Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

[CG Didymus]

The crucifixion of Christ is not a supernatural or extraordinary phenomenon. It is consistent with known history and why would the Christians make it up? Coming back to life 3 days later and then ascending through the stratosphere is anything but ordinary.

So, even though none of the writers were there, they know for sure Jesus was born of a Virgin and that there was a star that guided the Magi. They know for a fact Jesus turned water into wine and walked on water. They know for a fact that he healed people of leprosy and blindness of other infirmities. They know, because they could very well have witnessed it, that Jesus was crucified. They know, because many did witness it, that Jesus showed himself to be alive after being crucified.

Or, only the Virgin Birth, which is not a supernatural or extraordinary phenomenon? and the crucifixion are true and consistent with known history. So the writers didn't make those two events up, but they did make up all the other things about Jesus? But, when they told of people being raised from the dead and the blind receiving sight and that Jesus walked on water and was resurrected from the dead... those stories, although they never happened, the writers made them up to tell a "symbolic" message?

But what is the Christian explanation of why Jesus had to die on the cross? Baha'is want nothing to do with that, because the Christian writers say it was to pay for the sins of all humanity. No one else could do it. It had to be a perfect sacrifice, and only Jesus could be that special person. They go on to say how he conquered death and the devil and all the rest. The rest of the things that Christians believe that the NT writers teach is ignored and has to be ignored by Baha'is, because it makes Jesus the only one who could of paid the price to save humanity from the devil and hell. None of which Baha'is believe is true.

So then, what's the big deal that Baha'is believe the Virgin Birth and the Crucifixion of Jesus? They reject pretty much everything else about what the NT claims to have happened. If the Baha'i Faith is true, then nothing is really all that important about the story of Jesus... no hell, no devil, no resurrection, he didn't walk on water and all the rest. It's just an elaborate, embellished story about a person his followers made into a God/man. Or, it's all true and we need Jesus to be saved. Although I disagree with some of the Baha'i explanations, I'd rather have them be right than the Christians. But my favorite is still reincarnation. I know I can do better next time. All I need is a few more chances at getting it right.

 

[paarsurrey]

When I was first converted to Islam, I was told that the Yusuf Ali interpretation was the best. He was a man of Indian descent that lived in the UK, and highly respected. I would be interested to know if this translation is by him? Yes, there are two versions of the story, I'm told. I used to have the names of those who wrote them, but that has been years since.

For me, the things that really tell me who I am to be are not dependent upon the Crucifiction. I think that no one can use the falsifying of the story to have an excuse for doing things that displease God, Allah SWT, or whoever you wish to call him.

Nobody's translation is perfect. No translation of Quran is Word of G-d, the Word of G-d is text of Quran in Arabic.
Whatever the translation, Quran corrects it if the reader understands it from the context verses and the verses in other chapters of Quran. Every translation of Quran whether done by a Non-Muslim or Muslim, Shia or Sunni or whatever, if it is checked with the above principle derived from the Quran itself guides the reader perfectly. No doubt remains if a sincere and unbiased search is made and pondered intently. For the test case we can take this very Verse of Quran 4:157-158. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

So, even though none of the writers were there, they know for sure Jesus was born of a Virgin and that there was a star that guided the Magi. They know for a fact Jesus turned water into wine and walked on water. They know for a fact that he healed people of leprosy and blindness of other infirmities. They know, because they could very well have witnessed it, that Jesus was crucified. They know, because many did witness it, that Jesus showed himself to be alive after being crucified.

Or, only the Virgin Birth, which is not a supernatural or extraordinary phenomenon? and the crucifixion are true and consistent with known history. So the writers didn't make those two events up, but they did make up all the other things about Jesus? But, when they told of people being raised from the dead and the blind receiving sight and that Jesus walked on water and was resurrected from the dead... those stories, although they never happened, the writers made them up to tell a "symbolic" message?

But what is the Christian explanation of why Jesus had to die on the cross? Baha'is want nothing to do with that, because the Christian writers say it was to pay for the sins of all humanity. No one else could do it. It had to be a perfect sacrifice, and only Jesus could be that special person. They go on to say how he conquered death and the devil and all the rest. The rest of the things that Christians believe that the NT writers teach is ignored and has to be ignored by Baha'is, because it makes Jesus the only one who could of paid the price to save humanity from the devil and hell. None of which Baha'is believe is true.

So then, what's the big deal that Baha'is believe the Virgin Birth and the Crucifixion of Jesus? They reject pretty much everything else about what the NT claims to have happened. If the Baha'i Faith is true, then nothing is really all that important about the story of Jesus... no hell, no devil, no resurrection, he didn't walk on water and all the rest. It's just an elaborate, embellished story about a person his followers made into a God/man. Or, it's all true and we need Jesus to be saved. Although I disagree with some of the Baha'i explanations, I'd rather have them be right than the Christians. But my favorite is still reincarnation. I know I can do better next time. All I need is a few more chances at getting it right.

"So then, what's the big deal that Baha'is believe the Virgin Birth and the Crucifixion of Jesus? They reject pretty much everything else about what the NT claims to have happened." Unquote.
Don't worry, please.
It is simple the technique of "All is fair in love and sales " of Bahaullah. At one hand he agrees with the Christianity and on the other he sells his own God-Head, Manifestation of God and Bahaullah's being Second-Coming of Jesus.
This is my understanding when I am reading Kitab-i-Iqan, the so called "The Book of Certitude" of Bahaullah.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Jesus Crucified or Not?

One may like to read my post #638 in another thread, please.
Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

So, even though none of the writers were there, they know for sure Jesus was born of a Virgin and that there was a star that guided the Magi. They know for a fact Jesus turned water into wine and walked on water. They know for a fact that he healed people of leprosy and blindness of other infirmities. They know, because they could very well have witnessed it, that Jesus was crucified. They know, because many did witness it, that Jesus showed himself to be alive after being crucified.

Or, only the Virgin Birth, which is not a supernatural or extraordinary phenomenon? and the crucifixion are true and consistent with known history. So the writers didn't make those two events up, but they did make up all the other things about Jesus? But, when they told of people being raised from the dead and the blind receiving sight and that Jesus walked on water and was resurrected from the dead... those stories, although they never happened, the writers made them up to tell a "symbolic" message?

But what is the Christian explanation of why Jesus had to die on the cross? Baha'is want nothing to do with that, because the Christian writers say it was to pay for the sins of all humanity. No one else could do it. It had to be a perfect sacrifice, and only Jesus could be that special person. They go on to say how he conquered death and the devil and all the rest. The rest of the things that Christians believe that the NT writers teach is ignored and has to be ignored by Baha'is, because it makes Jesus the only one who could of paid the price to save humanity from the devil and hell. None of which Baha'is believe is true.

So then, what's the big deal that Baha'is believe the Virgin Birth and the Crucifixion of Jesus? They reject pretty much everything else about what the NT claims to have happened. If the Baha'i Faith is true, then nothing is really all that important about the story of Jesus... no hell, no devil, no resurrection, he didn't walk on water and all the rest. It's just an elaborate, embellished story about a person his followers made into a God/man. Or, it's all true and we need Jesus to be saved. Although I disagree with some of the Baha'i explanations, I'd rather have them be right than the Christians. But my favorite is still reincarnation. I know I can do better next time. All I need is a few more chances at getting it right.

The argument provided is the one some Christian apologetics use. It’s essentially saying the gospel accounts are all literally true or all false. It’s an argument that discards the subtleties and nuances of both the New Testament and the Baha’i writings. Many Christians have abandoned literalism a long time ago as it simply doesn’t work.

 

[paarsurrey]

The argument provided is the one some Christian apologetics use. It’s essentially saying the gospel accounts are all literally true or all false. It’s an argument that discards the subtleties and nuances of both the New Testament and the Baha’i writings. Many Christians have abandoned literalism a long time ago as it simply doesn’t work.

It is not a correct approach. It is neither literal nor allegorical. Why not admit openly that Paul's-Christianity and Bahaullah' religion are both, supporting one another, mythical because except a sentence* spoken on the Cross by Jesus nothing else is spoken or dictated by Jesus? Right, please?

Regards
____________
"Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani?"

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I always also defend Bahaullah's followers in connection with their right to believe in whatever they want to believe but in relation to Quran, Bahaullah had a shallow knowledge of Quran, that is my point, please.

Regards

Why is it then that the Muslim Clergy in Iran banished Baha'u'llah?

They were always shown by Baha'u'llah that He had an superior knowledge and grasp of the Quran, than all of them combined. They always found their knowledge was flawed when faced with the answers given by Baha'u'llah.

These events and proofs are recorded.

Regards Tony

 

[Ellen Brown]

The argument provided is the one some Christian apologetics use. It’s essentially saying the gospel accounts are all literally true or all false. It’s an argument that discards the subtleties and nuances of both the New Testament and the Baha’i writings. Many Christians have abandoned literalism a long time ago as it simply doesn’t work.

Being intensely indoctrinated to the belief here in the American culture that I occupied, this is something that I may not be able to give up. There are certain aspects of my psyche where other certain long rehearsed practices are extremely persistent, mantras perhaps? It is sad and unsettling that conservative Christian, and Muslim practices are their own worst enemy. In independent study of the known works of the faiths, it seems obvious that God's, Allah's requirements are minimal and easy.

In Jesus' own words, "My yoke is light, my burden is easy", and in Islam, I've often heard the words, "There is no compulsion in Islam". Sadly, the followers quickly forget that sentiment and pile grievous burdens on us.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It is sad and unsettling that conservative Christian, and Muslim practices are their own worst enemy.

Is that not the Lesson to learn from the Jews reaction to Christ. Also the advice of seeing with new eyes and hearing with new ears, like a child who is yet to be indoctrinated, but a free heart that is ready?

In the end the unsettled soul, when it discovers what it can be, becomes a fire that can not be quenched.

From a Persian Mystic poem;

"Split the atom's heart, and lo!
Within it thou wilt find a sun.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

It is not a correct approach. It is neither literal nor allegorical. Why not admit openly that Paul's-Christianity and Bahaullah' religion are both, supporting one another, mythical because except a sentence* spoken on the Cross by Jesus nothing else is spoken or dictated by Jesus? Right, please?

Regards
____________
"Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani?"

The fundamental problem for the Muslims I speak to online, is they don't understand Christianity at all. The exceptions are those who were previously Christian and understood Christian theology.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Being intensely indoctrinated to the belief here in the American culture that I occupied, this is something that I may not be able to give up. There are certain aspects of my psyche where other certain long rehearsed practices are extremely persistent, mantras perhaps? It is sad and unsettling that conservative Christian, and Muslim practices are their own worst enemy. In independent study of the known works of the faiths, it seems obvious that God's, Allah's requirements are minimal and easy.

In Jesus' own words, "My yoke is light, my burden is easy", and in Islam, I've often heard the words, "There is no compulsion in Islam". Sadly, the followers quickly forget that sentiment and pile grievous burdens on us.

Having been Christian, I can certainly identify with the powerful affect fundamental Christian beliefs can have on the psyche. It must be the same for those raised Muslim. However pervasive conservative Christian and Islamic beliefs are in some parts of the world (USA included), our future moving forward is a faith that is freed from dogmas and doctrines that have outlived their usefulness. Whether such a faith can be found through a radically reformed Christianity/Islam or a new religion like the Baha'i Faith, time will tell.

 

[Muffled]

That's the opposite of what's true.
All outside sources are considered later additions by the church or simply mentioning Christians who follow he gospels.

The gospels are not historical and read exactly as myth and are all copied from of Mark.
The Paul that is authentic mentions only scripture and revelation, no life of Jesus.
Like historian Richard Carrier says the evidence "sucks".

I believe you are listening to fantasy. The Bible is not myth but is what God intended it to be. There is no evidence that the other books were copied from Mark. They simply tell the same story and that makes sense since they experienced the same things.

 

[Muffled]

Yusaf Ali’s translation of the Holy Quran from Arabic to English is indeed considered amongst the best. However, it is not the role of one who translates, to also interpret. That is for each one of us.

I believe someone who interprets from his own thinking is going to be in error.

 

[Muffled]

I always also defend Bahaullah's followers in connection with their right to believe in whatever they want to believe but in relation to Quran, Bahaullah had a shallow knowledge of Quran, that is my point, please.

Regards

I believe it can be said that the B man not having the Holy Spirit means that his interpretation isn't any better than anyone else in the same condition.

 

[paarsurrey]

The fundamental problem for the Muslims I speak to online, is they don't understand Christianity at all. The exceptions are those who were previously Christian and understood Christian theology.

I understand, while I read Kitab-i-Iqan, that neither Bahaullah nor Shoghi Effendi nor their followers understood Pauline-Christianity in its true colors. One may like to read "Pagan-Christianity" to have its glimpses.
Pagan Christianity - Wikipedia
It has nothing to do with Jesus , Mary and teachings of Jesus. One may like to read what is written in Quran about Jesus and Mary, quite some chapters, no compulsion however.

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I believe you are listening to fantasy. The Bible is not myth but is what God intended it to be. There is no evidence that the other books were copied from Mark. They simply tell the same story and that makes sense since they experienced the same things.

"I believe"

I understand that mostly when one starts with these words,it is mostly a blind-faith, and that one is not going to change it even if most reasonable arguments and evidences are given. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Well FYI I do believe he and many other Messiahs were crucified. But nor raised from the dead.

I agree with one.
One who dies does not return to this earthly life again and Jesus was not an exception to it.

Regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

I understand, while I read Kitab-i-Iqan, that neither Bahaullah nor Shoghi Effendi nor their followers understood Pauline-Christianity in its true colors. One may like to read "Pagan-Christianity" to have its glimpses.
Pagan Christianity - Wikipedia
It has nothing to do with Jesus , Mary and teachings of Jesus. One may like to read what is written in Quran about Jesus and Mary, quite some chapters, no compulsion however.

Regards

I'm very familiar with the Surah of Maryam, as I am with the Baha'i writings and the New Testament. I'm well acquainted with the arguments.

Execution by crucifixion in Christ's time simply fits with established history.

Crucifixion - Wikipedia

Here is the record from the Gospel of Mark about the crucifixion.

And they compel one Simon a Cyrenian, who passed by, coming out of the country, the father of Alexander and Rufus, to bear his cross.
And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of a skull.
And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
And the superscription of his accusation was written over, The King Of The Jews.
And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Mark 15:21-32

The gospel accounts are clear. Romans crucified criminals and that is exactly what they did to Christ. There is not one verse in the entire Bible that contradicts this. Historians agree.

 

[cataway]

oh he died . but on a cross ? or was it a pole no cross bar ? like this

 

[whirlingmerc]

Does it matter if Jesus came back to life if one loves God and is obedient? Frankly, in my life, those who believe he came back to life and believe the things he said and did have not proven it by their changed lives.

It matters if God recieves a satisfaction for sins for all the people of all time who would be redeemed.