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Was it fair to kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden?

Iasion

Member
Gday,

You're forgetting one thing . . . that book is a tome of fiction.

You're forgetting one thing - no I'm not forgetting that.
Did I say it actually occured? No.
So why did you say that?


We're actually talking about the why Adam and Eve were expelled from the GoE - a reason which must believers get wrong.

I never said it wasn't fiction - indeed I am known for arguing the whole thing, even the NT, is a myth.

(Strictly speaking it's NOT fiction by myth.)


Iasion
 

Iasion

Member
Gday,

Sure, that's the main reason for the expulsion, but it is not the only reason.

It's the only reason specifically given in the Bible - your opinions about other reasons implied from your interpretation of other passages doesn't count.


Iasion
 

gnostic

The Lost One
iasion said:
It's the only reason specifically given in the Bible - your opinions about other reasons implied from your interpretation of other passages doesn't count.

I understand (and agree with you) that preventing adam and eve from living forever is the reason from barring them from Paradise.

But there is also a logical, and possible reason from the ejection, which I have already given in my previous reply.

Consider that the Garden of Eden was a place where you don't have to work for their food, and consider that God's curse was that Adam have to toil for his food (Genesis 3:17-19), then it only stand to reason that god would have to remove the fallen couple out of his paradise.

God said:
Genesis 3:17 said:
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life....

Now, I doubt very much that God would curse the ground in the Garden of Eden (he could if he wanted to) because Eden was sacred to God, so God had to force them out of Eden.

Do you think God would curse Eden? Do you God would let Adam farm on Eden?

It makes sense that there could be 2 reasons (or more).

But I understand your point, and I don't disagree with you. In any case, I've made my point.
 

Iasion

Member
Gday,

It makes sense that there could be 2 reasons (or more).

Really?
Why does it make sense?

1 reason is written right there IN the bible.
The other is your opinion and interpretation.

Why is there any need to make up an opinion on OTHER possible reasons?

Why don't you just accept what the story says?


Iasion
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Do you think God would curse Eden? Do you God would let Adam farm on Eden?

It makes sense that there could be 2 reasons (or more).

bud i like your post and understand what your trying to say.

do you think your trying to hard to rationalize fiction???

Im not sure but You could be trying to combine different authors viewpoints

The following outline is very general and does not take into account all the individual variations of each critic (42). The Creation story in Gen 1 has been assigned to P, while the Creation story in Gen 2, the story of the fall in Gen 3 and the story of antediluvian life in Gen 4, have been assigned to J. The genealogical list of Gen 5 has been assigned to P. The Flood story of Gen 6-9 was supposedly edited together from more than twenty different individual pieces of J and P. The Table of Nations in Gen 10 has been divided into four sections attributed to P and three sections attributed to J. The Tower of Babel story at the beginning of Gen 11 is assigned to J while the rest of the chapter dedicated to another genealogy is attributed to P.
This interpretation makes Gen 1-11 supposedly a veritable patchwork quilt of literary fragments that were composed four centuries apart during the first half of the first millennium B.C
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
The following outline is very general and does not take into account all the individual variations of each critic (42). The Creation story in Gen 1 has been assigned to P, while the Creation story in Gen 2, the story of the fall in Gen 3 and the story of antediluvian life in Gen 4, have been assigned to J. The genealogical list of Gen 5 has been assigned to P. The Flood story of Gen 6-9 was supposedly edited together from more than twenty different individual pieces of J and P. The Table of Nations in Gen 10 has been divided into four sections attributed to P and three sections attributed to J. The Tower of Babel story at the beginning of Gen 11 is assigned to J while the rest of the chapter dedicated to another genealogy is attributed to P.
This interpretation makes Gen 1-11 supposedly a veritable patchwork quilt of literary fragments that were composed four centuries apart during the first half of the first millennium B.C
I would enjoy having the references to this.
Will you post them please?

Thanks.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
outhouse said:
bud i like your post and understand what your trying to say.

do you think your trying to hard to rationalize fiction???

Because that's what I do.

Although, I do not do what I do because of belief, but out of literary interpretation.

Also, I like myth, especially Greek and Norse myths. And that's how I view the bible, as a myth.

Have you seen my website Timeless Myths or the Dark Mirrors of Heaven?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Because that's what I do.

Although, I do not do what I do because of belief, but out of literary interpretation.

Also, I like myth, especially Greek and Norse myths. And that's how I view the bible, as a myth.

Have you seen my website Timeless Myths or the Dark Mirrors of Heaven?

I like your website

yes ive been there :)

As far as literary interpretation, you have your hands full with genesis due to the patchwork involved. If your happy then thats all that counts :)
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
That kicking of Adam and Eve out of the Garden was only the metaphorical way to explain that man had not been granted the attribute of eternity. So that man could not eat from the tree fo life and live forever.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
That kicking of Adam and Eve out of the Garden was only the metaphorical way to explain that man had not been granted the attribute of eternity. So that man could not eat from the tree fo life and live forever.


Though it be metaphorical...that tree of life eternal...
would you then say the first man to speak with God, and to walk in God's
presence was not Adam?

So now I find it needful to ask....
do you think Chapter Two of Genesis is altogether fictional?
Adam did not walk with God?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
What do u mean by this, outhouse?

outhouse said:
Im not sure but You could be trying to combine different authors viewpoints

Which authors are u referring to?

Are u referring to the Sumerian & Babylonian literature that Hebrew may have adopted the idea & adapted to their religious narrative?

I am familiar with this idea & have the same feeling about this as you.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
What do u mean by this, outhouse?



Which authors are u referring to?

Are u referring to the Sumerian & Babylonian literature that Hebrew may have adopted the idea & adapted to their religious narrative?

I am familiar with this idea & have the same feeling about this as you.

Im just making sure your aware that you could be trying to pull a singular thought out of more then one authors head. You had a couple verses that were seprate, odd's of it being the same author arer slim unless you know for sure how the patch work went.

Apperently its a little deeper then just the 4 authors and 1 redactor. Ive seen scholars use the term patchwork of authors and sources all from different times.

As you know, It has never been a start to finish 1 piece tale like the 2 sumerian versions of the flood.

with the sumerian adamu coming from dirt you dont have a clue how much influence there really is from that pagan culture that was handed down orally.
 
Adam & Eve did know that taking of that knowledge was wrong.

Gen 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen. 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

So as you can see, Eve knew she was wrong and purposely disobeyed Gog. So the punishment was just.

John 8:32
thecomforter.info
 

gnostic

The Lost One
RaimThunder said:
Adam & Eve did know that taking of that knowledge was wrong.

If they know if it was good or bad, BEFORE they ate the fruit, then how could they possibly know what they did were wrong?
 

jojo50

Member
I'm not sure if this has been addressed before. Didn't spot anything like this while I was skimming through.If Adam and Eve had no knowledge of the concepts of good and evil, they had no way to know that disobeying God and eating the forbidden fruit was actually wrong. They didn't obtain that knowledge until after their transgression. So, was it actually fair for them to be punished?

It was very fair, just like a child who is warned by his parent of the consequences for disobedience, so were they. Still out of the Garden, just like a loving parent Jehovah made sure they survived. Even though they now had to work to get what they needed. They understood it was wrong to disrespect God’s word. (Gen.2:16-18, And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die).

So they DID know it was a bad thing,which meant they understood good from bad. Jehovah didn’t leave them clueless as many wants to believe. You have to understand this,(many don’t seem to realize). It wasn’t like right after Jehovah laid down his law, they disobey him. Adam lived to be over 700 years old, No one knows how long they lived in Eden before the wicked angel decided to temp eve.

Also we don’t know when the wicked angel mustered up the courage to go against Jehovah. But we can see from the scriptures the wicked angel KNEW they understood God’s words and the consequences of their disobediences. The wicked angel knew just what to do,…lie, in order to make them disobey Jehovahs laws (Gen.3:1-6, Now the serpent was more subtil…). God doesn’t punish anyone just for the heck of it. peace! 
 

esmith

Veteran Member
Also we don’t know when the wicked angel mustered up the courage to go against Jehovah. But we can see from the scriptures the wicked angel KNEW they understood God’s words and the consequences of their disobediences. The wicked angel knew just what to do,…lie, in order to make them disobey Jehovahs laws (Gen.3:1-6, Now the serpent was more subtil…). God doesn’t punish anyone just for the heck of it. peace![/i] 

Really do not understand where you get the idea that the snake was Satan, a wicked angel or whatever. The snake was "more shrewd than all the living-things of the field". The concept of "Satan" was a late developing concept in Jewish theology which continued on into Christianity.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Though it be metaphorical...that tree of life eternal...
would you then say the first man to speak with God, and to walk in God's
presence was not Adam?

So now I find it needful to ask....
do you think Chapter Two of Genesis is altogether fictional?
Adam did not walk with God?


For your first question, no one can speak with God but through a dream or vision. Read Numbers 12:6. Now, to walk in God's presence, only in a spiritual manner, as Jesus imself stated in John 4:24.

Regarding the second question, there is a great difference between fictional and allegorical. The whole account of Creation in Genesis is an allegory, which must be interpreted metaphorically, as God is a Spirit and Incorporeal at that.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Adam & Eve did know that taking of that knowledge was wrong.

Gen 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen. 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

So as you can see, Eve knew she was wrong and purposely disobeyed Gog. So the punishment was just.

John 8:32
thecomforter.info


The Double Allegory of Creation


There are three stages for the account of Creation in Genesis: Two allegories and the Reality which the allegories point to: Man as the theme of Creation.


The first allegory in the Genesis account of Creation is in the letter of the account, and here abide the masses of religious people for taking the account at its face value. I mean, Adam and Eve in the Garden being provided by God with all their needs, being told what's allowed and forbidden in the Garden, being misled by the serpent into eating of a forbidden tree, and eventually being punished with different kinds of punishments respectively on all three of them, etc. Just literally as it is written.

The second allegory has still the same elements and God is still figured anthropomorphically, but the meaning of the actions and behaviour depicts a more logical version of what happened in the Garden. And here abide those who can think more logically, abbeit not in the archtype level of Reality. In this phase of the account of Creation in Genesis, after God created Adam and Eve, He granted them with freewill and expected to be served and sought after by them, but the thing was not working. God would have to search for them and that was not the right method. They would have to become proficient and leave the Garden in order to seek for God in terms of growing in knowledge out in the greater world.

Then, among the many fruit trees in the Garden, God planted a most beautiful of all the trees with fruits much more alluring, and right in the middle of the Garden, so that it would easily call their attention. It was the tree of knowledge. But it was not working. Then, God told them that the fruit of that tree was forbidden under penalty of death, but just in the hope that the warning would make them curious and go for it. It was not working either.

Nex, God doubled in Eve the emotion of curiosity so that she would go for it and entice Adam into eating of that tree. However, God had underestimated Eve's emotion of love. She had fallen in love with her man and she would never risk loosing him for no stupid fruit even if it looked the most appetitizing of all. Obviously, it didn't work.

The next step was to use the services of the serpent to persuade Eve that she had misunderstood the prohibition. That what would die in them was not themselves but their stupid innocence and naivete. Then, the serpent showed up on the very tree and somehow called for Eve's attention. As she approached, the dialogue started. To instigate the conversation, the serpent started with a question which surely would require an explanation. "Is it that you guys cannot eat from the trees in the Garden?" Bingo! Eve was locked in. The serpent got Eve to talk by explaining that only from the tree of knowledge, they were forbidden. "Why?" the serpent retortted. "Because we would die," she said. "Nonsense!" said the serpent. "You have misunderstood the whole thing. God meant to say that you two will become like gods, knowing good from evil."

Now, imagine, Eve must have thought, her man like a god! Without much ado, Eve reached for the fruit, ate it and told Adam that it was okay. Adam thought for a second and came to the conclusion that even if it was not okay, he would rather die with her beloved who had just enjoyed half of a fruit. Then he ate the other half and went on eating more. The serpent was right. They did not die. And the first knowledge they acquired was of how much they did not know. I mean, that they were naked, completely destitute of knowledge.

It didn't take too long for God to appear in the Garden to collect the fruit of His enterprise. It had finally happened what He wanted without His having to do anything against man's freewill. Then, He formally defined some punishments to everyone according to their nature anyway, and got them out of the Garden into the greater world out there, so that they would grow in knowledge by seeking for God, which would be the right method.

Now, the third phase or Reality, the account of Creation is supposed to point to. I mean, the Humanistic approach, which is the purpose of the double allegory. The riddle points to the three phases in the development of man: Childhood, adulthood, and old age. Here, only the enlightened with Philosophical training dwells. I mean, the Theist who is big enough not to let him or herself be intoxicated by blind faith. In this class we can find also Atheists and Agnostics but under the subclass of sarchasm for not being able to harmonize enlightenment with the conception of God free of anthropomorphism.

Childhood is understood by that phase in the Garden when God would have to provide man with everything. That's the phase when we are dependent on our parents or on others for all our needs. That's the phase of walking on our four legs.

Adulthood is applied to that time when man ate of the tree of knowledge and became conscious of himself. That's when we actually become an adult and responsible for our own actions. I mean, when we can stand on our own two legs, so to speak.

Regarding the phase of old age, the allegory of Creation does not go into details, but it's when we become dependent again on others, especailly our children to take care of us. I mean, the phase of walking on two legs and a cane.


Ben
 
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