Was Jesus actually crucified?

[Muffled]

Sorry, they were never mentioned. But the life of Sister Maria is well known. Things like...she only went to school for a couple of months when she was six years old. Yet, she penned 14 books during her life. The authorities at the convent knew she was different and gave her a private room. The other nuns were burning with curiosity and carved a little peep hole in her door to see what she was doing in there. When they looked, they saw her floating in the air. So full of gossip and loose lips, they invited just about the entire town - at one time or another - to watch her float. One of the nuns even discovered that if she blew hard, she could move the floating nun around a bit.

Eventually she told Fr. Benevides everything. How when she was young she nearly died. But she didn't and woke with an overpowering need to save the American indians she had heard so much about from priest who had been serving in New Spain. She told the investigators that lost in prayer and sacred song, that she simply materialized to the indians. Kind of like "beam me up Scotty" but with a twist. In Star Wars when they beamed down, they 100% went down. But with Sister Maria, although she "beamed down"- in fact, she was still in her room in Spain. So more like Jake Sully in Avatar, if you get my drift. The point is, she claimed that she had visited the indians over 500 times. The rosary beads, she said she had taken from the convent. The very same rosary beads that Fr. Benevides had with him.

There is a long history of this "ability" inside the Catholic church. This is called, bilocation: when a person can be in 2 places at the same time. Many examples of this exist. The rosary beads thus became an artifact that for me lifted this story out from fable and myth into a realm of something more believable. She accurately described to Fr. Benevides things that only if she had been there could she have known...such as an indian with one eye.

Obviously this is only possible through time travel because a body can't be in two places at the same time. Theoretically this can be done in such a way that it appears the person never left. I suppose it would be possible for God to create a replica that her astral projection (spirit) could enter but that seems more bizarre than time travel.

 

[Muffled]

Our belief, we Muslims, is that Jesus peace and blessing be upon him wasn't crusified.

In the Quran the Almighty God Has said : And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's massenger -they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who desagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain. (157) But Allah took him up to Himself. Allah was aver Mighty, Wise. (158)
(verse 157-158 ) ( Chapter 4)

The Bible says that Jesus was crucified. That either means the Qu'ran is wrong about it or there is another explanation. I believe there is another explanation.

 

[logician]

I recently discovered a Catholic history dating back to around 1600 that strongly suggest to me that Jesus Christ was never even in the hands of his Roman tormentors, what to speak of being crucified. I wonder if this is something that anyone would even be interested in discussing.

Actually, there is no coherent evidence that a man name Jesus that fit the stories of the NT ever existed. Also, there is no record of the passion, i.e. the story of Jeus being crucifed,Pilate, and all that. It would seem that if Jesus preached to the multitudes, and did all sorts of miracles, some contemporary historion would have taken note, but such was not the case.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Actually, there is no coherent evidence that a man name Jesus that fit the stories of the NT ever existed. Also, there is no record of the passion, i.e. the story of Jeus being crucifed,Pilate, and all that. It would seem that if Jesus preached to the multitudes, and did all sorts of miracles, some contemporary historion would have taken note, but such was not the case.

It truly is odd that you are obstinately illogical when it comes to this point.

There must be a few good reasons why almost every historian affirms the historicity of Jesus -- even though the sources are fragmentary and intertwined in myth and legend.

First, the historian knows that all of the historical information concerning the historical Jesus is in the New Testament writings, and in short Jesus was a failed Messiah.

No Roman historian wrote a history of failed Jewish Messiahs, and apparently neither did Philo and Josephus....

Obviously none of this matters to you. You can continue to point out something that is completely insignificant and come to completely unrelated conclusions. One has to wonder if you think that the ancient historians left us a comprehensive record of every person, city, and event of the ancient world even if it became significant long after its occurance.

After all, if it's not in the ancient historians, it did not exist.

 

[wayward_teen]

If you want to be childish and attack my faith rather than address the topic, you can do it on a thread created for that purpose.

I wasn't attacking your faith, just your manner of communication and your overall online countenance.

I was watching the TV last year and this guy was talking about being in Pakistan [a Muslim country] and sitting in a bar, noticed beer bottles with the label, "Mary Beer." He thought this very odd and asked about it. He was told that the Mother of Jesus was buried nearby. The original grave site was knocked down by British soldiers making room for their tents, long ago. Local people gathered up the stones and made a new shrine, which this man on the TV filmed and I saw it. He discovered the legend of Jesus bringing Mary to Pakistan [not called Pakistan way back then] where she died. And then Jesus continued and the TV program then showed where the tomb of Jesus is today located. In Nepal, I think.

I am not saying that the Romans didn't crucify Jesus, I am simply saying that when you bring the phenomenon of bi-location into the equation and what happened to Sister Maria of Agreda and the American Indians and others, it can be just a logical to suggest that the "Jesus" the Romans soldiers had in their grasp was in fact only a "double" of sorts, and that the real Jesus was never harmed. Come to think of it, in the Ramayana, Lord Rama's wife is kidnapped by Ravana and the book speaks about how "the Sita" that he was tormenting was not the real Sita. So there is a tradition of this kind of thing [bi-location] in many cultures. In fact, many cornerstones of the Christian faith give testament to bi-location. So to say it doesn't exist is to slam many of the founders of Christianity. At least that is how I look at it.

Hmm. I don't know if I would say that Jesus surviving crucifixion follows "logically", but I suppose anything's possible. I don't know very much about bilocation, so I'm not on any authority to confirm or deny the possibility, though I don't think it's very likely.

If Jesus was never killed, then why didn't he continue his ministry? Why did he resign from teaching his disciples? Or, are you saying that he was never really resurrected, but just came out of hiding?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I wasn't attacking your faith, just your manner of communication and your overall online countenance.

I see. Just as if you replaced "Christian" with "black person" it wouldn't be racist.

Any other personal exclusions we should know about?

 

[wayward_teen]

I see. Just as if you replaced "Christian" with "black person" it wouldn't be racist.

Any other personal exclusions we should know about?

Aren't Christians supposed to be kind and compassionate? Wouldn't Jesus have treated people with respect, instead of bashing them and making fun of them?

You certainly aren't writing like Jesus would, so from my point of view you aren't being a very good Christian.

"Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor."
Romans 12:10

I don't think all Christians are sarcastic and harsh when they post responses, just you. This is a *you* thing, not a "Christians" thing. I'm not attacking anybody's religion or race, just you as a person.

If you're going to be religious, then live what you believe.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Aren't Christians supposed to be kind and compassionate? Wouldn't Jesus have treated people with respect, instead of bashing them and making fun of them?

You certainly aren't writing like Jesus would, so from my point of view you aren't being a very good Christian.

"Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor."
Romans 12:10

I don't think all Christians are sarcastic and harsh when they post responses, just you. This is a *you* thing, not a "Christians" thing. I'm not attacking anybody's religion or race, just you as a person.

If you're going to be religious, then live what you believe.

Like I said, you have to tell me what I believe in order to make a judgment like that. And, if you want to be childish, you can do it on another thread.

Stop polluting this one.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

If you're going to be religious, then live what you believe.

I have a thread where you can teach me how. Apparently I have no clue.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...tell-angellous-how-christian.html#post2558223

 

[Mohamed]

The Bible says that Jesus was crucified. That either means the Qu'ran is wrong about it or there is another explanation. I believe there is another explanation.

who recieved the bible and who wrote it,and why there are many bibles?
are all bibles tells that he was crucified?

many questions ,sorry

 

[rsd]

Hmm. I don't know if I would say that Jesus surviving crucifixion follows "logically", but I suppose anything's possible. I don't know very much about bilocation, so I'm not on any authority to confirm or deny the possibility, though I don't think it's very likely.

If Jesus was never killed, then why didn't he continue his ministry? Why did he resign from teaching his disciples? Or, are you saying that he was never really resurrected, but just came out of hiding?

First of all, since prayer is 100% in the realm of the super natural ...saints that spent their life absorbed in prayer and service to God were in touch with something that most of us cannot even relate to. They tell us to pray. Jesus says to pray all the time. But how many of us do that? The point is that the super natural is not "logical." Prayer places you in a spiritual dimension that is not of this world, not of "the logic" that makes sense to us. So you have to be careful when you say that the things that these saints experienced are not logical. Of course they're not. In a way, this is the beauty of spirituality.

Granted, bi-location seems, not very likely. But my God, the list of things that the Saints and Scriptures describe that also seem unlikely is very long. Remember, with God all things are possible.

If Jesus was never killed, then why didn't he continue his ministry? HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THAT HE DIDN'T CONTINUE? Why did he resign from teaching his disciples? I DON'T SEE HOW YOU COME TO THIS CONCLUSION, EITHER. Or, are you saying that he was never really resurrected, but just came out of hiding? AS FAR AS THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS, DID HE APPEAR AFTER THE SO CALLED CRUCIFIXION? I TEND TO THINK SO, BUT WHO CAN SAY FOR SURE? ODD THAT YOU SAY, "OUT OF HIDING." I DON'T THINK JESUS HAD TO HIDE FROM ANYONE.

 

[logician]

It truly is odd that you are obstinately illogical when it comes to this point.

There must be a few good reasons why almost every historian affirms the historicity of Jesus -- even though the sources are fragmentary and intertwined in myth and legend.

First, the historian knows that all of the historical information concerning the historical Jesus is in the New Testament writings, and in short Jesus was a failed Messiah.

No Roman historian wrote a history of failed Jewish Messiahs, and apparently neither did Philo and Josephus....

Obviously none of this matters to you. You can continue to point out something that is completely insignificant and come to completely unrelated conclusions. One has to wonder if you think that the ancient historians left us a comprehensive record of every person, city, and event of the ancient world even if it became significant long after its occurance.

After all, if it's not in the ancient historians, it did not exist.

It's actually more strange that you obstinantly defend the indefensible. No hard evidence for the historicity of a biblical Jesus is just that. The NT is a collection of stories, not a recording of history. This is obvious from how the stories are told, and the bias of each story teller, creating many contradictions and impossibilities.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

It's actually more strange that you obstinantly defend the indefensible. No hard evidence for the historicity of a biblical Jesus is just that. The NT is a collection of stories, not a recording of history. This is obvious from how the stories are told, and the bias of each story teller, creating many contradictions and impossibilities.

Listening to historians is better than teaching them.

You learn more.

 

[rsd]

Obviously this is only possible through time travel because a body can't be in two places at the same time. Theoretically this can be done in such a way that it appears the person never left. I suppose it would be possible for God to create a replica that her astral projection (spirit) could enter but that seems more bizarre than time travel.

Not sure why you start with the word, "obviously." You say that a body cannot be in two places at the same time. But this fact, that you state, is contrary to the events surrounding Sister Maria's bi-locating. She WAS in Agreda, Spain ...but at the same instant, she was in Texas. And there are many other examples to support the idea that in the spiritual realm, unbelievable transformations CAN and HAVE taken place that are NOT logical and go against all science. As I see it the spiritual realm is bizarre compared to the average norm. This is where the wonder and excitement of religions becomes very attractive. But you have to have an open mind. And bizzare doesn't have to mean negative. The movie, "Avatar," was bizarre, but oh so wonderful.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

forexample,it's impossible that all that history and around 4 billion people talks about Jesus while he didn't exist at all,we may have many views about him but surely he existed....

I think it's quite possible that Jesus never existed, and I'm sure that no such man existed as is portrayed in the gospels.

But we can still talk about Jesus -- just as we can talk about Robin Hood or any other character about whom stories were written.

 

[rsd]

But we can still talk about Jesus -- just as we can talk about Robin Hood or any other character about whom stories were written.

Exactly!

 

[Mohamed]

I think it's quite possible that Jesus never existed, and I'm sure that no such man existed as is portrayed in the gospels.

But we can still talk about Jesus -- just as we can talk about Robin Hood or any other character about whom stories were written.

i'm not saying he is the portrayed one ofcourse he isn't
but no doubt he existed,or how come this story delivered?
every story has origine,what is the origine then??
you can't deny he has existed without telling the origine of the fake story

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Listening to historians is better than teaching them.

You learn more.

I think we learn even more by arguing with them, or by listening to them argue among themselves.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

i'm not saying he is the portrayed one ofcourse he isn't
but no doubt he existed,or how come this story delivered?
every story has origine,what is the origine then??
you can't deny he has existed without telling the origine of the fake story

I neither deny nor affirm that Jesus existed. How could I know a thing like that?

But I do have a theory about it. I think that a guy, probably a preacher, existed maybe 50-100 years prior to the Jesus Story, in the area of Jerusalem, and that he served as the inspiration for the gospel Jesus.

If I'm right, does that mean that Jesus existed -- or that Jesus didn't really exist?

Beats me. The question doesn't even make good sense to me.

But back to the OP: I'm pretty sure that 'Jesus' was not crucified any later than 10 AD in Jerusalem. If he had been, Paul would have mentioned some details about it.

 

[Mohamed]

I neither deny nor affirm that Jesus existed. How could I know a thing like that?

But I do have a theory about it. I think that a guy, probably a preacher, existed maybe 50-100 years prior to the Jesus Story, in the area of Jerusalem, and that he served as the inspiration for the gospel Jesus.

If I'm right, does that mean that Jesus existed -- or that Jesus didn't really exist?

Beats me. The question doesn't even make good sense to me.

But back to the OP: I'm pretty sure that 'Jesus' was not crucified any later than 10 AD in Jerusalem. If he had been, Paul would have mentioned some details about it.

i just have a principle that evey strong religion has a source,a strong source
ofcourse the religion may change by time but the source must exist for any strong religion,just let somebody try to create a religion nowadays lol

according to islam,jesus wasn't crucified,see post 48