Was Jesus actually crucified?

[angellous_evangellous]

I think we learn even more by arguing with them, or by listening to them argue among themselves.

There's no basis for most of us to argue with a historian. You may as well be debating a heart surgeon about physiology -- only on the basis that we have a heart.

But yes, listening to them arguing amongst themselves is very useful.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

There's no basis for most of us to argue with a historian. You may as well be debating a heart surgeon about physiology -- only on the basis that we have a heart.

I've gotta disagree pretty stoutly with that. Historians deal with human psychology and how-the-world-really-works. So a perceptive, wise historian is worth a bunch more to me than a young, inexperienced historian -- or even an old historian whose take on the human condition seems out of touch with my own experiences of the world.

I read a good many bios and some straight history. When I do that, I listen to the mentality of the historian as much as to the facts. What is her attitude toward (historical) certainty, for example? What are her biases?

With human physiology, I think personal biases play a much smaller role.

So I have no problem arguing with historians, especially regarding events where the facts are widely-known and agreed upon between us.

How about a sociologist? Would you feel free to argue with a sociologist regarding various aspects of human society?

 

[rsd]

Hi - I haven't looked at this thread for awhile. If anyone is interested in this subject, I welcome you to read part 3 of this book: P3Ch1 There is no charge. If I were sent money I would promptly send it back. So the author (me) receives zero $.

Part 3 is not a long read. Part 3, ch1 is a 1 minute read. Trust me, this is not long. But I have taken 13 years to make it interesting. That's what the old English Pentecostal preacher, Smith Wiggelsworth would tell other pastors. "Don't pray for ten minutes and preach for one hour. Pray for one hour and preach for ten minutes." So I have tried to do this. Part three has taken me about 3 years to hammer out and you can read it all in way-less than 3 hours. Also, this is a religious thriller. Fiction. Like James A. Mitchener would write, if you get my drift. So it's all there. The bilocation stuff, the key facts taken from the material I studied, etc. I would be interested in what you think.

 

[sarnath]

I would strongly recommend that you read "The Power of Myth" by Campbell. The crucifixion story can be relevant whether or not it is true.

 

[Friend of Bill W]

I like to think of the Crucifixion story as the death and resurrection of the human spirit. If anyone has seen someone recover from their drug or alcohol addiction via a spiritual 12 Step program, you'll know exactly what I mean.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Yes He was. The Bible says so.

 

[fallingblood]

I neither deny nor affirm that Jesus existed. How could I know a thing like that?

But I do have a theory about it. I think that a guy, probably a preacher, existed maybe 50-100 years prior to the Jesus Story, in the area of Jerusalem, and that he served as the inspiration for the gospel Jesus.

If I'm right, does that mean that Jesus existed -- or that Jesus didn't really exist?

Beats me. The question doesn't even make good sense to me.

But back to the OP: I'm pretty sure that 'Jesus' was not crucified any later than 10 AD in Jerusalem. If he had been, Paul would have mentioned some details about it.

Paul does mention the crucifixion. There was no reason to go into more detail than he did. Most historians and writers from that time didn't got into much detail about the crucifixion.

 

[NeilPye]

Does it matter, ultimately?

I believe Jesus was crucified - and do not believe he literally rose again. God is not a magician performing tricks.

The Easter Story was wrapped around Jewish prophecies and expectations of the Jewish Messiah, and only in this fashion was the Jesus story able to survive through the oral tradition.

Whatever happened, Jesus' disciples turned from the despair of knowing their spiritual leader and deeply loved friend had died the way of a common criminal to be the most fervent people preaching Jesus' words and many of them were killed for preaching it.

The story of coming back to life after three days is simple an inaccurate translation of 'the God language' and ecstatic experiences into the human languages of that day. There was no literal resurrection.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The story of coming back to life after three days is simple an inaccurate translation of 'the God language' and ecstatic experiences into the human languages of that day. There was no literal resurrection.

Your "translation" is better?

... more than 2,000 years after the fact and removed from any sense of Scripture?

 

[NeilPye]

Your "translation" is better?

... more than 2,000 years after the fact and removed from any sense of Scripture?

Why is the literal translation better?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Why is the literal translation better?

I didn't say that a literal translation is better.

There's a lot going on in the interpretation of this text:

1) historicity = what actually happened

2) language = translation from Greek to English (perhaps Latin)

3) original theological meaning = the theology represented in the text

4) present theological meaning = hopefully some kind of balance of the above points

5) original social contexts = the cultural considerations that have bearing on the original meaning of the text

6) present social context = awareness of the original social context and its relationships with meaning for the cultural considerations of today

It seems to me that you've confused historicity and present social context // present theological meaning. So your interpretation doesn't really consider anything and reduces it to theological babble.

 

[kepha31]

My God, what a tough bunch of character here. You know, I joined the other day and I feel like I've been thrown into a den of lions. Oh well, onward... I think I will just tell everyone how this is is all connected to the crucifixion of Jesus, but it takes a little telling. In order to "get it" there are actually several events that need to covered. A. How it was that American Indians were taught by a Spanish Nun.

The story of Sister María Jesus de Ágreda can be found on this non-Catholic link: The Blue Nun, Mystical Missionary to the Indians

B. An execution by whipping-to-death of a Muslim Saint and how after a beating that lasted 7 times the maximum it ever took to kill someone by whipping...how this great saint could not be killed. In fact, he lived a long life.

Roman scourging was severe enough it was often fatal. You are assuming that whipping (in the case of your Muslem saint) and Roman scourging are the same things. Roman scourges were barbed that literally tore the flesh off a person.

C. Knowledge of important Catholic saints that shared with the Spanish nun, Sister Maria of Agreda, Spain certain gifts and

Lots of people claim to have certain gifts. Most of them are fakes. But many saints throughout history have exhibited extraordinary manifestations. They give witness to the Resurrection extended through time, among other things. This article on mystics and mysticism should clear the air: Fr. Hardon Archives - Visionaries and Visions

D. a Scriptural account of an ancient dance.

King David danced before the Ark of the Old Covenant. John the Baptist leaped in Elizabeths womb before Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.
2 Sam. 6:16 / Luke 1:41

After I digested all these things for myself, in a very logical way it became quite clear that Jesus was probably never crucified.

Historical fact=good hate propaganda=bad.

Rational proofs for the Resurrection of Jesus are available to the honest inquiror without the bible and without the Church.
EXPLAINING AWAY JESUS’ RESURESCTION (This Rock: August 1991)

 

[rsd]

The story of Sister María Jesus de Ágreda can be found on this non-Catholic link: The Blue Nun, Mystical Missionary to the Indians

Thanks for this. Just read it all. After reading what I consider the most authoritative account of her life, this piece was still interesting, but different. Got to have an open mind about all this. Thanks again. (re: Amazon.com: Maria of Agreda: Mystical Lady in Blue (9780826346445): Marilyn H. Fedewa: Books

Roman scourging was severe enough it was often fatal. You are assuming that whipping (in the case of your Muslem saint) and Roman scourging are the same things. Roman scourges were barbed that literally tore the flesh off a person.

All I can say is that that his beating was not with Roman scourges (barbed). Even so, the most robust prisoner never survived over three such beating - with wooded rods or canes. Haridas Thakura survived 21 beatings.

I'll look over the other two items you mentioned. Thank you for that.

You might enjoy just skipping over and reading Part 3 of my book, "Abandoned." This is where my story tells the story of Maria de Jesus as I gleaned it from my study of her. I was very careful to stick to what I had read about her (see above link). But understand, this is a novel and sure, I used common-sense imagination to make her story and my book interesting. Of course you are welcome to read the whole book from page one. Either way, all is free. Not for profit. But jumping to Part 3 would be OK. Either way, the book is not long so this won't take long read. Here is the link for Part 3:
P3Ch1

 

[fallingblood]

So basically this is all just to promote your book? I'm thinking that is what this has come to. Especially since you never had an interest in real discussion or debate.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Paul does mention the crucifixion. There was no reason to go into more detail than he did. Most historians and writers from that time didn't got into much detail about the crucifixion.

There were lots of reason for Paul to tell stories about the ministry of Jesus. Jesus was his Lord.

You don't talk about the things which most interest you?

 

[BruceDLimber]

>Was Jesus actually crucified?

Baha'is so stipulate.

Bruce

 

[rsd]

So basically this is all just to promote your book...since you never had an interest in real discussion or debate.

Well, I have posted 9 topics. Only in this one have I made any reference to my book, Abandoned. And what I have referenced has stayed on topic. But I beg you to pardon me. Now as far as promoting "my book" - what can I say? It is FREE. Free as in: send me some money and I will send it back to you. How many authors take 13 years to write something and then charge zero? This is the last book I will every write. Actually, many people send me correspondence and thank me for taking the time to organize, and for putting all the material down in one place. The book contains dozens and dozens of rare photographs; alone, well worth the hefty price to look at them. Again, whatever I have mentioned has stayed on topic.

Was Jesus crucified? Personally I do not believe so. Is there a believable record that Jesus was crucified. Personally I believe there is. Sounds like double talk. Exactly. This contradiction has given me a story to tell. Yeah, it is 100% fiction on the surface, but the book has a heartbeat and that is real.

 

[fallingblood]

There were lots of reason for Paul to tell stories about the ministry of Jesus. Jesus was his Lord.

You don't talk about the things which most interest you?

I think you need to reread what we were talking about. I was only talking about the resurrection and nothing more. There was no real reason for Paul to expand on the crucifixion of Jesus.

Even the ministry of Jesus, Paul had little reason to expand on. Paul was more interested in the post-resurrection Jesus, and that is what we see him cover in his letters (even though we can still find quotes, and details about Jesus).

 

[fallingblood]

Well, I have posted 9 topics. Only in this one have I made any reference to my book, Abandoned. And what I have referenced has stayed on topic. But I beg you to pardon me. Now as far as promoting "my book" - what can I say? It is FREE. Free as in: send me some money and I will send it back to you. How many authors take 13 years to write something and then charge zero? This is the last book I will every write. Actually, many people send me correspondence and thank me for taking the time to organize, and for putting all the material down in one place. The book contains dozens and dozens of rare photographs; alone, well worth the hefty price to look at them. Again, whatever I have mentioned has stayed on topic.

Was Jesus crucified? Personally I do not believe so. Is there a believable record that Jesus was crucified. Personally I believe there is. Sounds like double talk. Exactly. This contradiction has given me a story to tell. Yeah, it is 100% fiction on the surface, but the book has a heartbeat and that is real.

So that was a yes. As for how many authors would do what you are doing? There are quite a few. Especially since there can be quite a bit of gain done by doing so.

Really though, you haven't provided any reason not to think that Jesus was crucified. The vast majority of what you have posted has nothing to do with Jesus in the first place but deals with fantasy. Basically everything you have posted is nothing more than fiction that has included some historical figures that never were really well researched out. Add to that unsubstantiated claims, you really have nothing but promotion for your fiction book.

And really, it isn't double talk. What is being shown is delusion. You are willingly suspending logic and instead adopting fantasy as your reality.

 

[rsd]

Really though, you haven't provided any reason not to think that Jesus was crucified.

If you want to see ample reason why there is the possiblity, then read the book. But far more important is the living Jesus Christ. Let us all waken our love for Christ and be Holy as He asked us to be.