• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

War in the Ukraine?

MD

qualiaphile
But what though? What exactly could the West have done?

Well by the West I should've meant America cuz the EU is too weak to stand up to Russia. Carrier groups, more troops being sent to Eastern Europe, possibly even to Ukraine. I know some people will call me crazy and say that will provoke an all out war but I don't think the Russians would be dumb enough to attack America. As we see diplomacy fail, the military option might have been better but then again hindsight is always 20/20.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
But what though? What exactly could the West have done?

And that's the point, and even some of our own military strategists warn that there's a danger of escalation that could lead to all-out war between us and Russia, and does anyone really want to get close to seeing that? Anyhow, I'm much more pleased that Obama is POTUS than McCain.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Well by the West I should've meant America cuz the EU is too weak to stand up to Russia. Carrier groups, more troops being sent to Eastern Europe, possibly even to Ukraine. I know some people will call me crazy and say that will provoke an all out war but I don't think the Russians would be dumb enough to attack America. As we see diplomacy fail, the military option might have been better but then again hindsight is always 20/20.

The EU is too weak?
The EU is neither a military alliance not a state.
The USA has no moral authority whatsoever when it comes to condemnation of other countries and war.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Well by the West I should've meant America cuz the EU is too weak to stand up to Russia. Carrier groups, more troops being sent to Eastern Europe, possibly even to Ukraine. I know some people will call me crazy and say that will provoke an all out war but I don't think the Russians would be dumb enough to attack America. As we see diplomacy fail, the military option might have been better but then again hindsight is always 20/20.
The problem is that these kinds of actions create conditions where intentions can be misunderstood and accidents can happen. The whole point of diplomacy and measured responses is to try to prevent unforeseen consequences. Both Putin and Obama are not fully in control of their respective countries. They have to try to figure out a way to disengage before they get locked into something very bad that they can't back out of. Personally, I think some of that has happened already, since Lavrov seems unable to come to an agreement with Kerry that won't be undermined by Putin. Putin has a huge fan base of irredentists now--people who have very high expectations that he will assimilate eastern Ukraine. Even if he wants to back out of satisfying that expectation, it will be very difficult. If enthusiasm for him is allowed to drop below a fevered pitch, he may find himself out of power very quickly, because he also has a sizable coalition of political enemies. I don't see how he can walk away now and still save face with his supporters.
 

MD

qualiaphile
The EU is too weak?
The EU is neither a military alliance not a state.
The USA has no moral authority whatsoever when it comes to condemnation of other countries and war.

With 80% of NATO being comprised of American power, with military cutbacks in several EU states, an aging population, and no sense of nationalism...yes, the EU could never face off against Russia alone.

This has nothing to do with moral authority. Geopolitics is almost never 'moral'.
 

MD

qualiaphile
The problem is that these kinds of actions create conditions where intentions can be misunderstood and accidents can happen. The whole point of diplomacy and measured responses is to try to prevent unforeseen consequences. Both Putin and Obama are not fully in control of their respective countries. They have to try to figure out a way to disengage before they get locked into something very bad that they can't back out of. Personally, I think some of that has happened already, since Lavrov seems unable to come to an agreement with Kerry that won't be undermined by Putin. Putin has a huge fan base of irredentists now--people who have very high expectations that he will assimilate eastern Ukraine. Even if he wants to back out of satisfying that expectation, it will be very difficult. If enthusiasm for him is allowed to drop below a fevered pitch, he may find himself out of power very quickly, because he also has a sizable coalition of political enemies. I don't see how he can walk away now and still save face with his supporters.

It seems that Putin is not intervening yet in Ukraine and there seems to be a tense standoff. I thought that Russia would have sent in a 'liberation' force by now. Any idea what that hasn't happened?
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
the EU could never face off against Russia alone.

Save for the part that the military equipment of the EU is vastly superior to that of the Russians and got higher manpower than Russia.

And there are all these neat Anti-tank missles on the border to Russia...
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
It seems that Putin is not intervening yet in Ukraine and there seems to be a tense standoff. I thought that Russia would have sent in a 'liberation' force by now. Any idea what that hasn't happened?

Could it possibly be this?:

Russia is "experiencing recession now" because of damage caused by the Ukraine crisis, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) has said.

Russia experiencing recession now, says IMF - BBC News

I didn't really expect economic sanctions to work, but who knows, maybe the corporate elite of Russia have been putting pressure on Putin to ease off.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
It seems that Putin is not intervening yet in Ukraine and there seems to be a tense standoff. I thought that Russia would have sent in a 'liberation' force by now. Any idea what that hasn't happened?
I think that Putin's plan is to try to avoid an overt invasion. He has sent in special forces operatives to help destabilize the situation and foment ethnic tensions. If things spiral out of control, he could intervene militarily on "humanitarian" grounds, but the template seems to have been established in Crimea. First, they take over government buildings to get their hands on voter rolls. Then they have a referendum to establish "independence" from Ukraine. The ballots for that referendum have already appeared and been distributed for a referendum to take place a few days from now. The only question on the ballot will be whether to declare independence, and nobody is going to be allowed to speak against it publicly. If any people do, they can expect to be harassed and perhaps physically harmed. That referendum will succeed, because the people counting the votes have predetermined the outcome. Next, after the region has seceded, there will be a second referendum to join the Russian Federation. That vote will also succeed for the same reason. This has all been planned out in advance.

The Ukrainian government is now desperately trying to thwart the plan by sending in troops, but they are going to face some very tough and well-trained special forces. Putin intends to succeed by the more peaceful route of the two-step sham elections, or he will succeed by invading the country under the pretense of restoring order and protecting Russians.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Now that Ukraine is sliding into a civil war
Ukraine special forces enlisted to retake Odessa - Courant.com
Opinion: Ukraine on the brink of civil war | Europe | DW.DE | 06.05.2014

Will Russia invade? What are the chances the US will send in 'unofficial' special forces to assist the Ukrainian army?

Hoping the older members (Copernicus and esmith) can give us all some insight.
Nobody knows for sure. The latest move from Putin has been to endorse the Ukrainian election, call for a delay of the referendum by pro-Russia groups, ask them to leave the occupied buildings, and declare that he is pulling his troops back from the Ukrainian border. That all sounds great, but there is no sign that his troops are pulling back. It remains to be seen whether anyone heeds his public calls for conciliation. Since Putin is a proven liar, nobody knows what he is actually doing. So the only way to tell is to look at what actually happens. So far, nothing has changed. Check again tomorrow.
 

MD

qualiaphile
Save for the part that the military equipment of the EU is vastly superior to that of the Russians and got higher manpower than Russia.

And there are all these neat Anti-tank missles on the border to Russia...

Aside from the technological advantage the EU holds over Russia there's nothing else. The EU is old, no nationalism or will to fight. Russia may not be a young country but they do have a lot of patriotic fervour and a very large base to conscript from and being a dictatorship would very easily start massive production of their arms. I think in a one on one confrontation the EU would fold in a few months.

Without America most of the EU would either be part of the Reich or the USSR, this is a fact. The existence of the EU is owed to the might of the American military machine.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Aside from the technological advantage the EU holds over Russia there's nothing else. The EU is old, no nationalism or will to fight. Russia may not be a young country but they do have a lot of patriotic fervour and a very large base to conscript from and being a dictatorship would very easily start massive production of their arms. I think in a one on one confrontation the EU would fold in a few months.

Without America most of the EU would either be part of the Reich or the USSR, this is a fact. The existence of the EU is owed to the might of the American military machine.

I didnt think you'd be one of the "murrica stronk"-crew.

Well have fun with that.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Ukraine destoried by it's "democraty ".

why the democraty becomes the main reason for split countries or civil war ?
 

Sultan Of Swing

Well-Known Member
I thought they were going to be happy with Donetsk being independent, and bide their time for a potential union with Russia, but obviously not...


A Ukrainian separatist leader is calling on Russia to "absorb" the eastern region of Donetsk after Sunday's unofficial vote on its status.

Denis Pushilin, leader of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic, said Moscow should listen to the "will of the people".

Russia has called for dialogue and "implementing" the result, but Ukraine and the EU declared the poll illegal.

East Ukraine separatists seek union with Russia - BBC News
 
Top