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Vivat Imperium Romanum!
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
Viker
Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Beats NASCAR.So, will chariot races come back?
Catholics have doctrine but this is made more complex. Marriage is and always will be forbidden, but love between two same sex people, esp. monogamous, is seen with a kind of understanding, even if it is sinful. I suppose one won't understand if one is not part of that culture. Homosexual union is viewed sympathetically in Europe, by Christians and non-Christians. The German Synod, while divisive, is characteristic of this. We are not the US and should not be compared but contrasted,
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It is indeed hard for me to see how same-sex marriage could be said to be based in Christianity when almost all major churches formally designate same-sex relationships as sinful and refuse to support same-sex marriage. What you said sounds to me like a situation where same-sex marriage is legalized because of separation of religion and state—especially religion that deems homosexual relationships sinful—not because of Christianity.
I don't want to turn this thread into a full-blown debate, though, so I'll have to stop here even though discussing this with you is interesting.
They made marriage the benchmark, not us. Marriage is a privilege not even reserved for all heterosexuals, let alone homosexuals. Not everyone has the same rights, but now unless everyone has exactly the same people are upset.It is indeed hard for me to see how same-sex marriage could be said to be based in Christianity when almost all major churches formally designate same-sex relationships as sinful and refuse to support same-sex marriage. What you said sounds to me like a situation where same-sex marriage is legalized because of separation of religion and state—especially religion that deems homosexual relationships sinful—not because of Christianity.
I don't want to turn this thread into a full-blown debate, though, so I'll have to stop here even though discussing this with you is interesting.
Odin and Bragi approve.
I'm definitely among the camp who believe that all should have equal rights and that the legal right to marriage is not a privilege. I see no convincing argument to justify different treatment in that respect.
I may PM you to continue this discussion and avoid a debate here, because your perspective fascinates me and also makes me think more about my own. I always enjoy that.
I have some thoughts on this DS
To my mind, the dichotomy you are drawing here is too 'black-and-white'. There's an implicit assumption that 'liberal' values are derived from assumptions other than the seedbed of medieval and early modern Christian ethics and canon law principles. Not to get into a debate on a discussion thread but historiography and evolutionary psychology does not back that contention up.
The concept of marriage as a union based upon consensual love, individual romantic choice of partner and mutual self-giving, which was first equalised secularly by opening up to homosexual persons in the Netherlands in 2001, is itself I would say a product of high medieval Catholic theology.
Modern Western “companionate” marriage is diametrically opposed to the earlier form of marriage, an affectionless alliance that primarily served familial and practical ends:
Can Church Influence Explain Western Individualism? Comment on “The Church, Intensive Kinship, and Global Psychological Variation,” by Jonathan F. Schulz et al. – The Occidental Observer
[Medieval] Church policies directed against the power of secular elites focused on marriage as an essential battleground, including, besides rules on incestuous marriage, developing ideologies and enforcing social controls supporting monogamy, preventing divorce. Particularly important was enforcing consent as the basis of marriage (not considered by Schulz et al.). Consent in marriage promotes individualist marriage choice based on the characteristics of spouse rather than family strategizing in which one’s spouse is determined by parents, with the result that “the family, the tribe, the clan, were subordinated to the individual. If one wanted to marry enough, one could choose one’s own mate and the Church would vindicate one’s choice.[15]
The Church also developed ideologies of moral egalitarianism and moral universalism that undermined the ideology of natural hierarchy typical of the ancient world, and often encouraged the emerging cities as independent power centers opposed to the interests of feudal lords. Regarding the ideology of moral egalitarianism:
The Church also developed ideologies of moral egalitarianism and moral universalism that undermined the ideology of natural hierarchy typical of the ancient world, and often encouraged the emerging cities as independent power centers opposed to the interests of feudal lords. Regarding the ideology of moral egalitarianism:
Canon law … had a strongly egalitarian tenor—status, which had been central to ancient law—was irrelevant. Ecclesiastical ideology thus facilitated the Western liberal tradition. Aristocrats and commoners had the same moral standing. Moreover, canon law was recruited to lessen the power of kinship groups by also rejecting the privileged status of testimony from family and friends (which had led to more powerful families getting favorable judgments). [From Chapter 5, 188; emphasis in original]
I think there's something telling about the fact that gay marriage in 2022 is legal in only 33 of the world's 195 sovereign countries:
- Andorra*
- Argentina
- Australia
- Austria
- Belgium
- Brazil
- Canada
- Chile
- Colombia
- Costa Rica
- Cuba
- Denmark
- Ecuador
- Finland
- France
- Germany
- Iceland
- Ireland
- Luxembourg
- Malta
- Mexico*
- Netherlands1
- New Zealand2
- Norway
- Portugal
- Slovenia
- South Africa
- Spain
- Sweden
- Switzerland
- Taiwan
- United Kingdom
- United States
- Uruguay
With the exception of Taiwan (many of its founding political figures in the Kuomintang having been devoutly Christian, notwithstanding), all of these countries are Christian by cultural heritage. Quite a number of them - such as Malta, Mexico, Brazil, Colombia, Chile and Slovenia - are highly religious, predominantly Catholic societies with very high rates of belief in God.
Read:
https://twitter.com/holland_tom/status/1251525218411167746?lang=en-GB
Krafft-Ebing believed that "romantic love & privacy" were bred of Christianity - and came to believe as well that the category of person he classed as 'homosexual' could share in them just as conventionally married couples did
Which is why same-sex marriage is pretty much exclusive to Christian majority countries. It's not a repudiation of Christianity, but an evolutionary expression of it.
Which is why same-sex marriage is pretty much exclusive to Christian majority countries. It's not a repudiation of Christianity, but an evolutionary expression of it.
Homosexuality's Christian roots
The list of countries that license same-sex marriage is a highly distinctive one. All of them, with the sole exception of Taiwan, are culturally Christian.
The temptation, then, might be to cast the legalisation of same-sex marriage across much of the West as a decisive repudiation of Christian assumptions. If countries like Sweden or Canada have blazed a trail yet to be followed by countries like Iran or India, then that, so the presumption goes, is simply because the decline of religion has further to go in the non-Western world. How long, though, can its ultimate collapse be put off? Reason, progress and tolerance, it might be hoped, cannot forever be bucked. Surely, then, given time, we shall see bearded couples cutting wedding cake in Qom?
What, though, if the prevalence of same-sex marriage in culturally Christian countries is due less to the repudiation of Christian assumptions, and more to their enduring influence? What if it is in truth a bloom with roots deep in a very particular seed-bed? Even in the bedroom, after all, we are shaped by the past. Much that we take for granted is relative, and much that we assume to be “human nature” is in truth the result of decades, centuries, millennia worth of cultural weathering.
(continued...)The temptation, then, might be to cast the legalisation of same-sex marriage across much of the West as a decisive repudiation of Christian assumptions. If countries like Sweden or Canada have blazed a trail yet to be followed by countries like Iran or India, then that, so the presumption goes, is simply because the decline of religion has further to go in the non-Western world. How long, though, can its ultimate collapse be put off? Reason, progress and tolerance, it might be hoped, cannot forever be bucked. Surely, then, given time, we shall see bearded couples cutting wedding cake in Qom?
What, though, if the prevalence of same-sex marriage in culturally Christian countries is due less to the repudiation of Christian assumptions, and more to their enduring influence? What if it is in truth a bloom with roots deep in a very particular seed-bed? Even in the bedroom, after all, we are shaped by the past. Much that we take for granted is relative, and much that we assume to be “human nature” is in truth the result of decades, centuries, millennia worth of cultural weathering.
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Consider Malta:
A Brief Guide To The Main Religious Beliefs In Malta - Expat Focus
State religion in Malta is Catholicism, highly religiously observant and believing society - only tiny insignificant non-believing population. According to a 2018 survey, the overwhelming majority of the Maltese population adheres to Christianity (95.2%) with Catholicism as the main denomination (93.9%). Article 2 of the Constitution of Malta states that the religion of Malta is the "Roman Catholic apostolic religion" (paragraph 1), that the authorities of the Catholic Church have the duty and the right to teach which principles are right and wrong (paragraph 2) and that religious teaching of the Catholic apostolic faith shall be provided in all state schools as part of compulsory education (paragraph 3).
Now, what's the cultural and legal attitude to homosexuality in this most Catholic of countries?
Malta for LGBT: The Ultimate Guide
LGBT rights in Malta - Wikipedia
Malta is not a secular state. The state religion is Roman Catholicism.
You will notice that a number of non-Christian/Western countries (those that do not have a heritage derived from Latin Christianity) but which are officially or predominantly atheist, such as the Peoples Republic of China, Vietnam and Japan (Vietnam (81% agnostic/atheist) and Japan (64-65% agnostic/atheist)) have not legalized gay marriage. Japan is even a highly liberal democratic state:
Japan court upholds ban on same-sex marriage but raises rights issue
They Said What!? Pathological Anti-LGBT Prejudice Reigns in Japan’s Ruling Party
This is due to the fact that despite being secular countries - indeed in the case of China and Vietnam, state atheism under forms of Marxism-Leninism - these are not Western states that owe their cultural origins to the influence of the medieval Catholic Church and its ofshoot, Protestantism.
Sociologists and evolutionary psychologists recognise the importance of this, in a phenomenon known by the acronym "WEIRD":
How the Catholic Church Made Westerners the WEIRDest People in the World - Public Discourse
A Brief Guide To The Main Religious Beliefs In Malta - Expat Focus
Malta is one of the few remaining countries in the world where Roman Catholicism is the state religion. Roman Catholicism has in fact been the predominant religion in the country for a long time, and today an estimated 98% of the population is Catholic.
Religion still plays a major role in both public and private life. In Malta the overwhelming majority of the population is either religious or spiritual, with only a 2% minority professing no belief in a god, spirit, or life force, according to a 2005 poll.
Religion still plays a major role in both public and private life. In Malta the overwhelming majority of the population is either religious or spiritual, with only a 2% minority professing no belief in a god, spirit, or life force, according to a 2005 poll.
State religion in Malta is Catholicism, highly religiously observant and believing society - only tiny insignificant non-believing population. According to a 2018 survey, the overwhelming majority of the Maltese population adheres to Christianity (95.2%) with Catholicism as the main denomination (93.9%). Article 2 of the Constitution of Malta states that the religion of Malta is the "Roman Catholic apostolic religion" (paragraph 1), that the authorities of the Catholic Church have the duty and the right to teach which principles are right and wrong (paragraph 2) and that religious teaching of the Catholic apostolic faith shall be provided in all state schools as part of compulsory education (paragraph 3).
Now, what's the cultural and legal attitude to homosexuality in this most Catholic of countries?
Malta for LGBT: The Ultimate Guide
According to ILGA-Europe (International Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans and Intersex Association), an international independent organization championing the interests and rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, and intersex people in Europe, Malta ranks as the number 1 country in the Rainbow Index. Malta for LGBT people is therefore one of the most equal playing fields in Europe.
Malta has been recognized as the first country in Europe to prohibit conversion therapy – a pseudoscientific practice aimed at changing a person’s sexual orientation and gender identity. In addition to this, the Government in Malta has also altered the language generally used to address domestic or family relationships in legal records to make them more gender-neutral terms. Efforts like these have set a very high standard with regard to LGBT rights across the globe.
Malta has been recognized as the first country in Europe to prohibit conversion therapy – a pseudoscientific practice aimed at changing a person’s sexual orientation and gender identity. In addition to this, the Government in Malta has also altered the language generally used to address domestic or family relationships in legal records to make them more gender-neutral terms. Efforts like these have set a very high standard with regard to LGBT rights across the globe.
LGBT rights in Malta - Wikipedia
Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) rights in Malta are of the highest standards, even by comparison to other European countries.[1][2]
According to the Overseas Security Advisory Council (OSAC), Malta has been recognised for providing a high degree of liberty to its LGBT citizens.[3] Since October 2015, ILGA-Europe has ranked Malta 1st in terms of LGBT rights legislation out of 49 observed European countries, a ranking it has upheld ever since, as of 2021.[4][5] Malta is one of the few countries in the world to have made LGBT rights equal at a constitutional level.[6][7] In 2016, Malta became the first country in the European Union to ban conversion therapy.[8][9] In late 2020, Malta joined the UN LGBTI Core Group, an international platform for the protection of LGBT people from violence and discrimination.[10]
Out magazine has declared Malta as being among the best European countries in terms of LGBT rights.[11]
Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity and expression has been banned nationwide since 2004. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people have been allowed to serve openly in the military since 2002. Transgender and intersex rights in Malta are of the highest standard in the world under the Gender Identity, Gender Expression And Sex Characteristics Act, which permits transgender people to change their legal gender without medical interventions and bans surgeries on intersex infants.[15]
In April 2014, Malta became the first European state to add gender identity to its Constitution as a protected category.[93] In September 2022, the prime minister of Malta made an announcement that sexual reassignment surgery will be free.
According to the Overseas Security Advisory Council (OSAC), Malta has been recognised for providing a high degree of liberty to its LGBT citizens.[3] Since October 2015, ILGA-Europe has ranked Malta 1st in terms of LGBT rights legislation out of 49 observed European countries, a ranking it has upheld ever since, as of 2021.[4][5] Malta is one of the few countries in the world to have made LGBT rights equal at a constitutional level.[6][7] In 2016, Malta became the first country in the European Union to ban conversion therapy.[8][9] In late 2020, Malta joined the UN LGBTI Core Group, an international platform for the protection of LGBT people from violence and discrimination.[10]
Out magazine has declared Malta as being among the best European countries in terms of LGBT rights.[11]
Discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity and expression has been banned nationwide since 2004. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people have been allowed to serve openly in the military since 2002. Transgender and intersex rights in Malta are of the highest standard in the world under the Gender Identity, Gender Expression And Sex Characteristics Act, which permits transgender people to change their legal gender without medical interventions and bans surgeries on intersex infants.[15]
In April 2014, Malta became the first European state to add gender identity to its Constitution as a protected category.[93] In September 2022, the prime minister of Malta made an announcement that sexual reassignment surgery will be free.
Malta is not a secular state. The state religion is Roman Catholicism.
You will notice that a number of non-Christian/Western countries (those that do not have a heritage derived from Latin Christianity) but which are officially or predominantly atheist, such as the Peoples Republic of China, Vietnam and Japan (Vietnam (81% agnostic/atheist) and Japan (64-65% agnostic/atheist)) have not legalized gay marriage. Japan is even a highly liberal democratic state:
Japan court upholds ban on same-sex marriage but raises rights issue
Currently, Japan's constitution says that marriage is defined by the mutual consent of both sexes.
The definition has real-world consequences for same-sex couples. They are not allowed to inherit each other's assets and are denied parental rights to each other's children. Even hospital visits can be difficult.
The definition has real-world consequences for same-sex couples. They are not allowed to inherit each other's assets and are denied parental rights to each other's children. Even hospital visits can be difficult.
They Said What!? Pathological Anti-LGBT Prejudice Reigns in Japan’s Ruling Party
This is due to the fact that despite being secular countries - indeed in the case of China and Vietnam, state atheism under forms of Marxism-Leninism - these are not Western states that owe their cultural origins to the influence of the medieval Catholic Church and its ofshoot, Protestantism.
Sociologists and evolutionary psychologists recognise the importance of this, in a phenomenon known by the acronym "WEIRD":
How the Catholic Church Made Westerners the WEIRDest People in the World - Public Discourse
People from Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic (WEIRD) cultures differ vastly in psychology from people from non-WEIRD cultures. Thanks to the Catholic Church’s teaching on marriage and family, WEIRD psychology eventually gave rise to free markets, inalienable rights, and democracy.
How did the modern world emerge? In his 2020 book, The WEIRDest People in the World: How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous, Harvard University Professor of Human Evolutionary Biology Joseph Henrich says the credit (or blame) falls to the Catholic Church’s teachings on marriage and family. People from Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic (WEIRD) cultures differ vastly in psychology from people from non-WEIRD cultures in terms of individualism, time, thrift, hard work, adherence to impartial principles, and analytical thinking.
How did the modern world emerge? In his 2020 book, The WEIRDest People in the World: How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous, Harvard University Professor of Human Evolutionary Biology Joseph Henrich says the credit (or blame) falls to the Catholic Church’s teachings on marriage and family. People from Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic (WEIRD) cultures differ vastly in psychology from people from non-WEIRD cultures in terms of individualism, time, thrift, hard work, adherence to impartial principles, and analytical thinking.
The Church’s marriage and family program led to greater impersonal honesty and a universal morality. Long before the Enlightenment, the Church’s marriage and family program led to representative governments, universities, and social safety nets. The Church dissolved intensive kinship through its marriage and family program, and thereby shifted people’s psychology to be open to political pluralism, free markets, individual rights, and modern democracy.
These changes in the psychology of populations were further extended by Martin Luther and the Protestant principle of sola scriptura. Luther encouraged secular rules to establish schools where boys and girls could learn to read the Bible. Unlike prior cultures in which no more than 10 percent of people could read, literacy rates soared in the Germany of the Protestant Reformation.
These changes in the psychology of populations were further extended by Martin Luther and the Protestant principle of sola scriptura. Luther encouraged secular rules to establish schools where boys and girls could learn to read the Bible. Unlike prior cultures in which no more than 10 percent of people could read, literacy rates soared in the Germany of the Protestant Reformation.
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Secret Chief
Degrow!
It wants to respond to modernity I think, but it's not in a rush.
"The law prevents ministers of the Church of England from carrying out same-sex marriages. And although there are no authorised services for blessing a same-sex civil marriage, your local church can still support you with prayer."
Cheers. No wonder churches are empty.
- Information for same sex couples | The Church of England
Pre+christian rome does not offend me. Tolerance for all religion was the norm. Attempting to impose one religion on politics does.
Sedim Haba
Outa here... bye-bye!
So, will chariot races come back?
Plus the colosseum & gladiators, and let's not forget feeding people to the lions.
Any guess who first? Ya, you know who. Recent history makes that clear enough..
Attachments
exchemist
Veteran Member
But surely, barbarorum is the genitive plural, "of the barbarians"? (from barbarus, 2nd declension). If you are addressing readers, surely it should be the vocative plural: barbari (or barbarae for the girls), shouldn't it?This my flag.
I am a Roman Citizen.
My main dream in life is the resurrection of the SPQR under an Augustus.
Long live the EU!
We need to bring back Latin in place of barbarous languages like English.
Btw you pronounce vivat with a w, barbarorum.
And Im not sure where the EU fits in with this. Geographically a better parallel would be the Carolingian empire, centred on Aix-la-Chapelle/Aachen. (By the way, I see the word Aix is derived from the Latin for "by the waters", aquis: Aix-la-Chapelle — Wikipédia )
And of course the EU is an organisation of voluntary membership, established by treaty, and with outside nations clamouring to join it. The Roman empire? Not so much...........
Non me, abeo!
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
Hmm, so since I'm there in a Time Machine, it doesn't matter if I do petty crime in Rome, since I can warp out later and no one will ever know.
*Walks out into the open and says, "I am better than the Emperor"*
*Gets the death penalty*
Whoops...
*Walks out into the open and says, "I am better than the Emperor"*
*Gets the death penalty*
Whoops...
I actually wanted to write barbaroi, in Greek.....But surely, barbarorum is the genitive plural, "of the barbarians"? (from barbarus, 2nd declension). If you are addressing readers, surely it should be the vocative plural: barbari (or barbarae for the girls), shouldn't it?
And Im not sure where the EU fits in with this. Geographically a better parallel would be the Carolingian empire, centred on Aix-la-Chapelle/Aachen. (By the way, I see the word Aix is derived from the Latin for "by the waters", aquis: Aix-la-Chapelle — Wikipédia )
And of course the EU is an organisation of voluntary membership, established by treaty, and with outside nations clamouring to join it. The Roman empire? Not so much...........
But surely, barbarorum is the genitive plural, "of the barbarians"? (from barbarus, 2nd declension). If you are addressing readers, surely it should be the vocative plural: barbari (or barbarae for the girls), shouldn't it?
And Im not sure where the EU fits in with this. Geographically a better parallel would be the Carolingian empire, centred on Aix-la-Chapelle/Aachen. (By the way, I see the word Aix is derived from the Latin for "by the waters", aquis: Aix-la-Chapelle — Wikipédia )
And of course the EU is an organisation of voluntary membership, established by treaty, and with outside nations clamouring to join it. The Roman empire? Not so much...........
Another user got the wrong end of the stick and accused us of wanting to resurrect Rome.
So 3 rum and cokes in, I thought why not.