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War in the Ukraine?

MD

qualiaphile
Is this what is taught in US schools? Yikes... :cover:



Beat me to it!

Rofl you seriously think the UK could've survived without American aid in WW2? Hitler would have crush the British Army. And forget Hitler, do you really think that Europe could have survived a full out Soviet onslaught without American troops?

You'd have to be truly delusional (and a poor military historian) to think otherwise. Face it the European power, influence and majesty of last century is finished. This century's western values are protected by the United States and it's vast military industrial complex. I don't deny that the complex exists to serve many needs, but one of them is protecting western ideals.
 
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MD

qualiaphile
I didnt think you'd be one of the "murrica stronk"-crew.

Well have fun with that.

You shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you, the very existence of Israel has been due to the overwhelming support of the American government and the supply of highly advanced military hardware.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Shahz, the turning point in WW2 was the battle of Stalingrad, which ended before D-Day. After that, Germany was finished. It is true that US supplies to the Allies were essential, but the Soviets, especially Russians, did most of the heavy lifting. It was a group effort. Stop crowing for the US. We helped, but we tend to exaggerate our role.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Rofl you seriously think the UK could've survived without American aid in WW2? Hitler would have crush the British Army. And forget Hitler, do you really think that Europe could have survived a full out Soviet onslaught without American troops?

You'd have to be truly delusional (and a poor military historian) to think otherwise. Face it the European power, influence and majesty of last century is finished. This century's western values are protected by the United States and it's vast military industrial complex. I don't deny that the complex exists to serve many needs, but one of them is protecting western ideals.

The USSR won WW2. That is a fact.
And how exactly would Hitler have reached the UK apart from the Channel Islands? The so called Operation Seelöwe was always a pipedream after the invasion of the USSR.

And during the Cold War the US helped Western Europe not because its so friendly but because it feared Soviet influence all the way to the Atlantic Ocean.

And in this day and age the US protects its interests. Protecting western values? Oh lol i might die of laughing.


You shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you, the very existence of Israel has been due to the overwhelming support of the American government and the supply of highly advanced military hardware.

So now you jumped from Europe to Israel. Ah well.
 

MD

qualiaphile
Shahz, the turning point in WW2 was the battle of Stalingrad, which ended before D-Day. After that, Germany was finished. It is true that US supplies to the Allies were essential, but the Soviets, especially Russians, did most of the heavy lifting. It was a group effort. Stop crowing for the US. We helped, but we tend to exaggerate our role.

I am not denying that the Soviet Union played the biggest part in the WW2, but without the American supplies in the lend lease program I'm pretty sure the Soviet Union would have lost at Stalingrad.

Without the battle in the pacific to put pressure and prevent Japan from invading Russia from the East the Soviet Union would have found itself in a two front battle.

And without the American military the Soviet Union would have easily conquered the rest of Europe after the fall of Hitler. There was no way any European country could ever have stood up to the Soviet Union.
 
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MD

qualiaphile
The USSR won WW2. That is a fact.
And how exactly would Hitler have reached the UK apart from the Channel Islands? The so called Operation Seelöwe was always a pipedream after the invasion of the USSR.

And during the Cold War the US helped Western Europe not because its so friendly but because it feared Soviet influence all the way to the Atlantic Ocean.

And in this day and age the US protects its interests. Protecting western values? Oh lol i might die of laughing.

The US protects its interests, but it also promotes its values and cultures which is an offshoot of western liberalism. This is a fact. The USSR played a huge part in WW2 but without the American supplies they would have lost.


So now you jumped from Europe to Israel. Ah well.

Since you always defend Israel, I'm just stating the obvious. Israel only exists because America protects it. You really think Israel could have existed without American support and protection, and the pressure America puts on Saudi Arabia and the gulf states? You think the US really cares about Iran getting the bomb for its own security? Please.

You shouldn't hate on the country which has sacrificed it's own global reputation and soldiers lives for the existence of the country you love.
 
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Flankerl

Well-Known Member
The US protects its interests, but it also promotes its values and cultures which is an offshoot of western liberalism. This is a fact. The USSR played a huge part in WW2 but without the American supplies they would have lost.

Yeah all that kept the USSR from collapsing was Lend lease. Oh lol this is hilarious.


Since you always defend Israel, I'm just stating the obvious. Israel only exists because America protects it. You really think Israel could have existed without American support and protection, and the pressure America puts on Saudi Arabia and the gulf states? You think the US really cares about Iran getting the bomb for its own security? Please.

You shouldn't hate on the country which has sacrificed it's own global reputation and soldiers lives for the existence of the country you love.

How do you even know that i love Israel?
Also exactly how many US soldiers have died for the protection of Israel? I cant really remember a war where US forces helped Israel.

And of course the US is only active in the middle east because of Israel.
Not because of the obvious oil.

The US probably also invaded Iraq because of Israel.
Probably even Vietnam...
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I am not denying that the Soviet Union played the biggest part in the WW2, but without the American supplies in the lend lease program I'm pretty sure the Soviet Union would have lost at Stalingrad.
I don't agree. The US played no role at all and was preoccupied with Japan at the time. The whole thing was a tactical blunder by Adolf Hitler, who ordered General Paulus to divert from their successful push to the Caucasus in order to take the city. Marshal Zhukov trapped them off in a pincer movement, which Paulus could have escaped from in the early stages but for Hitler's refusal to let him retreat. The Russian winter and the leadership of Zhukov won that battle. American supplies were important to the Soviets, but there is no reason to believe they were essential in that battle.

Without the battle in the pacific to put pressure and prevent Japan from invading Russia from the East the Soviet Union would have found itself in a two front battle.
Without the Japanese, the US might not even have been in the war at all, and it certainly would have had more military supplies available under Lend-Lease.

And without the American military the Soviet Union would have easily conquered the rest of Europe after the fall of Hitler. There was no way any European country could ever have stood up to the Soviet Union.
There is no evidence that Stalin had any designs beyond what he was allowed to grab under the agreement at the Yalta Conference, in which the US probably ceded much more territory than it had to to Soviet hegemony. Churchill was inclined to be far less generous.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
The USSR won WW2. That is a fact.

No, the USSR contributed the most in terms of both numerical German losses and the sacrifice of around 20 million of its own citizens, to winning the Second World War. It did not achieve the destruction of Germany by itself and would not have been involved in the war at all had Hitler not been so attached to his delusions of imperial grandeur about living space in the east. Although Lend-Lease fell far short of the agreed quotas, it did help significantly. Whenever Russian soldiers opened tins of corned beef from the US and Britain there was a joke amongst them to the effect that, "Look, I'm opening the Second Front"...they had a good point in that while Soviet troops were being sacrificed at lightening speed and at a statistic incomparable to any other war in history, the West was hesitating about just how to actually open another front in Europe...but do you really think they weren't grateful for the food?

British seamen braved the Arctic freeze in convoys to send aid to Russia, while under attack by U-boats and the Luftwaffe. It would be criminal to overlook such endeavours. Even if propaganda in part spurred them, it testifies to the "team effort" that truly irritated the Axis. The propaganda "morale-booster" of witnessing genuine transnational cooperation by Britons braving the Arctic waters to send supplies to the Soviet Union must have so infuriated the Germans. Could they look for anything similar from their alleged Italian and Japanese allies?

Likewise it was the British secret service that provided the Soviets with the indispensable information on German troop movements and plans that enabled them to win the Battle of Kursk in 1943 which was a decisive victory. The Western Allied landings in Sicily also meant that Hitler had to divert some forces to Italy or face a humiliating disaster which helped to further weaken his "pincer" movement. Had the Kursk offensive succeeded in weakening the Soviet potential in the summer of 1943, by cutting off a large number of forces, the Soviet advance to the west could have been irrepressibly delayed. Germany would have encircled and destroyed numerous Soviet divisions, which would have been a fitting counterpoint to Stalingrad. Perhaps there might even have been a bloody stalemate. There was no such intelligence sharing between the Axis Powers which was a potent weakness.

Kursk is therefore a stark illustration of how a "Soviet" victory was in fact a joint allied victory. There is more too the "art" of war than merely annihilating a large body of men. The Allies were truly named, for they were "genuine" allies in a sense that the Axis were not and this was crucial for their ultimate total victory over their foes.

Soviet manpower (and the Russian winter), American industry and British technology/secret services (radar, secret intelligence, enigma codebreaker etc.) together resulted in the destruction of the Third Reich...oh not to mention Hitler's lack of comprehension for military realities on the ground and crazy errors of judgement. Hitler's meglomania was critical in helping the Allies win.

By suggesting that either the US or the USSR "won" the war (or indeed any single nation), we undermine the reality of an international alliance in which everyone played their part - not equally, for the Soviets suffered disproportionate losses and inflicted disproportionate losses in kind - but the burdens of war were shared as was the hour of victory.
 
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Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Not true. These gas resources for China won't be available until the 2020s. Russia earns much more money by selling oil, not gas, and it will be dependent on European trade for years. This will help build a little confidence in Russia's economic indepence from the West, but not in the immediate future. The Russian economy is still very much affected by the sanctions.
 
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