Was Hell a Mistake?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

They are murderers and maggots, and if they weren't nothing would happen to them. I can't take evil and make it something else, it must nature into Heaven.

English, Please. Your statement is devoid of rational discourse. Kinda sad to read, actually.

But you 100% ignored to Fatal Points, I made with respect to your Evil God.

1) any being who creates an Evil Place-- especially one of Infinite Scope? Is Evil. Has to be, to even think of such a place, let alone permitting it to happen.

2) Your god, with malice, deliberately chose to NOT be Convincing to all rational (sane) people. As such, their lack of Faith is all on your god's hands. Another example where your god did Evil Things, and is therefore? Evil.

I can't take evil and make it something else

Indeed -- your god is Evil. You cannot spin that away.

 

[we-live-now]

**But what of Revelation 20:10 about the Devil’s being “tormented day and night for ever and ever”? In Jesus’ time jailers were called “tormenters.” So when the Scripture says he will be “tormented day and night for ever and ever” in the “lake of fire,” it means that the Devil will be restrained in a never-ending detention [or state] of destruction. Indeed, it will be “for ever and ever.”**

I think one would need a personal revelation about the word "and". Revelation 20:10 says "and the thru-caster" was cast into the lake of the (Holy) fire (puros/purity/purify).

So, as you see it's not just "the thru-caster" but rather "and the thru-caster". Same for Genesis 3:1, it's not just "the-serpent" but rather "and-the-serpent" (one word).

What is a spiritual "and"? Why is the-serpent and the thru-caster wrapped in and?

 

[we-live-now]

Both Christianity and Islam hold out the threat of eternal torture in hell as a reason to adopt their religion. But was hell a mistake?

Consider this: Numerous people -- both Christians and Muslims -- are Christian and Muslim in name only because they simply ignore, dismiss, or do not adhere to the more humane teachings of their religions.

Instead, all that matters to them is they are saved (and that, of course, homosexuals and folks who've had abortions "get what's coming to them"). Would either or both religions not be better off without them? Do they not corrupt the religions they profess to support?

I think hell is a misunderstanding of the ignorant egoic (split) mind. God's Holy fire is not destructive like physical fire but rather purifying and cleansing. That is why the "burning bush" that Moses saw wasn't consumed. He was actually seeing the very source of life itself.

I am convinced hell is a state of mind where we are divided and perceive lack or extreme desire such as lust. We become on "fire" for the object of our desire. Look at the word for God's "wrath" in the NT. It is "orge". See this from Strong's concordance.

G3709 orge or-gay' from G3713;

properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence)

The "tongue" as the beginning of both the digestive (hunger) and reproductive (sexual) systems is mentioned as a source of this "fire/heat". In James 3:6, the tongue is called the "fire of the system" and it is "blazing the wheel of the generating".

Imagine the worst itch that you can't reach. Many are in hell right now and don't know it being separated from their peace of mind (wholeness).

 

[i_feel_free]

Both Christianity and Islam hold out the threat of eternal torture in hell as a reason to adopt their religion. But was hell a mistake?

Consider this: Numerous people -- both Christians and Muslims -- are Christian and Muslim in name only because they simply ignore, dismiss, or do not adhere to the more humane teachings of their religions.

Instead, all that matters to them is they are saved (and that, of course, homosexuals and folks who've had abortions "get what's coming to them"). Would either or both religions not be better off without them? Do they not corrupt the religions they profess to support?

Hell exists in some sense, but it is a state of mind. Many people are experiencing a "hell on earth" right now, whether due to mental illness, incarceration, drug addiction, or simply an existential emptiness. The error is the notion of eternal hell. No being is eternally damned. Salvation or liberation from suffering is available to any individual, regardless of his life story. Those who die having committed terrible sins during their lives are likely to have an unpleasant experience in the afterlife, but after some time, once the karma of those sins have been exhausted, they will be given as many opportunity as they require to turn toward the light. Unfortunately, because many religious people don't accept the doctrine of reincarnation, they believe we have one chance to get it right, after which we will be eternally damned if we don't repent and accept God. This is a wrong understanding. All beings must eventually come to the light. A person can create tremendous suffering for himself (and others), for a very long time, but eventually he/she must tire of suffering and surrender to the light of God.

 

[MonkeyFire]

[QUOTE="Bob the Unbeliever, post: 5682157, member: 61845"

1) any being who creates an Evil Place-- especially one of Infinite Scope? Is Evil. Has to be, to even think of such a place, let alone permitting it to happen.

2) Your god, with malice, deliberately chose to NOT be Convincing to all rational (sane) people. As such, their lack of Faith is all on your god's hands. Another example where your god did Evil Things, and is therefore? Evil.



Indeed -- your god is Evil. You cannot spin that [/QUOTE]

WHAT???

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

WHAT???

I don't know if I can make it any simpler.

Any being who deliberately creates a place of infinite suffering/torture/anguish? (hell)

Is infinitely evil, for having done so.

That's the consequence of creating such an evil thing.

Just because it's supposedly all-powerful does not absolve it from the consequences of evil acts.

 

[MonkeyFire]

I don't know if I can make it any simpler.

Any being who deliberately creates a place of infinite suffering/torture/anguish? (hell)

Is infinitely evil, for having done so.

That's the consequence of creating such an evil thing.

Just because it's supposedly all-powerful does not absolve it from the consequences of evil acts.

God created Deception? God didn't create the underworld, nor does he allow it to exist, again I am passive.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God created Deception? God didn't create the underworld, nor does he allow it to exist, again I am passive.

If god didn't create it, who did? And whoever did, is clearly far more powerful than your god.

For it's obvious your god is powerless to prevent it from existing, unless your god allowed it to happen?

Then we are back to your god being evil...

 

[MonkeyFire]

If god didn't create it, who did? And whoever did, is clearly far more powerful than your god.

For it's obvious your god is powerless to prevent it from existing, unless your god allowed it to happen?

Then we are back to your god being evil...

Hell and the devil are moral. Is Hell the prison or the prisoner?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Hell and the devil are moral. Is Hell the prison or the prisoner?

No-- infinite torture is immoral, always. Sorry about that-- your god is still evil..

 

[MonkeyFire]

No-- infinite torture is immoral, always. Sorry about that-- your god is still evil..

I don't torment them. Those who suffer end in retribution. But if they torment others they experience their own nature.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don't torment them. Those who suffer end in retribution. But if they torment others they experience their own nature.

If you created a business, who's purpose was to purchase dogs, and raised them in tiny cages, to sell to unsuspecting customers? Would that be evil? Of course it would! The puppies would always be existing in misery util they were sold. What if they stayed in the cages for all eternity, instead?

Any being (aka your god) who permits infinite suffering-- doesn't matter the root-cause-- is pure evil.

 

[MonkeyFire]

If you created a business, who's purpose was to purchase dogs, and raised them in tiny cages, to sell to unsuspecting customers? Would that be evil? Of course it would! The puppies would always be existing in misery util they were sold. What if they stayed in the cages for all eternity, instead?

Any being (aka your god) who permits infinite suffering-- doesn't matter the root-cause-- is pure evil.

I don't believe you can create evil before it just happens. Love and Hate are the unstopable force and imovable object.

 

[osgart]

The idea of eternal hell sounds totally unproductive. Perhaps if hell was a purifying fire and a demolition and reconstruction of the soul, it would hold redeeming power. If a religion truly wants to conquer evil, then conquer the hearts and minds of the worst criminals on earth.

So im into reforming the eternal flames of hell. Perhaps it should be eternal til repentance. I mean deprive an evil one of all goodness and they might begin to change.

One way out deal on getting out of hell. I think that is a sufficient hell for anybody. Its one to fear.

Come to think of it existence is a type of purgatory/hell. Maybe there is a God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Come to think of it existence is a type of purgatory/hell. Maybe there is a God.

It is for some of us.
Thank God there is a heaven in the worlds to come.

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

 

[osgart]

It sure feels the way gleanings says there.

I have come to the realization that all living creatures have a responsibility toward all other living creatures. Now how ideal is that, that we are supposed to care for one another. If life is meant to be, then that's its ideal.

 

[Trailblazer]

It sure feels the way gleanings says there.

I have come to the realization that all living creatures have a responsibility toward all other living creatures. Now how ideal is that, that we are supposed to care for one another. If life is meant to be, then that's its ideal.

Yes, that is the way we are supposed to be.

“The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don't believe you can create evil before it just happens. Love and Hate are the unstopable force and imovable object.

So your god is powerless, then? We finally agree on something. Imaginary things *are* powerless.

 

[MonkeyFire]

So your god is powerless, then? We finally agree on something. Imaginary things *are* powerless.

But, Hate is a worthy advesary.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

But, Hate is a worthy advesary.

Any being which either contemplates creating infinite torture, or simply permitting it to even exist at all?

Likely does so because of hate. So sure, why not? I do consider all gods who permit or create torture-places to be advisories, even though I recognize they are all imaginary.

This is because even imaginary gods can enable people to commit massive acts of extreme brutality.

We are witnessing this in the USA even today... and it seems to be getting worse, under the trump-fascist-in-chief.