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Was it just a Coincidece? What are the odds?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I am sorry but you simply do not know what the word exponential means. Especially, you do not know what it means when applied to graphs. Here is a simple question. In the following graph when is the growth exponential:

plot-formula.mpl
It's like that joke about the person who claims to be leading the parade because he jumped out and started marching in front of everyone, except the Bab jumped out behind the parade and followed it.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Well that just supports that since the mid 1800's progress has been exponential.

Regards Tony


-In 2016 the Yearbook of International Religious Demography 2016 noted just over 7.8 million Baháʼís in the world in 2015, having grown at an overall rate of 2.79% across the century 1910 to 2010.

-Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world.[3] In 1990, 1.1 billion people were Muslims, while in 2010, 1.6 billion people were Muslims.[3
Islam is expected to be the world's largest religion by the year 2075.


-The church estimates that there are 16.6m Mormons around the world, a 50% increase since 2000. Matt Martinich, an independent demographer who runs a blog devoted to the church's growth, estimates that baptisms of American converts may now account for only 20% of worldwide baptisms.Jan 8, 2022

According to a 2011 Pew Research Center survey, there are 2.2 billion Christians around the world in 2010,[48] up from about 600 million in 1910.[48] And according to a 2012 Pew Research Center survey, within the next four decades, Christians will remain the world's largest religion; if current trends continue, by 2050 the number of Christians will reach 2.9 billion (or 31.4%).[50] According to a 2017 Pew Research Center survey, by 2060 Christians will remain the world's largest religion; and the number of Christians will reach 3.05 billion (or 31.8%).[
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I was reflecting on how the Baha'i Faith started and had the thought that it raised a very compelling question. From the science perspective it would be the maths.

So the scenario is this.

The Bab declared on the evening of May 23rd 1844. The purpose of the Message of the Bab was to prepare humanity for "One Whom God would make Manifest".

On that same evening was born a male child that was destined to bury the remains of the Bab on Mount Carmel and head the faith started by the Bab.

The child was Abdul'baha, the son of Baha’u’llah, who in 1863 declared he was the one the Bab intended.

Also on the day that dawned after the evening of May 23rd 1844, in America, Samuel Morse had built a telegraph system from Washington, D.C., to Baltimore and on May 24, 1844, the first message was sent, “What hath God wrought?

So, that is the most amazing coincidences, what would be the mathematical probability of such coincidences, that they are mere coincidences and not part of a intelligent plan?

Sorry, but I have never found numerology to be persuasive, and using false equivalence don’t help your argument.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
-In 2016 the Yearbook of International Religious Demography 2016 noted just over 7.8 million Baháʼís in the world in 2015, having grown at an overall rate of 2.79% across the century 1910 to 2010.

-Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the world.[3] In 1990, 1.1 billion people were Muslims, while in 2010, 1.6 billion people were Muslims.[3
Islam is expected to be the world's largest religion by the year 2075.


-The church estimates that there are 16.6m Mormons around the world, a 50% increase since 2000. Matt Martinich, an independent demographer who runs a blog devoted to the church's growth, estimates that baptisms of American converts may now account for only 20% of worldwide baptisms.Jan 8, 2022

According to a 2011 Pew Research Center survey, there are 2.2 billion Christians around the world in 2010,[48] up from about 600 million in 1910.[48] And according to a 2012 Pew Research Center survey, within the next four decades, Christians will remain the world's largest religion; if current trends continue, by 2050 the number of Christians will reach 2.9 billion (or 31.4%).[50] According to a 2017 Pew Research Center survey, by 2060 Christians will remain the world's largest religion; and the number of Christians will reach 3.05 billion (or 31.8%).[

Was there a point to that? No human can predict 10 of years, let alone 100 of years ahead.

God knows and has.

There was most likely the same things said in the first couple of centuries about Christianity and Islam.

Regards Tony
 

gnostic

The Lost One
One does not need numerology.

Probability factor maths will suffice.

That wasn't probability.

If you did basic maths, you would know that probability required statistics, and statistics would provide the necessary data of "occurrences".

If you have sufficient number (frequency) of occurrence, you could predict the "probable" outcome of it occurring again. The higher the frequency, the better you have into coming to decision or be able to predict what might occur again.

Those with least or zero frequency of occurrence, the less probable of occurring again.

What you are doing, have nothing to do with probability. What you are doing is no better than numerology or magic numbers, astrology/horoscope, palm reading, magic crystal, etc.

Just because Bab made declaration on the same date of invention of the telegram means nothing more than they occur on the same date.

You are just making assumptions of two things completely unrelated, that's false equivalence. You are just making false assumption about them being related, and that's your business.

All I see, is you waving your arms to gain attention about your religion...and in the case of Samuel Moorse and the telegram system, unwarranted attention to something so frivilous.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Was there a point to that? No human can predict 10 of years, let alone 100 of years ahead.

Are you sure about that?

People have been observing the sky for millennia, and it is possible to see patterns of the sun or moon orbit, that you could predict solar eclipses or lunar eclipse, of both partial or full eclipses too, for the next 10 years and even all the way to 100 years, with degree of precisions. You just need some patience and grasp of astronomical maths and some observations of the Earth's rotation and Earth orbits around the sun plus the moon's orbits around Earth.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
All I see, is you waving your arms to gain attention about your religion...and in the case of Samuel Moorse and the telegram system, unwarranted attention to something so frivilous.

OK I am happy for you to see that waving as a goodbye.

Regards Tony
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Was there a point to that? No human can predict 10 of years, let alone 100 of years ahead.

God knows and has.

There was most likely the same things said in the first couple of centuries about Christianity and Islam.

Regards Tony

Yes it's shows Bahai isn't growing fast at all.

We can and do predict growth rates of religions. Especially when they are based on current trends?

"God" so far is just fiction. Funny you say God can make 100 years of predictions when all prophecies are super vague and usually completely wrong. Where does the Bahai scripture say in "100 years" and give an accurate description of the world with specific names and details?

Christianity in Rome at least was under 10% by 3 A.D. but it got a push from Constantine who needed it to help unify Rome.

But I don't know exactly what you mean about what was said about Christianity and Islam in the first few centuries?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Yes it's shows Bahai isn't growing fast at all.

But I don't know exactly what you mean about what was said about Christianity and Islam in the first few centuries?

The first quote is what I was offering. They too would have been seen as not growing fast..

The Baha'i Faith was the 2nd most widespread religion only 2nd to Christianity in just over 100 years.

That is a reason it also grows at a slower pace to start with, as Baha'i are spread thinly, it takes a while for the seeds that are planted to grow. But grow they do and as soon as they grow, the forest can then be seen.

Regards Tony
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The first quote is what I was offering. They too would have been seen as not growing fast..

The Baha'i Faith was the 2nd most widespread religion only 2nd to Christianity in just over 100 years.

That is a reason it also grows at a slower pace to start with, as Baha'i are spread thinly, it takes a while for the seeds that are planted to grow. But grow they do and as soon as they grow, the forest can then be seen.

Regards Tony


That cannot be true because scholar Richard Carrier calculated Mormonism grew at a similar rate that Christianity grew at first.
The Roswell myth grew even faster than that.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
That cannot be true because scholar Richard Carrier calculated Mormonism grew at a similar rate that Christianity grew at first.
The Roswell myth grew even faster than that.

The Britannica Book of the Year (1992–present) provides the following information:
  • The Bahá'í Faith is the second most widespread of the world's independent religions in terms of the number of countries where adherents live
  • It is established in 247 countries and territories throughout the world
  • Its members represent over 2,100 ethnic, racial, and tribal groups
  • It boasts approximately seven million adherents worldwide [2005].
  • Bahá'í scriptures have been translated into over eight hundred languages.
Baha'i Faith - New World Encyclopedia

Regards Tony
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The Britannica Book of the Year (1992–present) provides the following information:
  • The Bahá'í Faith is the second most widespread of the world's independent religions in terms of the number of countries where adherents live
  • It is established in 247 countries and territories throughout the world
  • Its members represent over 2,100 ethnic, racial, and tribal groups
  • It boasts approximately seven million adherents worldwide [2005].
  • Bahá'í scriptures have been translated into over eight hundred languages.
Baha'i Faith - New World Encyclopedia

Regards Tony

None of those facts answer to the quote you are responding to?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
None of those facts answer to the quote you are responding to?

It indicates as per Prophecy, that the seeds of the return of Christ are now planted in all Nations. Every eye shall see the Forrest and not only a few trees, when the clouds dissipate, when the harvest comes.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 13 gives all that we need to know about how Faith is sown and grows.

Regards Tony
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
It indicates as per Prophecy, that the seeds of the return of Christ are now planted in all Nations. Every eye shall see the Forrest and not only a few trees, when the clouds dissipate, when the harvest comes.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 13 gives all that we need to know about how Faith is sown and grows.

Regards Tony


Oh well than Bahai is definitely telling tall tales if you are expecting a fictional demigod to show up?
Matthew is a creative re-interpretation of Mark.
"Matthew, Mark and Luke are called the synoptic gospels because they share many stories (the technical term is pericopes), sometimes even identical wording; finding an explanation for their similarities, and also their differences, is known as the synoptic problem,[56] and most scholars believe that the best solution to the problem is that Mark was the first gospel to be written and served as the source for the other two[57] - alternative theories exist, but create more problems than they solve.[58]"
Mitchell Reddish


Revelation is a type of literature taken from the Persians. The general story was already made up by a Persian writer and the Hebrews were exposed to this during the Persian period. The NT ended up re-writing the myth. This is all fantasy.


Revelations


but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.

Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which

there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).


Mary Boyce
 
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