Was Abraham a Jew ?

[sooda]

I know he was a son of Terah. And I also know Terah was a son of Heber who was a son of Shem.

For several hours you have claimed Abraham's FATHER was Eber.

There are five Ebers mentioned in the Bible: The father of Peleg and the son of Shelah, son of Arpachshad, third son of Shem, son of Noah (Genesis 10:24). In the Lucan genealogy of Christ he is called Eber (Εβερ) in Greek , but some translations transliterate this as Heber, which has nothing to do with the name Heber in Hebrew.

 

[sooda]

Sooda,

Why aren't you admitting you were wrong to discount their claim, call them thick, and claim that they don't read the Bible?

The Bible says Abraham's father was Terah.

 

[sooda]

Sooda,

Why aren't you admitting you were wrong to discount their claim, call them thick, and claim that they don't read the Bible?

Because YOU are still wrong. Abraham's father was Terah NOT Eber. Can you find Eber on a map?

 

[LightofTruth]

For several hours you have claimed Abraham's FATHER was Eber.

There are five Ebers mentioned in the Bible: The father of Peleg and the son of Shelah, son of Arpachshad, third son of Shem, son of Noah (Genesis 10:24). In the Lucan genealogy of Christ he is called Eber (Εβερ) in Greek , but some translations transliterate this as Heber, which has nothing to do with the name Heber in Hebrew.

You just showed in that diagram that Abraham had a father named Eber. That is the Eber whose name comes Hebrew. Abraham was a Hebrew.

 

[Neutral Name]

Jews or Judeans were descendants of Abraham's great-grandson Judah.
So, the short answer is no, he couldn't have been !

Literally the term Jew means : Of Judah. A person belonging to the tribe of Judah.
The name is not used in the Bible account prior to the fall of the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel where the southern kingdom was called Judah, and the people were called sons of Judah or the tribe of the sons of Judah.

The term Jew first appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jeremiah’s day, at Jeremiah 34:9, and also in Esther concerning Mordecai the Jew, and in the postcaptivity prophecy of Zechariah 8:23.
Later all Israelites who held to the tribe of Judah because of their exclusive worship to Jehovah were also called Jews or Judeans, and the name is so used in the Christian Greek Scriptures.

This elicits another question: Who is a jew today ?
It seems it depend on who you ask.

After the exile (from Babylon) the name was applied to any Israelites returning to Israel (Ezr 4:12; 6:7; Ne 1:2; 5:17) and, finally, to all Hebrews throughout the world, to distinguish them from the Gentile nations. (Es 3:6; 9:20)

Gentiles who accepted the Jewish faith and became circumcised proselytes declared themselves Jews as well.
The Israeli Supreme Court (1970). held,that anyone was a Jew who claimed to be a Jew, even though he was an atheist and not born of a Jewish mother.
However, Orthodox Jewry maintains that Jewish religion and nationality are inseparable.
Tthe Knesset, (Israeli parliament), declared that the definition of Jewishness in the Halakah, be henceforth declared the only legal one. (The Halakah defines a Jew as one born of a Jewish mother or a convert to Judaism). This was made law on March 10, 1970.

Interestingly, The apostle Paul, in arguing that the Jews were mistaken in their pride of fleshly descent and in relying on the works of the Law to find favor with God, said: “For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and his circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.” (Ro 2:28,29)
This argument parallels his reasoning in Romans chapter 4, that the true seed of Abraham are those with the faith of Abraham not fleshly lineage.

Does it matter ?
Maybe Christ's words puts some perspective on it :“ there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, foreigner, Scyth′ian, slave, freeman, but Christ is all things in all”.(Col 3”10)

Genesis 2:7 God formed Adam then made Eve from Adam's rib.
Genesis 4 Adam had three sons.
Genesis 5 One was Seth. Seth had children who had children who had children until Noah was born.
Genesis 5 Noah became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.
Genesis 9:26 He also said, “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem."
Canaan was present-day Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Isra el. Solomon ruled this territory.
Genesis 10 Shem had sons and daughters.
Genesis 11 Shem's sons and daughters had children who had children who had children until Abram was born.
Genesis 17:5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.
Abraham is the father of the three Abrahamic religions Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Judaism because it is written in the Old Testament. Islam because Muslims also believe that Abraham was their father. Chrisitanity is because Jesus was Jewish.
So, Abraham is the father of the Jewish and Islamic religions and, by way of Jesus, Christianity.

Many more generations of Hebrew children were born unti there were 12 tribes of Isreal.
Genesis 49 Jacob had 12 sons. They were the fathers of the 12 tribes of Isreal.
Deuteronomy 33:6–25 lists the twelve tribes who were the 12 sons. Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Benjamin and Joseph including Ephraim and Manasseh.
1 Kings 12 Later the tribes split into Judah and Isreal. Ten tribes were in Israel and 2 Tribes in Judah.
The King of Judah was Rehoboam.
1 Kings 12:21 When Rehoboam arrived in Jerusalem, he mustered all Judah and the tribe of Benjamin—a hundred and eighty thousand able young men—to go to war against Israel and to regain the kingdom for Rehoboam son of Solomon.

1 Kings 12:22 But this word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God:
23 “Say to Rehoboam son of Solomon king of Judah, to all Judah and Benjamin, and to the rest of the people,
24 ‘This is what the Lord says: Do not go up to fight against your brothers, the Israelites. Go home, every one of you, for this is my doing.’” So they obeyed the word of the Lord and went home again, as the Lord had ordered.
This reiterates that they were the same people, just divided because of differences of opinion. I can explain more if anyone cares.

 

[sooda]

You just showed in that diagram that Abraham had a father named Eber. That is the Eber whose name comes Hebrew. Abraham was a Hebrew.

@soujourner

Can you read the chart? Abraham's father was Terah. His grandfather was Serug. Hs great grandfather was Reu.

Eber or Heber has NOTHING to do with "Hebrew"...

 

[Neutral Name]

I think you have misunderstood this.

He was the first Jew and the father to the 12,13 or 14 tribes (depending where in the bible you are).

Genesis 17
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.
2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”
10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.
14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
15 God also said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.
26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day.
27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.

Revelation 7
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Your answer is absolutely accurate.

 

[sooda]

Genesis 2:7 God formed Adam then made Eve from Adam's rib.
Genesis 4 Adam had three sons.
Genesis 5 One was Seth. Seth had children who had children who had children until Noah was born.
Genesis 5 Noah became the father of Shem, Ham and Japheth.
Genesis 9:26 He also said, “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem."
Canaan was present-day Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Isra el. Solomon ruled this territory.
Genesis 10 Shem had sons and daughters.
Genesis 11 Shem's sons and daughters had children who had children who had children until Abram was born.
Genesis 17:5 No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.
Abraham is the father of the three Abrahamic religions Judaism, Islam and Christianity. Judaism because it is written in the Old Testament. Islam because Muslims also believe that Abraham was their father. Chrisitanity is because Jesus was Jewish.
So, Abraham is the father of the Jewish and Islamic religions and, by way of Jesus, Christianity.

Many more generations of Hebrew children were born unti there were 12 tribes of Isreal.
Genesis 49 Jacob had 12 sons. They were the fathers of the 12 tribes of Isreal.
Deuteronomy 33:6–25 lists the twelve tribes who were the 12 sons. Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Benjamin and Joseph including Ephraim and Manasseh.
1 Kings 12 Later the tribes split into Judah and Isreal. Ten tribes were in Israel and 2 Tribes in Judah.
The King of Judah was Rehoboam.
1 Kings 12:21 When Rehoboam arrived in Jerusalem, he mustered all Judah and the tribe of Benjamin—a hundred and eighty thousand able young men—to go to war against Israel and to regain the kingdom for Rehoboam son of Solomon.

1 Kings 12:22 But this word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God:
23 “Say to Rehoboam son of Solomon king of Judah, to all Judah and Benjamin, and to the rest of the people,
24 ‘This is what the Lord says: Do not go up to fight against your brothers, the Israelites. Go home, every one of you, for this is my doing.’” So they obeyed the word of the Lord and went home again, as the Lord had ordered.
This reiterates that they were the same people, just divided because of differences of opinion. I can explain more if anyone cares.

There were no Jews until Judah.

 

[Samael_Khan]

And yet JWs argue Muhammad couldn’t be a Prophet because He wasn’t a Jew, perhaps they should exclude Abraham as well?

It wouldn't exclude Abraham because the Jews are his descendants. Abraham was a hebrew, some of his descendents then became Israelites who were chosen by God to be his people, and eventually the tribe of Judah were referred to as Jews and the name eventually evolved to refer to all the Israelites. Judaism is named after them.

The reason why Christians, not only JW's, say that Muhammed couldn't be a prophet was because the covenants were passed on through Isaac, not Ishmael. So God narrows down who of Abrahams descendents will inherit the covenants over generations. But the reason why Muhammed couldn't be a prophet is because he doesn't confirm the previous scriptures and he nullifies the Law of the Christ going against the teachings of Christianity.

That would be part of the Christian viewpoint.

 

[LightofTruth]

@soujourner

Can you read the chart? Abraham's father was Terah. His grandfather was Serug. Hs great grandfather was Reu.

Eber or Heber has NOTHING to do with "Hebrew"...

Considered by many, Eber comes Hebrew!


‛ibrı̂y
ib-ree'
Patronymic from H5677; an Eberite (that is, Hebrew) or descendant of Eber: - Hebrew (-ess, woman).
Total KJV occurrences: 34

 

[dybmh]

Because YOU are still wrong. Abraham's father was Terah NOT Eber. Can you find Eber on a map?

The Bible says Abraham's father was Terah.

You are misinterpreting their quotes. Will you please re-read them.

Their point is valid. In your enthusiasm to forward your agenda ( " Judaism is false religion copied from the Canaanite / Ugarite Religion " ), I think you made a mistake.

Regarding finding Eber on a map, the same Midrash i quoted previously explains the meaning of the word, Eber. It means "Opposite side". Many people think it was also referring to the opposite side of the river in addition to the ancestor, Eber.

...

Sooda, I think you have lost track of point that was being made by @SA Huguenot and @LightofTruth :

This thread is asking a question: Was Abraham a Jew. SA Hugenot answered: "No he was a Hebrew. Because he came from Eber". You dismissed this because, for you, the most important thing is Abraham was a Canaanite. This is most important to you because of your agenda. And you, rather rudely, attempted to show that what SA Hugenot said was false. But there is overwhelming academic and religious support for what SA Hugenot and Light of Truth and I are saying.

The point is, The label "Jewish" is not relevant in relation to Abraham. That is what SA Hugenot was saying. That's all.

An objective review of the conversation will show that. And I think it's obvious to most of us already.

 

[sooda]

Your answer is absolutely accurate.

There were no such people as ‘Jews’ until about fifteen centuries after Abraham was born, and until six hundred years after the death of Moses.

Joshua 24:2-3 ESV
And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.

Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.

 

[sooda]

Considered by many, Eber comes Hebrew!


‛ibrı̂y
ib-ree'
Patronymic from H5677; an Eberite (that is, Hebrew) or descendant of Eber: - Hebrew (-ess, woman).
Total KJV occurrences: 34

Joshua 24:2-3 ESV
And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.

Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.

 

[sooda]

You are misinterpreting their quotes. Will you please re-read them.

Their point is valid. In your enthusiasm to forward your agenda ( " Judaism is false religion copied from the Canaanite / Ugarite Religion " ), I think you made a mistake.

Regarding finding Eber on a map, the same Midrash i quoted previously explains the meaning of the word, Eber. It means "Opposite side". Many people think it was also referring to the opposite side of the river in addition to the ancestor, Eber.

...

Sooda, I think you have lost track of point that was being made by @SA Huguenot and @LightofTruth :

This thread is asking a question: Was Abraham a Jew. SA Hugenot answered: "No he was a Hebrew. Because he came from Eber". You dismissed this because, for you, the most important thing is Abraham was a Canaanite. This is most important to you because of your agenda. And you, rather rudely, attempted to show that what SA Hugenot said was false. But there is overwhelming academic and religious support for what SA Hugenot and Light of Truth and I are saying.

The point is, The label "Jewish" is not relevant in relation to Abraham. That is what SA Hugenot was saying. That's all.

An objective review of the conversation will show that. And I think it's obvious to most of us already.

Joshua 24:2-3 ESV
And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.

Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.

 

[dybmh]

Joshua 24:2-3 ESV
And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.

Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.

Come down off the soap-box... no one is arguing with you about Terah. You are arguing with yourself.

 

[LightofTruth]

Joshua 24:2-3 ESV
And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.

Then I took your father Abraham from beyond the River and led him through all the land of Canaan, and made his offspring many. I gave him Isaac.

The God of Abraham is called the God of the Hebrews because Abraham was a Hebrew. When Jacob's name was changed the same God is called the God of Israel.
Abraham served other gods until he met the Almighty.

 

[sooda]

Come down off the soap-box... no one is arguing with you about Terah. You are arguing with yourself.

Abraham's mother was also a Horite.

Abraham and his people were Horite Hebrew (Habiru), a caste of ruler-priests who were devotees of the Creator and his son "Horus of the Two Crowns."

The Horite conception of the priesthood is the antecedent of the Jewish and Christian conceptions of the sacrificing priesthood.

 

[sooda]

The God of Abraham is called the God of the Hebrews because Abraham was a Hebrew. When Jacob's name was changed the same God is called the God of Israel.
Abraham served other gods until he met the Almighty.

That's right. Abraham's mother and father were Horites who worshipped the Egyptian God HORUS.

 

[LightofTruth]

That's right. Abraham's mother and father were Horites who worshipped the Egyptian God HORUS.

It doesn't matter what gods he served because the Almighty called him out and made him a father of nations even before he had any kids.

 

[dybmh]

Abraham's mother was also a Horite.

Abraham and his people were Horite Hebrew (Habiru), a caste of ruler-priests who were devotees of the Creator and his son "Horus of the Two Crowns."

The Horite conception of the priesthood is the antecedent of the Jewish and Christian conceptions of the sacrificing priesthood.

Relevance?