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Was Jesus an Historical Person?

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
OUTHOUSE............... question.......

Was the Galilee district a kind of 'no go' area for the authorities? Seen as a bad place to be?

I'm interested because Jesus definitely seemed to feel safer around the shoreline and general area.

Come to think of it (although you mostly seem to discount the nativity stories) Joseph avoided the Jerusalem area and circuited to Galilee on his return from Egypt. Further to that, earlier, could Joseph have legged it to Egypt because of a heavy tax bill that he could not pay?
What happened to those who could not pay their taxes? This Census business reads all wrong....... the Romans wanted taxes, bottom line, they surely would not move people around for just a census, more like a census and tax return. Was Joseph as poor as you reckon?

I've read through the the Gospels, and nearly every passage can fit with what you claim, that Jesus was calling for non-violent and passive non-co-operation with the invaders, and warning against the 'vichy' type priesthood who were clearly 'quisling' type '5th columnists'. Modern words for ancient traitors!
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
OUTHOUSE......

This 'poverty of the Galileans' angle could be wrong. I've been reading up on what others believe about the Galilean Fishermen. I have internet links if you are interested. It is reckoned that most fishermen either worked their own boats or gave about 40% of the catch to the owners. That's a good deal, even today. 1.5 shares to net-menders, 1 share to haulers, the skipper probably got a good share-deal plus other benefits. 7-10 crew per boat. Only three crew needed to work the boat, most of the crew worked the shoreline. This was a shoreline dragnetting operation. They were scared of the depths and did not (could not) work them. After the drought of 98' with receding shoreline it was easy to see how shallow the water was for some considerable distance out. I have read that these Galileans were not swimmers. That fits with the Thames Estuary here..... few smacksmen were swimmers as the memorial tiles around Brightlingsea church can attest.

Simon with Andrew, and John, James with Zebedee worked together in a two boat team, Simon skippering one, Zebedee the other (all in the Gospels). It says they were partners, together with their share-crew members.
I have read that these guys had a better living than most. I also reckon that Joseph, Jesus and brothers were more skilled than you reckon, and were not paupers.

I know....... sources, sources.....! I can give site details if you want 'em.


Oh........ and Jesus could have been a bloody good swimmer...... kids who grew up on the Nile were! Egyptians were all brilliant and fast swimmers, who could 'overhand' crawl, a good idea if you are swimming in the Nile. The stone carving of freestyling egyptians with archers watching on the bank (4000-7000 years old) is quite interesting. If Jesus was a swimmer as a kid, he would have amazed those Galileans as he swam out to them. The Hebrew for walk could also mean 'go'....?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
OUTHOUSE............... question.......

Was the Galilee district a kind of 'no go' area for the authorities? Seen as a bad place to be?

I'm interested because Jesus definitely seemed to feel safer around the shoreline and general area.

Come to think of it (although you mostly seem to discount the nativity stories) Joseph avoided the Jerusalem area and circuited to Galilee on his return from Egypt. Further to that, earlier, could Joseph have legged it to Egypt because of a heavy tax bill that he could not pay?
What happened to those who could not pay their taxes? This Census business reads all wrong....... the Romans wanted taxes, bottom line, they surely would not move people around for just a census, more like a census and tax return. Was Joseph as poor as you reckon?

I've read through the the Gospels, and nearly every passage can fit with what you claim, that Jesus was calling for non-violent and passive non-co-operation with the invaders, and warning against the 'vichy' type priesthood who were clearly 'quisling' type '5th columnists'. Modern words for ancient traitors!



Its not that it was a "no go" area. It just wasnt under the direct Roman rule, but Romans were there and still carried authority. Sepphoris 4ish miles away from Nazareth was the "Ornament of Galilee" and almost comepletely Roman/hellenistic.

Throw the gospels away in my opinion for a pre 30 years of age Jesus.

They may have left Nazareth because at that time of his supposed birth, Sepphoris was being leveled by Romans during that little war. I would have bailed Nazareth.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If we look at the cultural anthropology of Nazareth and the word tekton, it ment Joseph was a displaced man who was a handworker, living a life below that of a common peasant.

They were known as people who may have had land taken from them by extortion or as payement for debt due to over taxation, who had relocated there.


what Ive found from my studies, is there is little to no evidence from Nazareth before 70CE, its my current opinion that Nazareth was a sort of work camp for laborers who were hired to help rebuild Sepphoris after it was leveled during Jesus early childhood/birth.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Hi OUTHOUSE......... Thankyou for replying.. I have combined your two posts...............

I'm sorry this is long.....
OUTHOUSE
Its not that it was a "no go" area. It just wasnt under the direct Roman rule, but Romans were there and still carried authority. Sepphoris 4ish miles away from Nazareth was the "Ornament of Galilee" and almost comepletely Roman/hellenistic.

Wow! 4ish miles away there was a Roman community? Are you reading this? Wiki offers many suggestions for the name of Nazareth, and here are two:-
One view suggests this toponym might be an example of a tribal name used by resettling groups on their return from exile. Alternatively, the name may derive from the verb na·ṣar, נָצַר, "watch, guard, keep,"[9] and understood either in the sense of "watchtower" or "guard place",
Put 'place for resettling exiles' and 'guard-place or watch tower', and what have you got? A form of concentration area for exiles and/or dissidents?
And why can't much trace of anything be found....... maybe because it was a temporary holding area?
And, if you would pick up the earliest reports, what was Joseph when he returned? Or did he get sent there?


And, since Galilee was not a 'no go' area, could this have been why Jesus told his agents to find friendly homes and stay inside, spreading their messages from within, etc. Now I can see why they couldn't just walk out, canvassing.....and why Jesus liked to make speeches from just off the shoreline in boats?

OUTHOUSE
Throw the gospels away in my opinion for a pre 30 years of age Jesus.
They may have left Nazareth because at that time of his supposed birth, Sepphoris was being leveled by Romans during that little war. I would have bailed Nazareth.
If we look at the cultural anthropology of Nazareth and the word tekton, it ment Joseph was a displaced man who was a handworker, living a life below that of a common peasant.
They were known as people who may have had land taken from them by extortion or as payement for debt due to over taxation, who had relocated there.

We tell our friends about our past, and sometimes they remember, and record........... Maybe Jesus told friends, 'Dad was chucked out of his workshops and home, fined more than he could ever pay, and relocated South, where they could be dealt with. But he saw a chance and got out. By following a star he managed to get to Egypt. My Dad came back for justice, but died soon after. I carried on the struggle in my own way, but my brothers just thought it was hopeless............'

OUTHOUSE
what Ive found from my studies, is there is little to no evidence from Nazareth before 70CE, its my current opinion that Nazareth was a sort of work camp for laborers who were hired to help rebuild Sepphoris after it was leveled during Jesus early childhood/birth.
Nor will there be much evidence if this place was a 'holding camp'. Goodness, history has a way of repetition, was this a concentration camp?

I would not throw anything from Matthew, Mark or Luke away. I would look again. And then again.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Hi OUTHOUSE......... Thankyou for replying..

Wow! 4ish miles away there was a Roman community? Are you reading this? Wiki offers many suggestions for the name of Nazareth, and here are two:-
.

Yes, Sepphoris was not for your average Jew. It factually was Roman/hellenistic.

The original names are of no real meaning for the first century. It had a different name before



maybe because it was a temporary holding area?

Nope

Here the thing, we dont know about it, not because there is no evidence from the first century, but the church built over much of what was the first century, and it cannot be dug.


why Jesus liked to make speeches from just off the shoreline in boats?

No historicity to this. Much of the gospels has Jesus preaching in front of crowds that are to large for the population to have ever attended. The sermon on the mount for example, each author places Jesus in a different spot, not only that contradiction but when you ramble off all those parables, they loose all the meaning. They were ment to be heard and obsorbed because of their importance.

We know the authors, were competing with the divinity of the emporer who spoke in front of large crowds in amplitheaters, so they placed Jesus doing the same.

. Goodness, history has a way of repetition, was this a concentration camp?

No but we are talking about oppressed people, and if you read the NT it doesnt speak highly of Nazareth, it talks about it like it was a slum with criminals.

In context a work camp for the rebuilding of Sepphoris makes sense, but its only opinion.

I would not throw anything from Matthew, Mark or Luke away. I would look again. And then again

We dont throw anything away, its our best evidence for understanding his life.

But it must be understood in the light of cultural anthropology, not theology.

These unknown authors, were not Jewish like Jesus, nor did they even live remotely close, more or less they didnt even belong to the same culture.

Had the real Jesus lived adn ever read these books he would be appauled at the translation of events for what amounts to be his enemies.

Gmark was written to and for Romans, explaining laws to non Jews, Jesus only traveled from small Jewish village to small Jewish village, avoiding Hellenistic places like Sepphoris.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
But he saw a chance and got out. By following a star


Did you know "son of god" was a roman term that started and was used just before Jesus was born?


Augustus witnessed a shooting star or comet, and then proclaimed it was his resurrected father Caesar, and that he was the "son of god"

He minted coins, that had a star on them. Again all this right before Jesus was born, and Jesus legends were recorded over 70 years after this time, by people from another culture far removed from these events.

Many belive that historically, this is where the Bethleham star legend comes from.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Did you know "son of god" was a roman term that started and was used just before Jesus was born?


Augustus witnessed a shooting star or comet, and then proclaimed it was his resurrected father Caesar, and that he was the "son of god"

He minted coins, that had a star on them. Again all this right before Jesus was born, and Jesus legends were recorded over 70 years after this time, by people from another culture far removed from these events.

Many belive that historically, this is where the Bethleham star legend comes from.

Yes! I've read your posts about this.

It's a good point. But I'm still interested in the idea of a 'running man' with wife and child, possibly helped by empathic shepherds, and given navigational advice by some travelling merchants. If some african tribes can have such a strong oral history (proven by some american's experiences?) then for a story to survive 100 years is not impossible.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Thanks for this reply, OUTHOUSE,

Yes, Sepphoris was not for your average Jew. It factually was Roman/hellenistic.
The original names are of no real meaning for the first century. It had a different name before
But it was there, and right by an area for keeping dissidents or exiles under watch. Hang on.... did you mean that Nazareth had a different name? I hope not.

Here the thing, we dont know about it, not because there is no evidence from the first century, but the church built over much of what was the first century, and it cannot be dug.
OK.... Isn't Geo-physichal Archeology moving fast, though? Give it a few years more development. Already they can use equipment which does not have to be inserted into the ground every pace....

No historicity to this. Much of the gospels has Jesus preaching in front of crowds that are to large for the population to have ever attended. The sermon on the mount for example, each author places Jesus in a different spot, not only that contradiction but when you ramble off all those parables, they loose all the meaning. They were ment to be heard and obsorbed because of their importance.
Some Hyperbole is expected, even in modern journalism. I enclose a brief mention from Wiki by a musical student about ancient Egyptian speaking trumpets. It could be rubbish, but then....?
Here:-http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1878Natur..19....5C
Speaking-Trumpets
Chappell, Wm.
Nature, Volume 19, Issue 471, pp. 5 (1878).
THE antiquity of the speaking-trumpet may be proved upon far higher authority than that of the imaginative Athanasius Kircher. It is literally as old as the Pyramids. While examining Lepsius's great work upon ancient Egypt for my ``History of Music'' I noted two examples among the plates of the fourth dynasty of Egypt (see Lepsius's ``Denkmäler'', Dyn. 4, Abt. 2, Blätter 27 and 30). The Egyptian speaking-trumpets seem to have been some five feet or more in length, and too wide in diameter to have been blown by the mouth. They are conical, and lack the contraction near the mouth-end which is so observable in their war-trumpets.


We know the authors, were competing with the divinity of the emporer who spoke in front of large crowds in amplitheaters, so they placed Jesus doing the same.
I get this point, but some hill formations make perfect places for canvassing....... Hillside places, just like the sites of some ampitheatres...... why should that be rubbish?

No but we are talking about oppressed people, and if you read the NT it doesnt speak highly of Nazareth, it talks about it like it was a slum with criminals.
That would fit with a 'a place where politicals, dissidents, tax dodgers and crims are kept and watched'. Cool....

In context a work camp for the rebuilding of Sepphoris makes sense, but its only opinion.
Opinion.....yes...... 9/10s of history (or more) is just that.

We dont throw anything away, its our best evidence for understanding his life.
Of course........ and the early stories might have part truth within them.

But it must be understood in the light of cultural anthropology, not theology.
Yes..... But........ theology is descending angels, rising dead, voices from on high.
For instance, after watching Harry Edwards I believe in 'healers'. In fact, a fair bit of the first two Gospels can be moved away from thunder-and-lightning theology.
(Harry Edwards saw my 1st wife, and she stopped having daily convulsions for three years. They returned after Mr Edwards' death in 76'. She did die later on from them, but Harry Edwards was just stunning to watch. If Jesus could do those things........)


These unknown authors, were not Jewish like Jesus, nor did they even live remotely close, more or less they didnt even belong to the same culture.
There are some (a visiting JW elder for one) who think that the young man who pulled out of his loin-cloth and ran at the time of Jesus' arrest was young Mark. That's not theology, but opinion. But some opinions (obviously) have value.

Had the real Jesus lived adn ever read these books he would be appauled at the translation of events for what amounts to be his enemies.
Yes! And the churches and canons formed in his name wouldn't please him much, methinks.
And so laypeople like me, and scholars like you will read into these accounts and search between the lines.
The possibilities are fascinating! The probabilities will be harder work....

Gmark was written to and for Romans, explaining laws to non Jews, Jesus only traveled from small Jewish village to small Jewish village, avoiding Hellenistic places like Sepphoris.
And his disciples were told to stay inside houses that received them, canvassing within. That fits with careful outdoor canvassing (speeches) from boats (mentioned), from deserted places and high ground.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
If we look at the cultural anthropology of Nazareth ...
Just who do you think is impressed by this pedantry?
But, on the off chance that I'm wrong and that you're doing something beyond posturing, why not reference (let us say) three peer review articles on the cultural anthropology of Nazareth so that we might judge for ourselves the relevance? After all, if you call on us to look at this work, it's more than reasonable to expect that you have some worthwhile examples that we might look at.​
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Just who do you think is impressed by this pedantry?
But, on the off chance that I'm wrong and that you're doing something beyond posturing, why not reference (let us say) three peer review articles on the cultural anthropology of Nazareth so that we might judge for ourselves the relevance? After all, if you call on us to look at this work, it's more than reasonable to expect that you have some worthwhile examples that we might look at.

Tekton

Your taking my quote out of context, and I could have used the Galilean instead of Nazareth, and the same definition would apply.

Ive heard this used by Reed, Meyers, and a few others.


Understanding first century cultural anthropology of Nazareth is missing of course, less what can be interpreted from scripture. Anthrolpology has what, a few pottery shards, a possible bath house, and some oil lamps from a previous culture.?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
OUTHOUSE................

part quote:- when you ramble off all those parables, they loose all the meaning.

Hi....

I have set aside most of Jesus's parables, and have only taken interest in things that he did, places he is reported to have gone, etc etc.....

I do want to isolate all of his parables for scrutiny.

If Jesus was campaigning for support from Galileans and other Jews, for 'non-cooperation with the invaders', and also showing them how they could cope mentally and physically with daily difficulties...... even preparing themselves for death, then to use an indirect communication technique was shrewd and 'safer'.

One direct speech would have been enough to hang him. And so, to read all those parables again would interest me greatly.

OK....... so Jesus eventually 'lost it' when faced with what was happening to his people's sacred places, and this caused him to show himself, but those parables were shrewd. I just wonder how Jesus felt that the crowd would click onto his wavelength about these, because his disciples did not! He was constantly having to explain every sentence to them. Maybe that aspect is a mis-report, and Jesus was in fact explaining his technique and showing how his speeches would awake ideas in folks later on.

But in any case, he did have a defence (through innuendo) if accused of sedition, etc....
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
If we look at the cultural anthropology of Nazareth ...
... Understanding first century cultural anthropology of Nazareth is missing of course, less what can be interpreted from scripture. Anthrolpology has what, a few pottery shards, a possible bath house, and some oil lamps from a previous culture.?
Few dialogues prove as underwhelming as these fleeting instances of outhouse contra outhouse. :D
 

outhouse

Atheistically
OUTHOUSE................

part quote:- when you ramble off all those parables, they loose all the meaning.

Hi....

I have set aside most of Jesus's parables, and have only taken interest in things that he did, places he is reported to have gone, etc etc.....

I do want to isolate all of his parables for scrutiny.

If Jesus was campaigning for support from Galileans and other Jews, for 'non-cooperation with the invaders', and also showing them how they could cope mentally and physically with daily difficulties...... even preparing themselves for death, then to use an indirect communication technique was shrewd and 'safer'.

One direct speech would have been enough to hang him. And so, to read all those parables again would interest me greatly.

OK....... so Jesus eventually 'lost it' when faced with what was happening to his people's sacred places, and this caused him to show himself, but those parables were shrewd. I just wonder how Jesus felt that the crowd would click onto his wavelength about these, because his disciples did not! He was constantly having to explain every sentence to them. Maybe that aspect is a mis-report, and Jesus was in fact explaining his technique and showing how his speeches would awake ideas in folks later on.

But in any case, he did have a defence (through innuendo) if accused of sedition, etc....


Ok youll have to imagine a bit.

We have a teacher healer from a small poverty stricken village, he travels to other small villages teaching and healing for dinner scraps, so that he and probably 2-4 others could survive. Reed and Meyers and Crossan think the few apostles would have went into these villages and exclaimed a wise teacher is coming, trying to gather enough of a crowd that he could spread his message and heal for the common hard working peasants of Galilee.

he would have used parables and told just a few slowly so that their importance could sink in, some of these were very profound and needed to be obsorbed.

He did not charge, but loved to go into ones house or shelter and preach around the dinner table. many meals consisted of flat bread dipped in a vinegar, and olive oil, lentels were popular, and some fish, not much meat at all less holidays. A few mixed seasonal vegetables off and on. Ah yes windowless houses lit with a single oil lamp.

There were poor people, and food was not always plentiful.


You cannot isolate all his parables because we dont know exactly how many were actually his, or modified/redacted for a Roman audience. Q and Thomas are your best bets, but its not alltogther certain either.


They would not have hung him in villages who were basically "like minded" not for peaceful resistance, not for talking about a god who would save Jews from Roman oppression. I dont think he ever had the popularity of JtB until after his death, and he was well aware of what he could get away with. I think he polished JtB mistakes and knew better then to become such a target. hence the traveling teaching and healing and moving on.


How much of his message was political? good question.

We know he wanted to bring god in the home, and stop the money going into the corrupt temple
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The use of parables also may have been a survival method.

While the OT uses many and it was quite normal to use parables.

Its possible he used them to hel conceal his true message. If so, and we have no idea im just fishing here. But if that is the case who knows how much was lost in interpretation.

Remember we only have the victors scripture, not a Jewish one, but one written to and for and redacted by what amounts to Jesus enemies.

In case you dont know, we only have a small fraction of the scriptures that did exist, and are lost.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ok youll have to imagine a bit.

We have a teacher healer from a small poverty stricken village, he travels to other small villages teaching and healing for dinner scraps, so that he and probably 2-4 others could survive. Reed and Meyers and Crossan think the few apostles would have went into these villages and exclaimed a wise teacher is coming, trying to gather enough of a crowd that he could spread his message and heal for the common hard working peasants of Galilee.

he would have used parables and told just a few slowly so that their importance could sink in, some of these were very profound and needed to be obsorbed.

He did not charge, but loved to go into ones house or shelter and preach around the dinner table. many meals consisted of flat bread dipped in a vinegar, and olive oil, lentels were popular, and some fish, not much meat at all less holidays. A few mixed seasonal vegetables off and on. Ah yes windowless houses lit with a single oil lamp.

There were poor people, and food was not always plentiful.


You cannot isolate all his parables because we dont know exactly how many were actually his, or modified/redacted for a Roman audience. Q and Thomas are your best bets, but its not alltogther certain either.


They would not have hung him in villages who were basically "like minded" not for peaceful resistance, not for talking about a god who would save Jews from Roman oppression. I dont think he ever had the popularity of JtB until after his death, and he was well aware of what he could get away with. I think he polished JtB mistakes and knew better then to become such a target. hence the traveling teaching and healing and moving on.


How much of his message was political? good question.

We know he wanted to bring god in the home, and stop the money going into the corrupt temple

Thankyou for that outline...........

So some parables may not have been his, or adapted? OK.... I'll bear that in mind as I read. There might be semantical differences that just show, (like John!).

This pm I bought John Crosson's The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant, because he was one of your quoted authors (£0.99p + post!!)

Actually, Ebay offers the Q gospel now for as little as £6, whereas some university was recently asking £67 for it, so I need to get that because, unlike GThomas, I can't download it.

You seemed to back-peddle in the above post over 'political'. I'll take that into mind as I read Crosson..........


All the best,
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Thankyou for that outline...........

So some parables may not have been his, or adapted? OK.... I'll bear that in mind as I read. There might be semantical differences that just show, (like John!).

This pm I bought John Crosson's The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant, because he was one of your quoted authors (£0.99p + post!!)

Actually, Ebay offers the Q gospel now for as little as £6, whereas some university was recently asking £67 for it, so I need to get that because, unlike GThomas, I can't download it.

You seemed to back-peddle in the above post over 'political'. I'll take that into mind as I read Crosson..........


All the best,


Im not backpeddling as much as trying to place it in a more accurate context.


Crossan is good, and it is one side of the coin, I happen to like.
 
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