Was Jesus an Historical Person?

[oldbadger]

The use of parables also may have been a survival method.

While the OT uses many and it was quite normal to use parables.

Its possible he used them to hel conceal his true message. If so, and we have no idea im just fishing here. But if that is the case who knows how much was lost in interpretation.

Remember we only have the victors scripture, not a Jewish one, but one written to and for and redacted by what amounts to Jesus enemies.

In case you dont know, we only have a small fraction of the scriptures that did exist, and are lost.

Ah ha! That's what I was thinking a couple of posts back. Parables in OT.... I think that there can be a difference between between simile, metaphor, parable etc.....>>>>>>>

>>>>>Jesus's parables were blooming oblique, if his explanations are taken 'as is'. Your point about translation is smack-on, and leaves me stranded, due to my lack of language knowledge.

I still don't 'feel' that Jesus was quite so poor as suggested. Well..... not 'in need'.

I think he was political. With that in mind, it 'splashes' out of the book as each passage is read. And if he was political, he would (might) have received more assistance......

 

[outhouse]

Ah ha! That's what I was thinking a couple of posts back. Parables in OT.... I think that there can be a difference between between simile, metaphor, parable etc.....>>>>>>>

>>>>>Jesus's parables were blooming oblique, if his explanations are taken 'as is'. Your point about translation is smack-on, and leaves me stranded, due to my lack of language knowledge.

I still don't 'feel' that Jesus was quite so poor as suggested. Well..... not 'in need'.

I think he was political. With that in mind, it 'splashes' out of the book as each passage is read. And if he was political, he would (might) have received more assistance......

Theres enough talk about money, and that is what Roman oppression was about, extorting as much as possible without bleeding a culture dry.


According to Crossan and Reed, a tekton lived a life below that of the common peasant.

There was almost no wealth for common people and no middle class, You had people either rich working with Romans, or the common oppressed peasant.

You had Nazareth a peasant village, and almost within eyeshot a ridge over, was oppulance and wealth beyond dream. That is how Jesus grew up.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

According to Crossan and Reed, a tekton lived a life below that of the common peasant. ... That is how Jesus grew up.

Or, as I'm sure you know, ...

Tekton has been traditionally translated into English as "carpenter", but is a rather general word (from the same root that gives us "technical" and "technology") that could cover makers of objects in various materials, even builders. But the specific association with woodworking was a constant in Early Christian writings; Justin Martyr (d. ca. 165) wrote that Jesus made yokes and ploughs, and there are similar early references.

Other scholars have argued that tekton could equally mean a highly-skilled craftsman in wood or the more prestigious metal, perhaps running a workshop with several employees, and noted sources recording the shortage of skilled artisans at the time. Geza Vermes has stated that the terms 'carpenter' and 'son of a carpenter' are used in the Jewish Talmud to signify a very learned man, and he suggests that a description of Joseph as 'naggar' (a carpenter) could indicate that he was considered wise and highly literate in the Torah. [source]

So, either you have a credible basis for discounting these other scholars or your failure to note them is simply an instance of crass selection bias and intellectually dishonest reporting.

 

[outhouse]

Or, as I'm sure you know, ...So, either you have a credible basis for discounting these other scholars or your failure to note them is simply an instance of crass selection bias and intellectually dishonest reporting.

Ill go with Johnathon Reed who has been doing archeology in Sepphoris very close to Nazareth, and one of the utmost authorities on the subject.

There was very little wood in Nazareth for one to be a carpenter. Carpenter is a poor translation. had he been a carpenter, the label would have been Tekton of wood.

Nazareth was a little hovel at best. It would have been filled with displaced peasants, and you will be hard pressed to find a non apologetically source that doesnt claim tekton in this case doesnt mean handworker.



We are getting away from the poor work of past apologetic scholars

I believe Ehrman, Crosson, Borg, Meyers, Moss, Reed all claim handworker as the proper translation missed by older scholars.


Im also not discounting that he could have went to Sepphoris and worked stone, but he was not mentioned as a artisan of stone either.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Ill go with Johnathon Reed ...

That's nice. It's also irrelevant.

 

[outhouse]

That's nice. It's also irrelevant.

What were loking at is a village so small with no wood that could not support a full time tekton.

You had a few cities being built/rebuilt at this time in Galilee that could have offered work.

problem is the limited information we have does not state he was a wood or stone worker.

And digging at Reed is nothing more then discounting modern scholrships in favor of olf scholarships .

There is no debate that tekton as used means, handworker.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I believe Ehrman, Crosson, Borg, Meyers, Moss, Reed all claim handworker as the proper translation missed by older scholars.

None of them do. First, translations like artisan or craftsman go back well over a century. So older scholars didn't miss anything. Second, the primary meaning was and still is understood to be "carpenter" or "worker in wood". More importantly, it doesn't matter. There was no distinction which made a tekton who worked with wood somehow a member of a different class than a sculptor or any other skilled laborer.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And digging at Reed is nothing more then discounting modern scholrships in favor of olf scholarships .

I have absolutely nothing against Reed and everything against your methodology.

 

[outhouse]

None of them do. First, translations like artisan or craftsman go back well over a century. So older scholars didn't miss anything. Second, the primary meaning was and still is understood to be "carpenter" or "worker in wood". More importantly, it doesn't matter. There was no distinction which made a tekton who worked with wood somehow a member of a different class than a sculptor or any other skilled laborer.

I have heard from their lips.

He was not a tekton of wood, nor stone.

You will find the current translation is handworker

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I have heard from their lips.

He was not a tekton of wood, nor stone.

You will find the current translation is handworker

I don't care what the translation is. The word itself typically refers to working with wood (i.e., carpenter) and/or with other materials. The word tekton is related to (comes from) the word techne, meaning skill, craft, trade. A tekton was a craftsman, and as those who worked with stone, bronze, etc., usually went by other names, tekton referred prototypically to one who crafts with wood. It is absolutely different from an unskilled labourer. People who simply served as unskilled labourers (douloi) were not called tektones. Instead, tekton was reserved for trade (skilled) workers and usually referred to carpenters.

 

[oldbadger]

There was almost no wealth for common people and no middle class, You had people either rich working with Romans, or the common oppressed peasant.

You had Nazareth a peasant village, and almost within eyeshot a ridge over, was oppulance and wealth beyond dream. That is how Jesus grew up.

That sounds good. Rich quislings, oppressed people ........ and resistance. I'll buy that.

But I reckon Nazareth might have been bigger than you say..... let's wait for geo-phys to advance just a little more. And that opulent neighbour was a service town, maybe, for the authorities who ran the camp for exiles, crims, tax debtors ..... and folks who were classed as 'low-life'. a camp with watch towers, and guards, maybe.

Jesus might have become 'resistance'. It does read like this was the case. I must go.....loads of parables to read.......

All the best.

 

[outhouse]

That sounds good. Rich quislings, oppressed people ........ and resistance. I'll buy that.

But I reckon Nazareth might have been bigger than you say..... let's wait for geo-phys to advance just a little more. And that opulent neighbour was a service town, maybe, for the authorities who ran the camp for exiles, crims, tax debtors ..... and folks who were classed as 'low-life'. a camp with watch towers, and guards, maybe.

Jesus might have become 'resistance'. It does read like this was the case. I must go.....loads of parables to read.......

All the best.

Nazareth I dont believe was "ran" it wasnt a slave camp. Just where the Jews set up that were used as a low wage work force.

Its stated Jews were paid about $1.75 for a days wage, compared to todays value of the dollar. Maybe that will help you understand how poor and poverty stricken even the working class were.

Of course I have been to villages in Peru that today are still paid less then this. They do survive off the barter system and help each other out, much the way the Jews from this time are known to have lived.

 

[outhouse]

I don't care what the translation is. The word itself typically refers to working with wood (i.e., carpenter) and/or with other materials. The word tekton is related to (comes from) the word techne, meaning skill, craft, trade. A tekton was a craftsman, and as those who worked with stone, bronze, etc., usually went by other names, tekton referred prototypically to one who crafts with wood. It is absolutely different from an unskilled labourer. People who simply served as unskilled labourers (douloi) were not called tektones. Instead, tekton was reserved for trade (skilled) workers and usually referred to carpenters.

First of all your taking a greek word that more or less evolved during different time periods.

Dont refute me, refute Crossan himself.


Why Jesus Didn't Marry By John Dominic Crossan --Married Mary Magdalene - Beliefnet.com

It seems most likely, therefore, that Jesus wasn't married because he was a dispossessed peasant. As such, he could say to others like himself, "Blessed are the destitute." Some people say that, no, Jesus was a carpenter, a skilled member of the middle class. Mark 6:3 says Jesus was a "tekton," a Greek word better translated as "manual laborer" than "skilled carpenter."


Notice how Mark's first and most careful readers respond to that information. The writer of Matthew (who used Mark as a basis of his Gospel) calls Jesus "the carpenter's son." Luke (who also used Mark) omits any mention of occupation and simply call him "Joseph's son." They knew quite well it was not a compliment. It was what happened to a son dispossessed from his family farm and forced to find work as best he could. Under those circumstances, Jesus and many others like him would never have a chance to marry.

 

[outhouse]

Heres another from Reed and Patterson

National Geographic Jesus

However, Reed says that a tekton is simply a person who works with his hands. While Joseph
and Jesus may at times have worked with wood, they more likely, he claims, to have shaped
stone, repaired houses, or even worked in the fields.

Patterson says that being a tekton means Joseph owned no land and was a step below that
of a normal peasant.

 

[outhouse]

That sounds good. Rich quislings, oppressed people ........ and resistance. I'll buy that.

But I reckon Nazareth might have been bigger than you say..... let's wait for geo-phys to advance just a little more. And that opulent neighbour was a service town, maybe, for the authorities who ran the camp for exiles, crims, tax debtors ..... and folks who were classed as 'low-life'. a camp with watch towers, and guards, maybe.

Jesus might have become 'resistance'. It does read like this was the case. I must go.....loads of parables to read.......

All the best.

Read this, it gives a good view of life in and around Nazareth regarding Mary.

Miriam of Nazareth: A Jewish Galilean | East Asian Pastoral Institute

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

First of all your taking a greek word that more or less evolved during different time periods.

And yet when I look at its use in different time periods, or in different lexicons (including those for NT and early Christian texts), the primary meaning of carpenter or skilled worker of wood stands out.

Dont refute me, refute Crossan himself.

Crossan doesn't say much in your link. The Greek word does indeed refer to skilled workers, not simple manual labor. It may mean more than simply carpenter (e.g., include mason or builder as well), but it was not "manual laborer". The Aramaic word would have been naggara, which like the Greek tekton refers to craftsmen/builders, not just manual laborers.

It seems most likely, therefore, that Jesus wasn't married because he was a dispossessed peasant.

There is no support for this whatsoever apart from Crossan's preconceptions and bad logic.

 

[outhouse]

And yet when I look at its use in different time periods, or in different lexicons (including those for NT and early Christian texts), the primary meaning of carpenter or skilled worker of wood stands out.




Crossan doesn't say much in your link. The Greek word does indeed refer to skilled workers, not simple manual labor. It may mean more than simply carpenter (e.g., include mason or builder as well), but it was not "manual laborer". The Aramaic word would have been naggara, which like the Greek tekton refers to craftsmen/builders, not just manual laborers.


There is no support for this whatsoever apart from Crossan's preconceptions and bad logic.

I dont buy everything Crossan states either.


But I think you can count on Nazareth not having much of any value what so ever during the first century.

Heres a good link that uses the word artisan for tekton, but places it in the right context, which states exactly what im describing.

Miriam of Nazareth: A Jewish Galilean | East Asian Pastoral Institute

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I dont buy everything Crossan states either.


But I think you can count on Nazareth not having much of any value what so ever during the first century.

Heres a good link that uses the word artisan for tekton, but places it in the right context, which states exactly what im describing.

Miriam of Nazareth: A Jewish Galilean | East Asian Pastoral Institute

The link is at best overly simplistic (although there are much worse sources). There are much better sources out there, e.g.:
Sean Freyne's Galilee from Alexander the Great to Hadrian 323 B.C.E to 135 C.E.
Mark A. Chancey's Greco-Roman Culture and the Galilee of Jesus
Martin Goodman's Judaism in the Roman World (Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity)
the edited volume A Wandering Galilean: Essays in Honour of Seán Freyne (Supplements to the Journal for the Study of Judaism)
etc.
I wouldn't rely on so little to understand the Greek word in context.

 

[steeltoes]

There are people who doubt whether evolution is real or whether the holocaust existed. Stupidity knows no boundary. There are always going to be people who don't have a clue what they are talking about doubting this or that.


Which is why we have people who doubt that the moon landing was real, that dinosaur bones are real, and so on. Or maybe it's because people who don't have a clue but have an agenda don't need legitimate claims to doubt?

Asking if Jesus was an historical person is equivalent to holocaust denial, doubting evolution, stupidity, and doubting the moon landing. Priceless.

As if those on this third quest for an historical Jesus have made such a case for themselves.

 

[outhouse]

The link is at best overly simplistic (although there are much worse sources). There are much better sources out there, e.g.:
Sean Freyne's Galilee from Alexander the Great to Hadrian 323 B.C.E to 135 C.E.
Mark A. Chancey's Greco-Roman Culture and the Galilee of Jesus
Martin Goodman's Judaism in the Roman World (Ancient Judaism and Early Christianity)
the edited volume A Wandering Galilean: Essays in Honour of Seán Freyne (Supplements to the Journal for the Study of Judaism)
etc.
I wouldn't rely on so little to understand the Greek word in context.

It was just a quick source I pulled to show the certainty for my opinion. I dont hold it as anything more then a quick link.


Theres only so much to it in relationship to a poverty stricken village like Nazareth that was nothing more then a hovel.

Thats "if" jesus lived there, and it wasnt a poor translation of Nazarene.


I think he lived there, but we are dealing with quite the hypotheticals to claim im wrong with my interpretation of Tekton.