran. I also worked in Kuwait for private contractors after the war. Security was paramount. I will say this again, this is not a gun issue, it is a lack of security issue. This is not a hindsight 20-20 thing either. People of Virginia tried to pass measures to let CCW permit holders to carry on campus and it was tabled.

A good example is Pilots are allowed to carry guns on airplanes. A better security measure was more secure doors to the cockpits. If colleges had the ability to lock class room doors from the inside, many more students would be alive right now.

I don't want to see everyone on campus carrying a gun, but I would like to see someone on campus being prepared to respond in each building. Fences, ID badges, metal detectors, door lock systems and a few highly trained plain clothed armed responders would improve the security of our countries greatest asset, our children.

 

[Reverend Rick]

While no security system is perfect. If there were camera's outside the dormitory, perhaps we could have identified the shooter and we could have stopped this individual from returning to the campus and shooting all these people.

 

[PureX]

Rev Rick,

We actually agree on this more than you might think.

I certainly agree that the half-***ed laws that we have now are not working. I also agree that a total ban on guns will not work and is not really legal, anyway. I certainly do not agree with removing all restrictions of buying guns, though. That's just nuts.

What we need are laws that work. Not more laws or no laws. And I think that we need to clearly understand the goal of the laws we write, first, so that when we do write them, they'll have some chance of achieving that goal. And I believe the logical goal of gun control is to keep the guns out of the hands of drunks, drug attics, hotheads, wife-beaters, road-ragers, psychotics, and convicted criminals. And the second goal of gun control is to allow and perhaps even encourage those responsible, stable, sober and honest citizens among to own guns, and to even carry them if they can show that they know when, why, and how to use them properly.

To this end, I would propose that any adult citizen have the right to own a gun, BUT ... they will have to show that they have the ability to take on that responsibility by taking and passing a tough firearms coarse, similar to what the police do. And one of the main aims of this course would be to weed out the folks who should not be allowed to have a gun.

Then to go along with this, we would need to write some very tough laws against those who get caught with an illegal firearm. I think some mandatory prison time would make sense ... you want to act like a criminal, and keep illegal weapons around, then we'll see to it that you're treated like one. And if you're caught with a gun in the commission of a crime, we double the usual sentence.

Lastly, I think we need to begin prevailing upon the purveyors of culture in this country to begin acting more responsibly. I'm not sure how we do this, as I think it would be illegal to try and force them to do so, but there must be some way we can use the power of commerce or something to put pressure on them to stop glorifying violence as the solution to all human problems, as they currently do.

 

[lilithu]

He wasn't calling for help. Calling for help requires actually seeking it. There are all sorts of things he could've done if that were the case. Instead he spent a lot of time preparing to kill others and constructing that pathetic self-aggrandising manifesto of his.

Some people don't know how to seek help.

I feel sorry that he was in such pain but to have done what he did is so ugly.

Yes, it was.

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

The fact is that we're not going to be able to do much about the problems you are bringing up. They're complex and very wide-spread. They're built into our genetic codes. In time we'll come to recognize this better, and respond to it a little better, but we're never really going to make it go away.

I disagree with that all the way around. It's called home-training, and a persons parents give it to them. Even if we can't totally get rid of it we can go a long way in preventing such actions. If parents teach their children young about the rights and feelings of others, they will continue in that manner. Now every now and again they might engage in some questionable behaviour behind a parents back, due to peer pressure, but they will always have a sense that it is wrong. When a person feels ashamed of their own actions and know them to be wrong, they are more likely to reform themselves. It is the children who are never truly taught these vital life-lessons that tease and belittle others as children, and grow into adults that do the same thing. Only it gets worse as they get older.

A little kid will absorb any type of teaching you give them, whether it's good or bad, such is the nature of children. If one starts with a young child to teach them good and how to be of the best character among others, how to have respect, and to discipline themselves, they will take to that. It must also be reiterated at all times for them to truly understand the gravity of bullying others, disgracing and humiliating other people. Not just telling them in passing that it is wrong, but sternly let them know that the behaviour is completely unacceptable. The little child will grow into and older child, then into an adult that knows it is wrong to verbally abuse people. They will teach their children this lesson and thus start a cycle of generations of respectable people. If we spread good then good will spread, but if we spread bad then bad will spread.

It all starts at home. When you have to learn life's lesson's on the fly, they tend to be a lot harsher then they would have been had your parents taught it, or had you listened to them when they were trying to tell you.

 

[Quiddity]

I disagree with that all the way around. It's called home-training, and a persons parents give it to them. Even if we can't totally get rid of it we can go a long way in preventing such actions. If parents teach their children young about the rights and feelings of others, they will continue in that manner. Now every now and again they might engage in some questionable behaviour behind a parents back, due to peer pressure, but they will always have a sense that it is wrong. When a person feels ashamed of their own actions and know them to be wrong, they are more likely to reform themselves. It is the children who are never truly taught these vital life-lessons that tease and belittle others as children, and grow into adults that do the same thing. Only it gets worse as they get older.

A little kid will absorb any type of teaching you give them, whether it's good or bad, such is the nature of children. If one starts with a young child to teach them good and how to be of the best character among others, how to have respect, and to discipline themselves, they will take to that. It must also be reiterated at all times for them to truly understand the gravity of bullying others, disgracing and humiliating other people. Not just telling them in passing that it is wrong, but sternly let them know that the behaviour is completely unacceptable. The little child will grow into and older child, then into an adult that knows it is wrong to verbally abuse people. They will teach their children this lesson and thus start a cycle of generations of respectable people. If we spread good then good will spread, but if we spread bad then bad will spread.

It all starts at home. When you have to learn life's lesson's on the fly, they tend to be a lot harsher then they would have been had your parents taught it, or had you listened to them when they were trying to tell you.

Educating kids at home!.....brilliant!

 

[greatcalgarian]

Anyone has any statistics of Campus killing outside USA? Is this phenomenon particularly serious in USA? If so, what is the cause?

By tracing carefully the causes, be it a social problem, culture problem, home education problem, public education problem, there has to be the difference between the USA and other countries. Finding that out will then provide the solution for it.

 

[lilithu]

I disagree with that all the way around. It's called home-training, and a persons parents give it to them. Even if we can't totally get rid of it we can go a long way in preventing such actions.

I don't disagree with what you've said FVM. But I do think that sometimes these things are unavoidable.

From what I've read, there was something organically wrong from the beginning. Family members report him being distant and unable to respond to hugs and communication even when he was a little kid. If so, the parents could have tried to teach discipline and empathy diligently and it wouldn't have made much difference.

In fact, Cho's older sister is your typical (in terms of Asian stereotypes) over-achiever - Princeton graduate, honors, etc. I don't think that the parents were negligent.

I think that the combination of biology, and an ethnic culture that still tries to ignore mental illness as a character flaw, and the family's inability to adapt, and American society where people can be brutal to anyone who's different... and Cho himself (I don't discount personal responsibility) all contributed to this, but it would be unfair to put the blame entirely on any one of them.

It makes us feel better when we have someone to blame, but sometimes it's a confluence of events.

 

[Sunstone]

I don't disagree with what you've said FVM. But I do think that sometimes these things are unavoidable.

From what I've read, there was something organically wrong from the beginning. Family members report him being distant and unable to respond to hugs and communication even when he was a little kid. If so, the parents could have tried to teach discipline and empathy diligently and it wouldn't have made much difference.

In fact, Cho's older sister is your typical (in terms of Asian stereotypes) over-achiever - Princeton graduate, honors, etc. I don't think that the parents were negligent.

I think that the combination of biology, and an ethnic culture that still tries to ignore mental illness as a character flaw, and the family's inability to adapt, and American society where people can be brutal to anyone who's different... and Cho himself (I don't discount personal responsibility) all contributed to this, but it would be unfair to put the blame entirely on any one of them.

It makes us feel better when we have someone to blame, but sometimes it's a confluence of events.

A confluence of events? I think so too. The causes of human behavior are extremely complex. This might have been something like a "perfect storm" in which a number of factors came together in just the right way to cause the tragedy. At the very least, I don't think only one or two causes were involved. I think it was a whole host of causes.

 

[UnityNow101]

One good thing for all you video game players out there. We can rule out video games as helping to cause and create his unexplainable behavior:

http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/va_tech_shooter_played_no_games.htm

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

Anyone has any statistics of Campus killing outside USA? Is this phenomenon particularly serious in USA? If so, what is the cause?
By tracing carefully the causes, be it a social problem, culture problem, home education problem, public education problem, there has to be the difference between the USA and other countries. Finding that out will then provide the solution for it.

I wouldn't limit it just to campus killings but gun violence overall I'm not sure about what has been done recently in the U.K. concerning gun laws but there has been a drastic rise in handgun crime there for a number of years despite bans on them, it's only a matter of time before they catch up with us and it proves the point that no matter how many laws are enacted the "bad guys" will always get guns and will use them. I don't relish seeing a world where the only people who have guns are the military, the police, the bad guys and of course, the wealthy. You might laugh at the last one but the wealthy have been able to sidestep a lot of laws because of their wealth, I would say if they wanted guns they would have them and no-one would do anything about it, especially if large political contributions were paid. So where would we be at at that point? back to the middle ages where only the government officials, "bad" guys and the landed elite would be able to have firearms. You peasants should just grin and bear it because you are not responsible or intelligent enough to have them, bow to your enlightened and protective masters- does this sound familiar?

For those that live in the U.K. and have seen a rise in gun violence over the years in your countries despite harsh bans on the private legal ownership of them, I'd say get your city council together and send your politicians one of those ribbons or trophies that say "I Tried".

 

[greatcalgarian]

I wouldn't limit it just to campus killings but gun violence overall I'm not sure about what has been done recently in the U.K. concerning gun laws but there has been a drastic rise in handgun crime there for a number of years despite bans on them, it's only a matter of time before they catch up with us and it proves the point that no matter how many laws are enacted the "bad guys" will always get guns and will use them. I don't relish seeing a world where the only people who have guns are the military, the police, the bad guys and of course, the wealthy. You might laugh at the last one but the wealthy have been able to sidestep a lot of laws because of their wealth, I would say if they wanted guns they would have them and no-one would do anything about it, especially if large political contributions were paid. So where would we be at at that point? back to the middle ages where only the government officials, "bad" guys and the landed elite would be able to have firearms. You peasants should just grin and bear it because you are not responsible or intelligent enough to have them, bow to your enlightened and protective masters- does this sound familiar?

For those that live in the U.K. and have seen a rise in gun violence over the years in your countries despite harsh bans on the private legal ownership of them, I'd say get your city council together and send your politicians one of those ribbons or trophies that say "I Tried".

Education is the only solution to the problem of crimes and violence. Proper education at school and at home, to bring up the young to learn right and wrong, to love and not to hate, proper civic lessons, proper teaching of the virtue of being humble, being honest, not to look for personal glorification, not to look for self importance etc. These type of approach is basically completely missing in western culture and education. Christianity did not teach that. Only the eastern culture that adapted the buddism and blended in with confusian teaching, and practice by the east, where emphasis is placed on family love, community love, help the poor etc that will bring peace to the world. Definitely not the American capitalistic way of life philosophy which will only breed human greed and selfishness.

 

[Jistyr]

The shooting at Virginia Tech was terrible, but I find it hard to still put so much focus on it. I do not mean to be heartless, but after the 32 people died in Virginia Tech, just a few days later, almost 200 people died in Baghdad. It killed 191 and wounded 250. 191 deaths is about 6 times worse than 32.

My point is that something much more horrifying happened in Baghdad in the same week but it only made headlines for one day and then disappeared. I assume that most people who have heard of the Virginia Tech massacre have no idea that so many more people died abruptly after. People are still talking about the Virginia Tech shooting, and this is mostly because as a nation, sadly, we pretty much only care about internal problems. We know so much about what happened at Virginia Tech, we can find out how many bullets were fired, but it hasn't been fully identified who has caused the deaths of almost 200.

We as people should grief for the losses at Virginia Tech, but we must also find it within ourselves to focus on bigger international problems despite the bias media has to cover only what happens within the United States.

 

[azza]

The shooting at Virginia Tech was terrible, but I find it hard to still put so much focus on it. I do not mean to be heartless, but after the 32 people died in Virginia Tech, just a few days later, almost 200 people died in Baghdad. It killed 191 and wounded 250. 191 deaths is about 6 times worse than 32.

My point is that something much more horrifying happened in Baghdad in the same week but it only made headlines for one day and then disappeared. I assume that most people who have heard of the Virginia Tech massacre have no idea that so many more people died abruptly after. People are still talking about the Virginia Tech shooting, and this is mostly because as a nation, sadly, we pretty much only care about internal problems. We know so much about what happened at Virginia Tech, we can find out how many bullets were fired, but it hasn't been fully identified who has caused the deaths of almost 200.

We as people should grief for the losses at Virginia Tech, but we must also find it within ourselves to focus on bigger international problems despite the bias media has to cover only what happens within the United States.

It's not that no one cares. It's just all relative. 200 people killed is probably a quiet day in Iraq so it's not news. If you had mass shootings in the US everyday after a while they would only be in the news for 5 mins too.