Want Unity? You have only 2 options to achieve it

[tytlyf]

This boils down to facts vs alternative-facts. Want Unity? One of the following 2 options has to happen.

1. People who rely on facts must start believing and agreeing with alternative-facts.
2. People who rely on alternative-facts must start believing and agreeing with facts.

It's that simple. You cannot have unity if people cannot agree on facts. It will never happen. The division will remain and only grow.

 

[Rival]

How do you know what is a fact?

 

[tytlyf]

How do you know what is a fact?

Research. That response wasn't a good start to the thread.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

This boils down to facts vs alternative-facts. Want Unity? One of the following 2 options has to happen.

1. People who rely on facts must start believing and agreeing with alternative-facts.
2. People who rely on alternative-facts must start believing and agreeing with facts.

It's that simple. You cannot have unity if people cannot agree on facts. It will never happen. The division will remain and only grow.

There are no facts about the meaning of life, the universe and all the rest. All versions of good/best are at best inter-subjective.
"Man is the measure of all things: of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not." Protagoras.

While you can use facts on the objective, you can't do that on unity, because that is a social construct and not a fact.

 

[Rival]

Research. That response wasn't a good start to the thread.

Wel, you are talking about facts and first we need to establish how one knows what is factual.

Research can often lead people to different conclusions from each other and generally not to established facts.

 

[JustGeorge]

I think part of why we're so 'divided' is our cliquishness. "I'm in this camp. I agree with all that goes on here." And you're right, people grow farther entrenched in what they feel is correct, and it takes them farther from the folks in the other group...

I see the division further worsening myself. I worry for where it will end.

 

[Quetzal]

Wel, you are talking about facts and first we need to establish how one knows what is factual.

Research can often lead people to different conclusions from each other and generally not to established facts.

I think this is important, too. We all need to come to terms with the idea that we are pretty ignorant of most things. We rely heavily on others to do the leg work for us and that we are just as vulnerable to misinformation, faulty conclusions, etc. However, what I think is important is to take various sources and perspectives into consideration to form a more complete conclusion.

Someone told me that just because the source is conservative does not make it wrong. We need to question our own assumptions and look for perspectives that make sense, even if the conclusion makes us uncomfortable.

This option was not available in the OP, though.

 

[tytlyf]

Wel, you are talking about facts and first we need to establish how one knows what is factual.

Research can often lead people to different conclusions from each other and generally not to established facts.

Research. This is the one thing people who rely on alternative-facts do not do.
We can beat around the bush if you want, I can get down to business and ask a direct question and see where our facts lead?

Would you prefer that? 1 question, that only has 1 answer. If you want to know where I'm going, it's going to be conservative beliefs. That's where the alternative-facts lie.

So if you want unity, either people have to start accepting the truth or the people who try to accept the truth have to give up that integrity.

Only 2 options, that's all it is.

 

[Augustus]

This boils down to facts vs alternative-facts. Want Unity? One of the following 2 options has to happen.

1. People who rely on facts must start believing and agreeing with alternative-facts.
2. People who rely on alternative-facts must start believing and agreeing with facts.

It's that simple. You cannot have unity if people cannot agree on facts. It will never happen. The division will remain and only grow.

It boils down to scale (size of core political unit) and the consequent reliance on abstractions. Almost all 'facts' are simply noise and of minimal relevance to everyday life for most people.

You want unity, reduce the scale and thus the meaningless abstractions and charades that pass for important 'facts' in the modern political landscape.

 

[Onoma]

What's an " alternative-fact " ?

 

[Rival]

Research. This is the one thing people who rely on alternative-facts do not do.
We can beat around the bush if you want, I can get down to business and ask a direct question and see where our facts lead?

Would you prefer that? 1 question, that only has 1 answer. If you want to know where I'm going, it's going to be conservative beliefs. That's where the alternative-facts lie.

So if you want unity, either people have to start accepting the truth or the people who try to accept the truth have to give up that integrity.

Only 2 options, that's all it is.

What 'truth' though? There is not one 'truth' in politics and there never has been.

I wonder if you've ever done any research and used any 'conservative' sources?

I identify as a conservative and I read The Guardian, a notoriously left-wing newspaper.

We all come to our own conclusions based on our own research. You seem to be implying that 'Oh! If only everyone used reason and checked their facts, they'd all be as liberal as I am!'

Christians and Muslims say the same about their religions. If only folks would pray and read their scriptures, then they'd believe.

It doesn't work that way.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Research. This is the one thing people who rely on alternative-facts do not do.
We can beat around the bush if you want, I can get down to business and ask a direct question and see where our facts lead?

Would you prefer that? 1 question, that only has 1 answer. If you want to know where I'm going, it's going to be conservative beliefs. That's where the alternative-facts lie.

So if you want unity, either people have to start accepting the truth or the people who try to accept the truth have to give up that integrity.

Only 2 options, that's all it is.

No, there are alternate facts in the extreme far left or far right. You don't know the facts of how the world works if you think in black and white. It is more complicated than us versus conservative beliefs.
I am a center left moderate and that means I can see the alternate facts of the far left and right. As for now the far right is more dangerous, but that is for now. And if you go to extreme on the far right, you just end up in another extreme.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What 'truth' though? There is not one 'truth' in politics and there never has been.

I wonder if you've ever done any research and used any 'conservative' sources?

I identify as a conservative and I read The Guardian, a notoriously left-wing news paper.

We all come to our own conclusions based on our own research. You seem to be implying that 'Oh! If only everyone used reason and checked their facts, they'd all be as liberal as I am!'

Christians and Muslims say the same about their religions. If only folks would pray and read their scriptures, then they'd believe.

It doesn't work that way.

Yeah, there are true believers everywhere.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Research. That response wasn't a good start to the thread.

Research is a good response to me.
Research is what the people of Acts of the Apostles 17:11 used to establish biblical facts by searching the Scriptures daily.
Jesus accepted and taught that Scripture is: religious truth (facts) - John 17:17

 

[Secret Chief]

Research. That response wasn't a good start to the thread.

We could start with the numbers at Trump's inauguration and take it from there.

 

[Altfish]

This boils down to facts vs alternative-facts. Want Unity? One of the following 2 options has to happen.

1. People who rely on facts must start believing and agreeing with alternative-facts.
2. People who rely on alternative-facts must start believing and agreeing with facts.

It's that simple. You cannot have unity if people cannot agree on facts. It will never happen. The division will remain and only grow.

2+2=5 Should I believe that alternative fact?

Before any mathematicians pile in that is in base 10

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

2+2=5 Should I believe that alternative fact?

Before any mathematicians pile in that is in base 10

Yeah, everything is nothing but math, right? Your example is too simple, unless you can reduce everything down to math. Can you do that?

 

[tytlyf]

What's an " alternative-fact " ?

Simple. It was coined by the Trump administration by Kellyanne Conway.

Here's an example of an alternative-fact: "The election was fraudulent and stolen"

Completely verified to be consistent with alternative-facts, but not according to those who rely on facts.

Facts and the trust doesn't have a bias. There is only 1 answer.

 

[JustGeorge]

Simple. It was coined by the Trump administration by Kellyanne Conway.

Here's an example of an alternative-fact: "The election was fraudulent and stolen"

Completely verified to be consistent with alternative-facts, but not according to those who rely on facts.

Facts and the trust doesn't have a bias. There is only 1 answer.

But there's more to the divide than just the last election. Its been going on since before Trump, really. What do we do about that?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Simple. It was coined by the Trump administration by Kellyanne Conway.

Here's an example of an alternative-fact: "The election was fraudulent and stolen"

Completely verified to be consistent with alternative-facts, but not according to those who rely on facts.

Facts and the trust doesn't have a bias. There is only 1 answer.

There are always at least two possible truths with 2 or more humans, because existential truth is always subjective.

Further if you have solved the is-ought problem and can turn ought to into fact and truth you have solved sometihng, which no human in record history have done before.

You have done your research, right? Well, apparently not, because the everyday world can't be reduced down to facts and truth. At least until now, because you have solved, right?