Was Jesus an Historical Person?

[oldbadger]

I agree that he was probably written about in the bible based off of some nice, giving, generous and wholesome man from back in the day. If such a guy existed, then he came from his mother's vag through birth after she definitely had sexual intercourse. I DO NOT think any of these ridiculous miracles happened... nobody can walk on water, part a sea with a wave of a hand or be swallowed by a whale and survive... it baffles me everyday that people drink this kool-aid willingly... how many times could someone have gone to hawaii with all of the money they've given to their church in tithes? #ahwell

Hi! I think you got that wrong...... well...... the Jesus part.

IMO Jesus didn't walk on water, he crawled on water. (No spin!) The word for walk in Hebrew (for example) also means 'to go'.

If Jesus grew to infancy on the Nile, then, like the other kids, he became one of the fastest swimmers in the world. They could crawl overhand, as some Egyptian carvings, thousands of years old, show. Whereas Galilean fisherfolk were frightened of the deeps and did not swim.

So when Jesus, not in the least frightened of Galilean waters (after the nile crocs!), fancied going out to his mates in their boat, he just swam out using a fast crawl, and bloody amazed them! Peter saw it, tried it, and then realised that he could not do it. He learned later on how to doggy paddle, cos it says so..... in so many words.

So when Jesus went out to the boat, Jesus didn't walk........... he bloody flew! Well....... kind of. !

All the best.......... thanks for your point. (I don't know about Jonah!!!!)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

IMO Jesus didn't walk on water, he crawled on water. (No spin!) The word for walk in Hebrew (for example) also means 'to go'.

If Jesus grew to infancy on the Nile, then, like the other kids, he became one of the fastest swimmers in the world.

You

... ummm

... never mind. ​

 

[BiblesBeTrippin]

thanks for that oldbadger... that's the kind of thing that really ****** me off about the bible honestly. I certainly didn't know that "walk" in Hebrew meant to go and why would I? I don't think my grandma who is Jesus' best friend knows that either but she is just willing to read and believe this "miracle." making something bigger than it is... your take on it is funny though. Jonah's story is absurd - he didn't do what God said so he was swallowed by a whale and after a couple days, (I think), he was spat out and believed wholeheartedly again... hahahaha

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I certainly didn't know that "walk" in Hebrew meant to go and why would I?

And where might one find this Hebrew term in the Gospels?

Edited to add:

as opposed to peripateo​

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I certainly didn't know that "walk" in Hebrew meant to go

It doesn't. The word הָלַךְ in Hebrew, like the Greek erchomai, meant "go" or "come" in terms of travel. Generally this meant on foot or over land, and when it is clear from context that it means on foot, you can translate both words using "walk".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But I think halach actually means swims-exceptionally-well-having-learned-in-the-Nile when applied to Jesus who, as we all know, trained under Moses.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

But I think halach actually means swims-exceptionally-well-having-learned-in-the-Nile when applied to Jesus who, as we all know, trained under Moses.

Yes, but only in the Galilean-Nile dialect. The Hebrew of the New Testament was Syrio-Aramaic Greek.

 

[oldbadger]

thanks for that oldbadger... that's the kind of thing that really ****** me off about the bible honestly. I certainly didn't know that "walk" in Hebrew meant to go and why would I? I don't think my grandma who is Jesus' best friend knows that either but she is just willing to read and believe this "miracle." making something bigger than it is... your take on it is funny though. Jonah's story is absurd - he didn't do what God said so he was swallowed by a whale and after a couple days, (I think), he was spat out and believed wholeheartedly again... hahahaha

Ha ha ha! I like your posts!

Tell you what, let's make a miracle today, for ten thousand years' time.

This cyclist goes really quickly down a hill, turns a corner too fast, and cannot keep to the right side, and so runs into the front of a car. The cyclist is thrown over the car and lands on the road, but because he is wearing protective gear, he just stands up and walks to the car to start an argument. (these cyclists!).

An observer writes a statement about this. The paper somehow survives several nuclear holocausts (or whatever) over the eons, to get dug by an archeologist. Several language professors (scholars!!!) mess about with what the statement says, argue together, and proclaim that angels (called geesers) once existed, who travelled on strange machines that could fly through the air, and not only that, but these geezers could leave these machines, called bi-e (a letter lost) and fly, all by themselves for quite considerable distances!

( Well, vere I was, waitin' fer me bus, an this geeser come raarnd ve corrna on his bleedin' bike, flying 'e was, an hit the motor 'ed on, e did. Well, e just flew over the torp o' the moter..... man did he ever go far! ....... et al)

 

[oldbadger]

It doesn't. The word הָלַךְ in Hebrew, like the Greek erchomai, meant "go" or "come" in terms of travel. Generally this meant on foot or over land, and when it is clear from context that it means on foot, you can translate both words using "walk".

Cool......

Do you know what the word for 'swim' is?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

שחה

Do you know how many times the NT talks of Jesus swimming in the Nile?

 

[oldbadger]

It doesn't. The word הָלַךְ in Hebrew, like the Greek erchomai, meant "go" or "come" in terms of travel. Generally this meant on foot or over land, and when it is clear from context that it means on foot, you can translate both words using "walk".

One more!

Hang on....so that word, shown above, means 'go' or 'come' but you can translate it as 'on foot', or ...'walk'? Yes? And you mentioned 'generally', what about 'out of the ordinary, like a man swimming fast in the sea?

Egyptians were very 'into' swimming, as their carvings show.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Egyptians were very 'into' swimming, as their carvings show.

What does that have to do with Jesus?

 

[oldbadger]

It doesn't. The word הָלַךְ in Hebrew, like the Greek erchomai, meant "go" or "come" in terms of travel. Generally this meant on foot or over land, and when it is clear from context that it means on foot, you can translate both words using "walk".

Generally......

I want to push this a bit further, ok? Let's say that Jesus could swim, and felt very comfortable in the water, an overhand crawl freestyler, (like the Egyptians!). Could a few crewmembers who had never seen such a thing refer to this sight as 'coming' to us, or travelling to us, as easily as 'on foot'?

I'm sorry! My last post did not appear, so I wrote this instead...... ow you've got both!

 

[outhouse]

Generally......

I want to push this a bit further, ok? Let's say that Jesus could swim, and felt very comfortable in the water, an overhand crawl freestyler, (like the Egyptians!). Could a few crewmembers who had never seen such a thing refer to this sight as 'coming' to us, or travelling to us, as easily as 'on foot'?

I'm sorry! My last post did not appear, so I wrote this instead...... ow you've got both!

Reality is it is probably the authors competing Jesus divinity with the emporer.

And if you think this is nuts, see what these ancient people attributed for divinity to the mortal emporer.

 

[oldbadger]

Reality is it is probably the authors competing Jesus divinity with the emporer.

And if you think this is nuts, see what these ancient people attributed for divinity to the mortal emporer.

Hi outhouse....

I'm supposed to be reading friggin' parables, but..... well, you know....
I totally understand your point, honestly.

But look at this, other members who know have given me the Hebrew for walk and swim. OK?
Well, when sent through a (robot) translator they both show walk as possibilities!! Let me just stuff it all down here:-

שחה
Translation results for: שחה
שָׂחָה פ' קל
to swim
שָׁחָה פ' קל
(flowery) to bend over, to stoop ; to bow down, to crouch, to squat
שָׂח פ' קל
(flowery) to walk (for pleasure), to wander
שָׁח פ' קל
(literary) to be bent, to be hunched ; to bow one's head in sorrow
שַׁח תואר
(literary) bent, hunched
שַׁח פ' קל
(literary) to be bent, to be hunched ; to bow one's head in sorrow
שָׂח פ' קל
(literary) to say, to relate, to tell


הָלַךְ
to go, to walk ; to proceed ; to leave, to pass, to disappear ; to follow ; (colloquial) to attend ; to continue, to intensify ; (colloquial) to happen ; (colloquial) to be destroyed, to be lost ; (slang) to die ; (slang) to go for
הֵלֶךְ שֵם ז'
(literary) wanderer, nomad
הַלָּךְ שֵם ז'
(sports) speed-walker
הִלֵּךְ פ' פיעל
(literary) to stroll, to wander around ; to spread (a rumor)

I reckon Jesus may have been a very good swimmer, and Peter slowly learned from him until he could dare to wade out a few hundred feet.

I think that the writers did play with 'the Son of God' etc, exactly as you say, but with simple stuff like this particular report, I reckon that Jesus just amazed a crew of non-swimmers.

(A neighbour, 50 yards away from here, was a naval clearance diver. These guys are so brave that a pub in Ramsgate will not charge a CD for drinks, ever. I found this neighbour seven miles out in the Estuary, off the Shivering Sands Towers, several years ago, whilst I was trawling. He said he was just happy in the water. I know it's not the same event, but few people can believe me about this event, which I saw for myself. Hence my interest in this other matter).

 

[outhouse]

Hi outhouse....

I'm supposed to be reading friggin' parables, but..... well, you know....
I totally understand your point, honestly.

But look at this, other members who know have given me the Hebrew for walk and swim. OK?
Well, when sent through a (robot) translator they both show walk as possibilities!! Let me just stuff it all down here:-

שחה
Translation results for: שחה
שָׂחָה פ' קל
to swim
שָׁחָה פ' קל
(flowery) to bend over, to stoop ; to bow down, to crouch, to squat
שָׂח פ' קל
(flowery) to walk (for pleasure), to wander
שָׁח פ' קל
(literary) to be bent, to be hunched ; to bow one's head in sorrow
שַׁח תואר
(literary) bent, hunched
שַׁח פ' קל
(literary) to be bent, to be hunched ; to bow one's head in sorrow
שָׂח פ' קל
(literary) to say, to relate, to tell


הָלַךְ
to go, to walk ; to proceed ; to leave, to pass, to disappear ; to follow ; (colloquial) to attend ; to continue, to intensify ; (colloquial) to happen ; (colloquial) to be destroyed, to be lost ; (slang) to die ; (slang) to go for
הֵלֶךְ שֵם ז'
(literary) wanderer, nomad
הַלָּךְ שֵם ז'
(sports) speed-walker
הִלֵּךְ פ' פיעל
(literary) to stroll, to wander around ; to spread (a rumor)

I reckon Jesus may have been a very good swimmer, and Peter slowly learned from him until he could dare to wade out a few hundred feet.

I think that the writers did play with 'the Son of God' etc, exactly as you say, but with simple stuff like this particular report, I reckon that Jesus just amazed a crew of non-swimmers.

(A neighbour, 50 yards away from here, was a naval clearance diver. These guys are so brave that a pub in Ramsgate will not charge a CD for drinks, ever. I found this neighbour seven miles out in the Estuary, off the Shivering Sands Towers, several years ago, whilst I was trawling. He said he was just happy in the water. I know it's not the same event, but few people can believe me about this event, which I saw for myself. Hence my interest in this other matter).

First drop the Hebrew, the script wasnt written in or for Hebrews.


Second, they clearly ment walking. They were building divinity.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

First drop the Hebrew, the script wasnt written in or for Hebrews.

Second, they clearly ment walking. They were building divinity.

I really hate it when you say something I agree with.

 

[oldbadger]

First drop the Hebrew, the script wasnt written in or for Hebrews.

Second, they clearly ment walking. They were building divinity.

Hello again.....

Just a sec......

I put it to you that Mark wrote for the Jews? He probably spoke Hebrew as well as Aramaic? He is probably the most genuine of all the authors? (Save Thomas?)

Those are questions, (above) but this is more pf a challenge:-
You surely can't argue what 'they' wrote this for. There is no 'they' in it. You have always held that Mark's Gospel was written first. You have always held that Matthew, Luke (and maybe John?) copied him. Anything that repeats in their books was Mark's! No they..............!

And so, was Mark pulling the 'Son of God' angle here for a Roman audience? Had Paul got his manipulative paws into Mark? I don't think so. I think Mark was pretty genuine. The fact that others played about with his work later could be true. Probably is, inserting goodness knows what. But that story has a right to stand by itself, 'bigged up' from swimming to walking later on by a Pauline scribe.

 

[outhouse]

Hello again.....

Just a sec......

I put it to you that Mark wrote for the Jews? He probably spoke Hebrew as well as Aramaic? He is probably the most genuine of all the authors? (Save Thomas?)

Those are questions, (above) but this is more pf a challenge:-
You surely can't argue what 'they' wrote this for. There is no 'they' in it. You have always held that Mark's Gospel was written first. You have always held that Matthew, Luke (and maybe John?) copied him. Anything that repeats in their books was Mark's! No they..............!

And so, was Mark pulling the 'Son of God' angle here for a Roman audience? Had Paul got his manipulative paws into Mark? I don't think so. I think Mark was pretty genuine. The fact that others played about with his work later could be true. Probably is, inserting goodness knows what. But that story has a right to stand by itself, 'bigged up' from swimming to walking later on by a Pauline scribe.

GMark was written to and for non-Jews clearly explaining Jewish laws to those that did not understand them. Romans and other Hellenist probably in Syria.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

I think that Jesus had a reputation as a particularly bad swimmer. John the Baptist tried to teach him to swim, and would dunk Jesus in water when he made mistakes. But Jesus never learned, so he gave up swimming and tried fishing, and when that didn't work he practiced walking on water. When he was finished, he walked across the oceans to Utah. I mean, as long as we're just making stuff up left and right.