Was it just a Coincidece? What are the odds?

[TransmutingSoul]

Nope, no correlation. You are now just reinterpreting works to match history. People can do that with all sorts of religious works.

You might want to check out the RationalWiki article on Biblical prophecies. For the same reason that biblical prophecies fail, so do the prophecies of your religion.

It is history that the Bab made a declaration on the eve of May 23rd 1844.

The graph posted shows the increase in technology from the date of the Telegraph Message that was sent on May the 24th 1844 the day after that declaration.

That is history it needs no reinterpreting.

It is obvious, knowledge was increased after the Declaration of the Bab.

So no we can look at other Biblical Prophecies in light of that declaration in Shiraz, it it feasible that Persia would play a role in fulfilling Prophecy?

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you mean the declaration, that he was the promise of the Bible?

If so, Yes it was the First time the Bab made that declaration.

This is also significant as it is recorded the Declaration was dependent on the first Disciple finding the Bab.

This process began back at the start of the 1800's

The requirement that had already been set was that 18 disciples had to find the Bab, independently before the declaration could be made known. The first Beleiver was Mulla Husayn, he has left us that story, the 18th was Tahirih (Famous Persian Poetess), who never met the Bab in person, but met him in her dreams.

Regards Tony

How do you know that it was the first time that he made that declaration? You don't. You really have no clue. Many "prophecies" are written after the fact. The more likely story is that this is one such example.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is history that the Bab made a declaration on the eve of May 23rd 1844.

The graph posted shows the increase in technology from the date of the Telegraph Message that was sent on May the 24th 1844 the day after that declaration.

That is history it needs no reinterpreting.

It is obvious, knowledge was increased after the Declaration of the Bab.

So no we can look at other Biblical Prophecies in light of that declaration in Shiraz, it it feasible that Persia would play a role in fulfilling Prophecy?

Regards Tony

All you did was to cherry pick a point on that graph. It would look roughly the same for a whole range of dates. That is not evidence for your beliefs it is only cherry picking. And once again you would need to show that he never made that "prophecy" before then. How are you going to do that? If you can't you have nothing. In fact how was this event recorded? Where are the public records of it? Baha'i records would not count.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do not see any connection.

It is but one dot of the thousands needed to draw the bigger picture. So yes, not so easy to see the bigger picture when it is one dot.

America was destined to be the Nation that would embrace the Baha'i Faith and become responsible for spreading it around the world. That is all part of the bigger picture.

So prior to the Bab's declaration, America was already being prepared, it is like predawn when the light begins to show before the sun rises.

William Millar was headline news, he had predicted 1844 as the return of Jesus Christ, America was prepared. Then on the eve of May23rd 1844 that Declaration was made, the very next day Samuel Morse sent the first telegraph Message "What has God Wrought". The prediction of William Miller was correct, it happened and it was announced by Telegraph.

The issue is, they are 3 dots of the bugger picture.

There are thousands more. This is what the OP is about. Once we start gathering the dots into the bigger picture, what is the chance the declaration was just a coincidence?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How do you know that it was the first time that he made that declaration? You don't. You really have no clue. Many "prophecies" are written after the fact. The more likely story is that this is one such example.

It is recorded in history, so yes it is known that was the first time he made that declaration to the first Disciple.

The first public declaration resulted in the trial of the Bab (just as Jesus before him), 6 years of persecution and death by firing squad, which has another truly amazing story to be told.

That public declaration is also another truly amazing story. It was done at the Kaaba, the most Holy site of Islam in front of all the Pilgrims in Mecca. Who else but God could do such a thing? What power, what dominion has God over men!

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All you did was to cherry pick a point on that graph. It would look roughly the same for a whole range of dates. That is not evidence for your beliefs it is only cherry picking. And once again you would need to show that he never made that "prophecy" before then. How are you going to do that? If you can't you have nothing. In fact how was this event recorded? Where are the public records of it? Baha'i records would not count.

Luckily, there is a great harvest of cherries, a veritable feast indeed.

Actually I have no need to prove anything. I am happy to be silent.

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I was reflecting on how the Baha'i Faith started and had the thought that it raised a very compelling question. From the science perspective it would be the maths.

So the scenario is this.

The Bab declared on the evening of May 23rd 1844. The purpose of the Message of the Bab was to prepare humanity for "One Whom God would make Manifest".

On that same evening was born a male child that was destined to bury the remains of the Bab on Mount Carmel and head the faith started by the Bab.

The child was Abdul'baha, the son of Baha’u’llah, who in 1863 declared he was the one the Bab intended.

Also on the day that dawned after the evening of May 23rd 1844, in America, Samuel Morse had built a telegraph system from Washington, D.C., to Baltimore and on May 24, 1844, the first message was sent, “What hath God wrought?”

So, that is the most amazing coincidences, what would be the mathematical probability of such coincidences, that they are mere coincidences and not part of a intelligent plan?

View attachment 60231

Regards Tony

The probability is quite high. Probably 100%.

Keep in mind that the test isn't "what are the odds that these two precise events would happen on the same day (plus one, for reasons)?"

The test is "what are the odds that the Bab would do anything that I consider meaningful and can be related - by any pattern that I consider significant - to any event I consider meaningful?"

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All you did was to cherry pick a point on that graph. It would look roughly the same for a whole range of dates. T

Well that just supports that since the mid 1800's progress has been exponential.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The test is "what are the odds that the Bab would do anything that I consider meaningful and can be related - by any pattern that I consider significant - to any event I consider meaningful?"

If we look at it that way, would that not only be our own test? As would that not suggest we know how this world operates?

Who are we to know what is significant in this world?

Would not the test, come back to our ability to see the significance in that Declaration. Our willingness to investigate the relationship of that Declaration with other events taking place around the world, before, during and after that Declaration?

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is recorded in history, so yes it is known that was the first time he made that declaration to the first Disciple.

The first public declaration resulted in the trial of the Bab (just as Jesus before him), 6 years of persecution and death by firing squad, which has another truly amazing story to be told.

That public declaration is also another truly amazing story. It was done at the Kaaba, the most Holy site of Islam in front of all the Pilgrims in Mecca. Who else but God could do such a thing? What power, what dominion has God over men!

Regards Tony

Prove it. If you can't your claim is worthless. I could just as well say "It is not recorded in history" would that prove that he did not say it? You need more than empty claims if you wish to use that as evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well that just supports that since the mid 1800's progress has been exponential.

Regards Tony

Tony, it has always been exponential. Now you are just using a term that you do not understand.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Luckily, there is a great harvest of cherries, a veritable feast indeed.

Actually I have no need to prove anything. I am happy to be silent.

Regards Tony

Yes, and they are all worthless in a debate. They are not evidence. Other religions have just as many or more. That does not make those religions true either.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Also on the day that dawned after the evening of May 23rd 1844, in America, Samuel Morse had built a telegraph system from Washington, D.C., to Baltimore and on May 24, 1844, the first message was sent, “What hath God wrought?”

Did you realize that this isn't actually true?

What you're describing is Morse's demonstration for the Senate, but it wasn't the system's first message. My quick googling tells me that Morse was doing successful large-scale tests from May 1 on.

... and why the focus on Morse's telegraph? There were other long-distance telegraph systems operating in Europe years earlier.

I mean, I know the answer: the other telegraphs aren't convenient for the narrative you're trying to sell, but I'm still interested to hear your post-hoc rationalization.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony, it has always been exponential. Now you are just using a term that you do not understand.

There was the Christian dark ages, that was not a time when knowledge increased.

Just an example, another graph.

No matter what you look at, the last 200 years has seen knowledge increase rapidly.

There were people back in the 1800's that were offering that mankind had reached the peak of technology. It is very easy in this age to not appreciate that people back in the 1800' has absolutely no idea what lay ahead, except those that Gave God's Message. Even as we have no idea what it will be like in 200 to 500 years, except, I would offer, we will be exploring strange new worlds, traversing time and space easily and quickly.

That is prophecy.

Regards Tony

 

[Subduction Zone]

There was the Christian dark ages, that was not a time when knowledge increased.

Just an example, another graph.

View attachment 62747

No matter what you look at, the last 200 years has seen knowledge increase rapidly.

There were people back in the 1800's that were offering that mankind had reached the peak of technology. It is very easy in this age to not appreciate that people back in the 1800' has absolutely no idea what lay ahead, except those that Gave God's Message. Even as we have no idea what it will be like in 200 to 500 years, except, I would offer, we will be exploring strange new worlds, traversing time and space easily and quickly.

That is prophecy.

Regards Tony

I am sorry but you simply do not know what the word exponential means. Especially, you do not know what it means when applied to graphs. Here is a simple question. In the following graph when is the growth exponential:

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Did you realize that this isn't actually true?

What you're describing is Morse's demonstration for the Senate, but it wasn't the system's first message. My quick googling tells me that Morse was doing successful large-scale tests from May 1 on.

... and why the focus on Morse's telegraph? There were other long-distance telegraph systems operating in Europe years earlier.

I mean, I know the answer: the other telegraphs aren't convenient for the narrative you're trying to sell, but I'm still interested to hear your post-hoc rationalization.

Like all great events there is always a dawn before the event. The sun rising each day is an example how there is light before the sun.

Same with the Bab, there was over 40 years of pre-dawn before the Sun of the Bab dawned on the Evening of May23rd 1844.

Likewise the telegraph when through the dawn phase until it reached the day of it sailing on May 24th 1844.

Dawn of the Telegraph

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I am sorry but you simply do not know what the word exponential means. Especially, you do not know what it means when applied to graphs. Here is a simple question. In the following graph when is the growth exponential:

Well use the right word, but it is obvious the line bends upwards rapidly.

For gosh sake!

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Like all great events there is always a dawn before the event. The sun rising each day is an example how there is light before the sun.

Same with the Bab, there was over 40 years of pre-dawn before the Sun of the Bab dawned on the Evening of May23rd 1844.

Likewise the telegraph when through the dawn phase until it reached the day of it sailing on May 24th 1844.

Dawn of the Telegraph

Regards Tony

I said I was interested to hear your rationalization, but I wasn't expecting anything as... rectally sourced as this.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well use the right word, but it is obvious the line bends upwards rapidly.

For gosh sake!

Regards Tony

I will take that as a dodge. So you had no clue when you posted your first graph, Which means that it is not evidence for your beliefs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I said I was interested to hear your rationalization, but I wasn't expecting anything as... rectally sourced as this.

I might have to steal that term in the future.