Was Bahaullah a "Bahai", please?

[TransmutingSoul]

I translate Baha'i a little differently I consider it 'the follower of the Glory or the light,' and not the follower of the person. I believe the 'first' can be interpreted in different ways, but nonetheless it is not a meaningful question, since of course, Christ is the Manifestation of God for Christianity, Muhammad is the Manifestation of God for Islam, and Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for the Baha'i Faith.

@paarsurrey is playing rhetorical word games with no meaning. The valid question is whether Christ, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah are who they claim to be.

We could say the Bab was the first Baha'i, after all that Message was to prepare the way for all to accept Baha'u'llah.

But as you suggested, names are a barrier to seeing the one source of light. I would say it is not wrong to say that the person of Baha'u'llah being the mirror of that light, is the First to be that light in the age it dawned and the first to live by that light.

@Firemorphic

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

Never-mind, please, though Jesus got Baptized clearly at hands of the John the Baptist and he did not renounce it to become a non-Jew later. So, Jesus was a Jew till he died naturally at the age of about 120 years. He was a man of strong-faith and he never got converted a "Christian" or a "first-Christian" in all his life. I love Jesus and Mary.

Christ did not renounce his Jewish roots, because he claimed to fulfill His Jewish heritage and bring a New Religion to the world. Muhammad did not renounce the religion of the OT heritage.

We are presently discussing about Bahaullah's conversion to a "Bahai" or a "first Bahai" in the "pre-Iqan period and or "Iqan-period". This is the priority here, please.

Regards

Being the "first Baha'i" is not relevant. Simply Baha'u'llah claimed to fulfill the prophecies, and founder of the Baha'i Faith. It is not relevant specifically to either the "pre-Iqan nor the "Iqan-period.

Christ did not renounce his Jewish roots, because he claimed to fulfill His Jewish heritage and bring a New Religion to the world. Muhammad did not renounce the religion of the Old Testament. He fulfilled the Prophecies of the Old Testament. Baha'u'llah made the same claim as Christ and Muhammad, and fulfilled the prophecies. The claim of Baha'u'llah is in the writing of his own hand, and NOT necessarily in the Iqan.


You are indeed in error John the Baptist indeed Baptized Jesus Christ, and began the new Sacrament of Christianity.

 

[David1967]

Never-mind, please, though Jesus got Baptized clearly at hands of the John the Baptist and he did not renounce it to become a non-Jew later. So, Jesus was a Jew till he died naturally at the age of about 120 years. He was a man of strong-faith and he never got converted a "Christian" or a "first-Christian" in all his life

Why would he denounce Judaism if he was proclaiming to be the Jewish Messiah? His teaching however did lead to the Christian faith, much as I imagine Bahaulla's teachings lead to the Bahai faith. So you think Jesus died a natural death at around 120 years old? Interesting. Please consider starting a thread to explore that theory. Im intrigued.

 

[Firemorphic]

We could say the Bab was the first Baha'i, after all that Message was to prepare the way for all to accept Baha'u'llah.

But as you suggested, names are a barrier to seeing the one source of light. I would say it is not wrong to say that the person of Baha'u'llah being the mirror of that light, is the First to be that light in the age it dawned and the first to live by that light.

@Firemorphic

Regards Tony

Why did you quote me?

 

[shmogie]

Was Bahaullah a "Bahai", please?
Bahaullah was sure not a "Bahai" as per the core book of Bahaullah named by him as "Kitab-i-Iqan".

Jesus was not a "Christian", he was a Jew, he was "Baptized" posthumously as virtually being a follower of a new religion "Christianity" by Paul/Church and or the associates.
Thread open to all religions or no-religions.

Regards
___________

68. BAHÁ’U’LLÁH’S REVERENCE FOR THE QUR’ÁN

" It should come as no surprise that Bahá’u’lláh’s respect for the Qur’an was heartfelt and genuine. Bahá’u’lláh was, after all, a Muslim."
CHRISTOPHER BUCK
Visiting Assistant Professor, Michigan State University, [email protected]ÁT PRESSLOS ANGELES
Symbol & Secret: Qur’an Commentary in Baha’u’llah’s Kitab-i Iqan (1995/2004)

Jesus wasn´t a Christian ? Then why did the leaders of the Jewish religion have him crucified ? The Apostles, all Jews, were given the task by Christ to give his Gospel to the world.

Christian, followers of Christ. was the name given to them and the the ever expanding followers they created.

His message was totally unacceptable to the Jews, and He knew his teachings would create a new movement separate from the Judaism of his day.

When He knew they would reject Him, He rejected them, and offered the second covenant.

Your statement about Christ being a Jew in any way but genetically is wrong, Your statement regarding Paul and the Church is wrong as well.

 

[shmogie]

Never-mind, please, though Jesus got Baptized clearly at hands of the John the Baptist and he did not renounce it to become a non-Jew later. So, Jesus was a Jew till he died naturally at the age of about 120 years. He was a man of strong-faith and he never got converted a "Christian" or a "first-Christian" in all his life. I love Jesus and Mary.

We are presently discussing about Bahaullah's conversion to a "Bahai" or a "first Bahai" in the "pre-Iqan period and or "Iqan-period". This is the priority here, please.

Regards

Your observations regarding Christ are as errant as far as East is from West.

He was the perfect prototype Christian and he knew it, as did the Apostles, who saw him put into a tomb, stone cold dead at age 33, and spoke with him 3 days later. Many others saw him as well.

You can´t love Him if you reject who and what he is, for bizarre fiction.

 

[paarsurrey]

Your observations regarding Christ are as errant as far as East is from West.

He was the perfect prototype Christian and he knew it, as did the Apostles, who saw him put into a tomb, stone cold dead at age 33, and spoke with him 3 days later. Many others saw him as well.

You can´t love Him if you reject who and what he is, for bizarre fiction.

"You can´t love Him (Jesus)"

If one likes one may read my thoughts in posts #5 and #13 on another thread , please.

Regards

 

[shunyadragon]

Why would he denounce Judaism if he was proclaiming to be the Jewish Messiah? His teaching however did lead to the Christian faith, much as I imagine Bahaulla's teachings lead to the Bahai faith. So you think Jesus died a natural death at around 120 years old? Interesting. Please consider starting a thread to explore that theory. Im intrigued.

Some believe Jesus Christ escaped the Crucifiction, and lived in hiding with his family in Europe, or Egypt or where ever, including many Muslims.

Surah 4:157-158 which says:

“. . . they [the Jews] said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’ – But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not – Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself . . . .”

This translation is subject to interpretation.

Many in the Christian West still believe in various ways Christ survived the Crucifiction. There are a slew of books in the West that make this claim and a couple of movies.

The Baha'i Faith believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross and escaped death spiritually Resurrected, and that is the interpretation of the Quran.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It might be off-topic to point this out, but are you aware that baptism is a Christian practice, and not a Jewish practice?

Does that makes John the first Christian?

 

[paarsurrey]

Not, sure. His relationship with Bab should not be ignored, instead of that Christopher Buck described him a Muslim. Right, please? Christopher Buck's treatise is with reference to Iqan.
Bab was a Shia Muslim in thoughts and deeds, or not,would be yet another topic.

I now understand that Bahaullah had not physical relationship with Bab and became Bab's follower:
"Bahá'u'lláh first heard of the Báb when he was 27, and received a visitor sent by the Báb, Mullá Husayn, telling him of the Báb and his claims. Bahá'u'lláh became a Bábí and helped to spread the new movement, especially in his native province of Núr, where he became recognized as one of its most influential believers.[11][17]"
Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia
So, I stand corrected. I am an ordinary peaceful Ahmadiyya Muslim and I have no claim of any scholarship or piety for myself. I decide for myself and research for my own self. I have no hatred for Bahaullah, he had died and his destiny now rests with Allah- the One-True-Only-one G-d. I don't judge him.

Regards friends!

 

[danieldemol]

Does that makes John the first Christian?

It’s probably a little more complicated than that, however according to the Gospels John was sent to prepare the way for Christ, and in the Gospels John asks Jesus, “I have need to be baptised of you, and you come to me?” If these statements from the Gospel are correct, it is reasonable to assume that at some point John has acknowledged Jesus’ leadership amongst Jesus’ inner circle.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why would he denounce Judaism if he was proclaiming to be the Jewish Messiah? His teaching however did lead to the Christian faith, much as I imagine Bahaulla's teachings lead to the Bahai faith.

Perhaps the Bahais are reading Bahullah's writing wrongly. Bahaullah may have remained a Twelver Shia, but Abdul Baha made him into the Bahai faith founder, just like Paul did for Jesus. Abdul Baha had Bahaullah's seal.

 

[shunyadragon]

Does that makes John the first Christian?

Being 'first' is a silly problematic question. John was John the Baptist, and Jesus was Jesus Christ.

 

[danieldemol]

Perhaps the Bahais are reading Bahullah's writing wrongly. Bahaullah may have remained a Twelver Shia, but Abdul Baha made him into the Bahai faith founder, just like Paul did for Jesus. Abdul Baha had Bahaullah's seal.

Wasn’t sure if I should reply to this with anything more than a funny icon. In 1890-91 Baha’u’llah Himself had the Kitab-I-Aqdas published in Arabic in Bombay India.

Anyone who thinks Baha’u’llah’s teaching is within the traditional fold of Twelver Shia religion as it is presented by the Twelver clerics is either not familiar with the Kitab-i-Aqdas, or is not familiar with Twelver Shia faith, or perhaps even unfamiliar with both at once.

 

[paarsurrey]

Perhaps the Bahais are reading Bahullah's writing wrongly. Bahaullah may have remained a Twelver Shia, but Abdul Baha made him into the Bahai faith founder, just like Paul did for Jesus. Abdul Baha had Bahaullah's seal.

Please elaborate with references. It is interesting. While reading Iqan, the way Shoghí Effend dealt with the translation of Iqan, and his excessive use of inverted commas and capitalization of the letters of words or decaptilization of them, not providing references of many traditions and also some verses of Quran and the most important of all not providing the Arabic text of the verses of Quran and giving wrong translations at some places etc, suggested that the "guardian" Shoghí Effendí was a Paul to Bahaullah. May be Abdul Baha was also as one has suggested, but I have not yet read anything from him, please.

Regards

 

[loverofhumanity]

Please elaborate with references. It is interesting. While reading Iqan, the way Shoghí Effend dealt with the translation of Iqan, and his excessive use of inverted commas and capitalization of the letters of words or decaptilization of them, not providing references of many traditions and also some verses of Quran and the most important of all not providing the Arabic text of the verses of Quran and giving wrong translations at some places etc, suggested that the "guardian" Shoghí Effendí was a Paul to Bahaullah. May be Abdul Baha was also as one has suggested, but I have not yet read anything from him, please.

Regards

You might find this interesting. It’s a gift for you so put it away and maybe one day when you find time you can have a look at it.

Baha'u'llah: The Great Announcement of the Qur'an

 

[loverofhumanity]

Perhaps the Bahais are reading Bahullah's writing wrongly. Bahaullah may have remained a Twelver Shia, but Abdul Baha made him into the Bahai faith founder, just like Paul did for Jesus. Abdul Baha had Bahaullah's seal.

You make a good point there. Yes both Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi explained in detail the Station Of Baha’u’llah but by His Proclamation to the Kings, Rulers, Leaders of Religion and to the Peoples of the World He made it very clear Who He claimed to be without any need for clarification.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

 

[paarsurrey]

"You can´t love Him (Jesus)"
If one likes one may read my thoughts in posts #5 and #13 on another thread , please.

Do Christians have monopoly on loving Jesus? If yes who issued a license to it, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

You make a good point there. Yes both Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi explained in detail the Station Of Baha’u’llah but by His Proclamation to the Kings, Rulers, Leaders of Religion and to the Peoples of the World He made it very clear Who He claimed to be without any need for clarification.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

So, one means that during the pre-Iqan period Bahaullah was a Muslim. When did he convert to nothing (Atheism) from a Muslim, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

You make a good point there. Yes both Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi explained in detail the Station Of Baha’u’llah but by His Proclamation to the Kings, Rulers, Leaders of Religion and to the Peoples of the World He made it very clear Who He claimed to be without any need for clarification.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh

So, one means that during the pre-Iqan period Bahaullah was a Muslim. When did he convert to nothing (Atheism) from a Muslim, please?
Because "Proclamation to the Kings, Rulers, Leaders of Religion and to the Peoples of the World" was written/un-revealed from G-d in the Post Iqan period in 1868.

Regards