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Was Islam spread by the sword?

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outhouse

Atheistically
I will have to honestly say that I question whether or not more Atheists know more about the Bible than more Christians do

Quality over quantity

Theism can only be a negative aspect because at one time or another you would be forced to let theistic bias shape your work. That's when credibility goes out the window. The conclusion makes the scholar, not how much knowledge they have. Its like a broken compass, the truth is harder to find if your pulled in one direction.

Works against atheist the same way, if he/she has any bias.

I know a Jewish/agnostic author whom I can ask about any question regarding any church father, and he is like hard drive full of knowledge, but his conclusions are laughable at best.


What you will find out with higher levels of biblical knowledge, we don't care what each other believes. There is no gap between us. There is no theism and atheism, and neither would show a weak hand by letting bias enter or screw up the truth. Unfortunately I don't see many full fledge Christians scholars or Professors. They exist, I don't run across them much.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Mestemia said:
In Post #2682
What does the Koran say about cars?
What does the Koran say about cloning?
What does the Koran say about medicine?
other than camel urine is a magical cure all...
paarsurrey said:
Are you against animals? Camel is an innocent animal. Isn't it? Please

Paarsurrey says:
This innocent animal (camel) which was called the ship of the desert in Arabia, was to be a sign, among many others, as mentioned in Quran in Post #2833 and Hadith Post #2854 and illustrated further in #2910.The prophecy of the she-camels being abandoned can evidently be understood to mean that better, faster and more powerful means of transport will have been invented .
This happened in the nineteenth century when with the development of the modern vehicles, like Railway Trains and later Cars, Buses, Trucks .
Yes indeed it happened precisely as it was the the
time of the Jesus' (Second Coming) , when she-camel was abandoned and public started using steam-ships and later in the next century aeroplanes as beasts of burden and for travels so that a journey that took months when she-camels were used it now took days or hours to reach from one continent to the other.

It is not a negligible sign, that got fulfilled. One would agree here with me. Please
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad only brought out the truth that was already given to Muhammad in the shape of Quran/Islam, later Muslims deviated from it as prophesied by Muhammad. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad re------formed the existing creeds of Muslims, he did not propound any new creeds of Quran/Islam/Muhammad. It is so simple, should not be difficult to understand. Is it? Please
Regards

If that is true, paarsurrey, then why is there not a single Sunni or Shia source that recognizes the claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad or even references them in scholarly opinions?

You asked really a good question.
And a reply to it as also given by truthful Muhammad himself in many a prophetic Hadith, I just quote one:

"There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Quran except its inscription. Their mosques will be splendidly furnished but destitute of guidance. Their divines will be the worst people under the heaven and strife will issue from and avert to them."
(Mishkatul Masabih, Kitabul Ilm)​
This exactly states the plight of Sunnis and Shias.
Regards
 
Last edited:

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Mestemia said:
In Post #2682
What does the Koran say about cars?
What does the Koran say about cloning?
What does the Koran say about medicine?
other than camel urine is a magical cure all...
paarsurrey said:
Are you against animals? Camel is an innocent animal. Isn't it? Please

Paarsurrey says:
This innocent animal (camel) which was called the ship of the desert in Arabia, was to be a sign, among many others, as mentioned in Quran in Post #2833 and Hadith Post #2854 and illustrated further in #2910.The prophecy of the she-camels being abandoned can evidently be understood to mean that better, faster and more powerful means of transport will have been invented .
This happened in the nineteenth century when with the development of the modern vehicles, like Railway Trains and later Cars, Buses, Trucks .
Yes indeed it happened precisely as it was the the
time of the Jesus' (Second Coming) , when she-camel was abandoned and public started using steam-ships and later in the next century aeroplanes as beasts of burden and for travels so that a journey that took months when she-camels were used it now took days or hours to reach from one continent to the other.

It is not a negligible sign, that got fulfilled. One would agree here with me. Please
Regards

Not even close to convincing....
Camels are still used as beasts of burden, just not nearly so much. If the prophecy had actually mentioned cars, trains, steamships, or airplanes, then you might have something.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
You asked really a good question.
And a reply to it as also given by truthful Muhammad himself in many a prophetic Hadith, I just quote one:

"There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Quran except its inscription. Their mosques will be splendidly furnished but destitute of guidance. Their divines will be the worst people under the heaven and strife will issue from and avert to them."
(Mishkatul Masabih, Kitabul Ilm)​
This exactly states the plight of Sunnis and Shias.
Regards
So, fanatics like yourself represent the new reformed Islam. That is certainly reassuring.
 

McBell

Unbound
Mestemia said:
In Post #2682
What does the Koran say about cars?
What does the Koran say about cloning?
What does the Koran say about medicine?
other than camel urine is a magical cure all...
paarsurrey said:
Are you against animals? Camel is an innocent animal. Isn't it? Please

Paarsurrey says:
This innocent animal (camel) which was called the ship of the desert in Arabia, was to be a sign, among many others, as mentioned in Quran in Post #2833 and Hadith Post #2854 and illustrated further in #2910.The prophecy of the she-camels being abandoned can evidently be understood to mean that better, faster and more powerful means of transport will have been invented .
This happened in the nineteenth century when with the development of the modern vehicles, like Railway Trains and later Cars, Buses, Trucks .
Yes indeed it happened precisely as it was the the
time of the Jesus' (Second Coming) , when she-camel was abandoned and public started using steam-ships and later in the next century aeroplanes as beasts of burden and for travels so that a journey that took months when she-camels were used it now took days or hours to reach from one continent to the other.

It is not a negligible sign, that got fulfilled. One would agree here with me. Please
Regards
If you are not going to address the points made in a post, you really should not reply to them.
Replying to a post and not addressing the points of the replied to post only makes you look bad.
Like you are hiding something.
Though in your case, it is obvious you are hiding the truth.
From yourself.
 
GAME OVER.

Muhammad was raised by a heretical Christian writing bible in Arabic. he was raised in heretical biblical traditions! and he passed on Warakas heretical biblical text with bloodshed to the public

Hmm a lot of supposition in this, although it has some grounding in tradition. Which scholars is it associated with?

It basically accepts Islamic tradition except with the convenient (but unfounded?) assumption Muhammed was raised by Waraqa. Then recasts Muhammed as the puppet of Waraqa. The jump you are making doesn't seem to represent anything that could be said with any degree of certainty though, let alone 'game over'.

What would you say Waraqa's overriding message was? Why do you believe that Waraqa was the source of this message? How do you view the audience of this message as to their beliefs pre-Muhammed? Why is this view preferable over other revisionist histories?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Why do you believe that Waraqa was the source of this message?

Waraka was a heretical Christian priest that was known to pervert the bible in Arabic, sort of exactly what the koran historically is.

he was muhammads cousin

the text date to Warakas time

he is said to have brought muhammad in at 5 years of age.


Then recasts Muhammed as the puppet of Waraqa

No it shows Muhammad being is his best student

The jump you are making doesn't seem to represent anything that could be said with any degree of certainty though, let alone 'game over'.

REALLY ???????????


Sorry it is the most plausible explanation for the text to date.

The text did not come from nowhere, it did not come out of thin air. Muhammad had to be taught this information, he factually had to have a teacher.

the koran has copied mythology from the bible. That means we look at who muhammad knew that had biblical knowledge and wrote in Arabic.

Low and behold the first man to claim Muhammad was divine was WARAKA
 
he is said to have brought muhammad in at 5 years of age.

Found him when he was lost and returned him to his family though, not raised him.

REALLY ???????????


Sorry it is the most plausible explanation for the text to date.

The text did not come from nowhere, it did not come out of thin air. Muhammad had to be taught this information, he factually had to have a teacher.

the koran has copied mythology from the bible. That means we look at who muhammad knew that had biblical knowledge and wrote in Arabic.

Low and behold the first man to claim Muhammad was divine was WARAKA

The problem is that you are taking the Sirah as being accurate, then choosing to reinterpret it to suit a personal belief. It's not really a rigorous approach to academic history, more a hopeful speculation.

Do you consider the Sirah to be an accurate reflection of Muhammed's life? If not why should you choose this aspect to trust other than the idea that it makes a nice sounding story? What milieu do you think the Quran was 'revealed' in?

Given the lack of evidence, why is this view the 'most plausible' amongst the non-traditional approaches to the history?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Further to Posts #2717, #2720 , #2722, and #2942 in response to OP's Post #1 I have to add:
Those who doubt that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad they should focus on spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam, If it has happened now peacefully, it should be a clear sign for the doubtful that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad.
I gave how Ahmadiyya spread peacefully in Argentina post #2430, Australia Post #2460 , Austria Post #2489, Bangladesh Post #2513, Belarus Post #2535, Belgium Post#2556, Belize #2571, Bulgaria Post #2595, Cameroon Post #2619, Canada Post #2636,Chad Post #2651,Congo #2672, Denmark #2703, Egypt #2824, Fiji #2883, France #2942 .
  • Now I give peaceful spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in
    23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
    Germany.
    [1]

  • Ahmadiyya-Muslim-Jamaat in der BRD
Religiöse Gemeinschaften Address: Babenhäuser Landstraße 25, 60599 Frankfurt am Main, Germany: Phone:+49 69 681485
  • Bait-ul-Baqi Mosque :Address: Theodor-Heuss-Ring 48, 63128 Dietzenbach, Germany : Phone:+49 800 2107758
  1. BAITUL%2BBAQI1.jpg
einweihung-bait-ul-baqi-dietzenbach-016-ei.jpg

The Head of the worldwide Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat, Hazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad, opend a Mosque in Dietzenbach, the Bait-ul-Baqi-Mosque, on 21th June 2011.
http://ahmadiyyamosque.blogspot.ca/2015/01/bait-ul-baqi-dietzenbach-hessen-germany.html
  • Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat Deutschland KdöR
Address: Genfer Str. 11, 60437 Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Phone:+49 177 7910033

0.jpg

SENDUNG - ASPEKTE DES ISLAM
Aufklärung und Imagepflege durch deutsche Muslime - Podiumsdiskussion aus der Universität Hamburg 1/5
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourcei...ha=0&tbm=lcl&rlfi=hd:;si:18110959684798882577

Country/Region:
23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany.

Ahmadiyya population : 50,000
Percentage (%) of Muslims :1.2
Percentage (%) of population :< 0.1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_by_country

Does one see any sword used for spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in
23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany
?


Regards
 
Last edited:

McBell

Unbound
Further to Posts #2717, #2720 , #2722, and #2942 in response to OP's Post #1 I have to add:
Those who doubt that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad they should focus on spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam, If it has happened now peacefully, it should be a clear sign for the doubtful that Islam spread peacefully in times of Muhammad.
I gave how Ahmadiyya spread peacefully in Argentina post #2430, Australia Post #2460 , Austria Post #2489, Bangladesh Post #2513, Belarus Post #2535, Belgium Post#2556, Belize #2571, Bulgaria Post #2595, Cameroon Post #2619, Canada Post #2636,Chad Post #2651,Congo #2672, Denmark #2703, Egypt #2824, Fiji #2883, France #2942 .
  • Now I give peaceful spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in
    23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
    Germany.
    [1]

  • Ahmadiyya-Muslim-Jamaat in der BRD
Religiöse Gemeinschaften Address: Babenhäuser Landstraße 25, 60599 Frankfurt am Main, Germany: Phone:+49 69 681485
  • Bait-ul-Baqi Mosque :Address: Theodor-Heuss-Ring 48, 63128 Dietzenbach, Germany : Phone:+49 800 2107758
  1. BAITUL%2BBAQI1.jpg
einweihung-bait-ul-baqi-dietzenbach-016-ei.jpg

The Head of the worldwide Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat, Hazrat Mirza Masroor Ahmad, opend a Mosque in Dietzenbach, the Bait-ul-Baqi-Mosque, on 21th June 2011.
http://ahmadiyyamosque.blogspot.ca/2015/01/bait-ul-baqi-dietzenbach-hessen-germany.html
  • Ahmadiyya Muslim Jamaat Deutschland KdöR
Address: Genfer Str. 11, 60437 Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Phone:+49 177 7910033

0.jpg

SENDUNG - ASPEKTE DES ISLAM
Aufklärung und Imagepflege durch deutsche Muslime - Podiumsdiskussion aus der Universität Hamburg 1/5
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourcei...ha=0&tbm=lcl&rlfi=hd:;si:18110959684798882577

Country/Region:
23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany.

Ahmadiyya population : 50,000
Percentage (%) of Muslims :1.2
Percentage (%) of population :< 0.1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya_by_country

Does one see any sword used for spread of Ahmadiyya true Islam in
23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png
Germany
?


Regards
Do you have some sort of belief that the longer your posts the more correct they are?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Found him when he was lost and returned him to his family though, not raised him.

I suppose they hopped in his minivan ad rushed him right home and never said a word. :rolleyes:


The text did not come from nowhere, it did not come out of thin air. Muhammad had to be taught this information, he factually had to have a teacher.


the koran has copied mythology from the bible. That means we look at who muhammad knew that had biblical knowledge and wrote in Arabic.
 
I suppose they hopped in his minivan ad rushed him right home and never said a word. :rolleyes:


The text did not come from nowhere, it did not come out of thin air. Muhammad had to be taught this information, he factually had to have a teacher.


the koran has copied mythology from the bible. That means we look at who muhammad knew that had biblical knowledge and wrote in Arabic.

For someone so keen on academic history and the proper pursuit of knowledge, you seem far too certain about this view. You are stating speculation as close to fact, which is the opposite of academic historical enquiry. You also don't appear to be very familiar with much actual scholarship on the issue, which probably leads to your overconfidence.

It is certainly plausible, but then again many untrue things are plausible also.

"On the basis of this assumed link, which identifies the Ebionites with those Christians who are called Nasara in the Qur’an, Azzi presses an audacious claim that has yet to be substantiated. His thesis is based on the figure of Waraqa b. Nawfal,37 the cousin of Muhammad’s first wife, Khadija, who is portrayed by Azzi as Muhammad’s teacher and mentor.38 According to Muslim tradition, Waraqa was literate and became a Christian in pre-Islamic times. He copied down passages from the Christian scriptures and recognized Muhammad’s prophetic mission immediately after his first Qur’anic revelation. Azzi, however, depicts him as a priest who prepared Muhammad to follow him as the leader and head of the small Ebionite community of Mecca. Muhammad betrayed this project when he migrated to Medina and there became the head of the new Islamic state. The separation of the pupil from the teacher explains the change that took place between an original Qur’an and the codex of ‘Uthman. The original Qur’an, assembled by the priest, was intended to serve as a lectionary for the ritual worship of the Christian Arab community of Mecca. The codex of ‘Uthman, on the other hand, put together as a book after Muhammad’s death, incorporates the agenda of Muhammad’s Islamic state and constitutes the basis of our present-day Qur’an... To sum up, Azzi’s study is highly speculative and poorly documented" G. Bowering - Recent research on the construction of the Quran

"The trouble is that there is simply no way to substantiate or disprove such suppositions, which are speculative and/or circular – the putative evidence is too shaky and meagre indeed to allow any conclusion." G. Dye - Jewish Christianity, the Qur’ān, and Early Islam

Even if we accept the Sirah as being true and look at who 'Muhammed knew who had Biblical knowledge', then we also have to consider Ziad ibn Amr, Uthman ibn Huwarith, Ubaid-Allah ibn Jahsh.

And this is not to mention the important detail that the audience of the Quran is clearly people who are familiar with scripture, which really requires more than a handful of knowledgable people.

History states the book was copied/plagiarized mythology and that the bible was its source.

'History' states many potential things that don't fit into this narrow paradigm, as you should know if you are familiar with contemporary scholarship.

"Even a brief perusal of the Arabic Qurʾān is sufficient to convince the first-time reader that the text presumes a high degree of scriptural literacy on the part of its audience... What is more, there are numerous echoes in the Qurʾān of non- biblical, Jewish and Christian traditions, some of them otherwise found in so-called apocryphal or pseudepigraphic biblical texts." S. Griffiths - The Bible in Arabic

The whole field is full of tentative enquiry relying on a complex and interdisciplinary approach, why are you so confident you are correct when the world's leading experts are not?

In this and another thread you are talking about how we 'know' Waraqa was his teacher and how it's 'GAME OVER'. I can only assume this is based on lack of knowledge rather than a genuine interest in scholarly enquiry as regard this field.

What do you consider to be some good resources on the origins of Islam to justify your certainty?

 

outhouse

Atheistically
the world's leading experts are not?

I'm sorry you have not posted any.

Nor have you supplied a link.

History states the book was copied/plagiarized mythology and that the bible was its source. This is not up for debate.

the Qurʾān of non- biblical, Jewish and Christian

So what!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It refutes nothing.


It just means they added Arabic traditions to the copied mythology.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Even if we accept the Sirah as being true and look at who 'Muhammed knew who had Biblical knowledge', then we also have to consider Ziad ibn Amr, Uthman ibn Huwarith, Ubaid-Allah ibn Jahsh.

NON SEQUITUR

The text did not come from nowhere, it did not come out of thin air. Muhammad had to be taught this information, he factually had to have a teacher.


Your statement does not refute that, it gives more possible evidence of exactly what I stated.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Ziad ibn Amr

a 19 year old is not going to have the wealth of knowledge we can attribute to the koran.

he converted to islam at 19, so the text already existed :rolleyes:

Keep reaching this is fun


It also shows evidence against any angel being required to tell muhammad a single word, sounds like he was surrounded by Arabic christians
 
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