Was Jesus Eaten By Dogs?

[outhouse]

I wouldnt go so far as to say wealthy women supported him. Jesus was a por man going from town to town living on handouts.

Im not sure how much truth there is in jesus telling his followers to give up everything and travel poor without beggar bowls either.

jesus movement was self supporting as I believe he was preaching for the common man and would have been accepted in most poor villages.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I wouldnt go so far as to say wealthy women supported him. Jesus was a por man going from town to town living on handouts.

Im not sure how much truth there is in jesus telling his followers to give up everything and travel poor without beggar bowls either.

jesus movement was self supporting as I believe he was preaching for the common man and would have been accepted in most poor villages.

O god neither would I.

I think that the community that produced the tradition of Jesus being supported by women were honoring their own patronesses. Jesus (early) didn't have wealthy women supporting him -- the church did (later).

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

me too.



but you see luke's audience was a greco/roman audience.
Women in Ancient Rome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm fairly well aware of the attitudes and treatment towards women in the classical era. I even wrote a paper with this focus for the KM Awards as a sophmore: Protofeminist or Misogynist? Medea as a case study of gendered discourse in Euripidean Drama
Granted, the greeks were worse than the romans, but there's a reason why there was no feminine equivalent to the roman paterfamilias. And the legal reforms concerning marriage and property were met with more than a little hostility. To quote Livy (quoting someone else): "Romans, if we would get alone without a wife, we would abstain from such annoyance." Plautus' plays reflect almost the same level of sexism as the Greeks. Almost without exception, women always had a male guardian (whether under the paterfamilias or in manu to a husband). There were educated women, women with political influence, but always unofficial or generally met with social disapproval.

other than the gospel writers?

What else might we need? We use Aristophanes' plays when it comes to the historical socrates, and they are dramatic works of fiction. The authors of the gospels were at least concerned with history (among other things). Luke in particular writes in this way. Look his opening.

 

[outhouse]

The authors of the gospels were at least concerned with history (among other things).

false

they were creating


were talking about what amounts to jesus enemies giving their personal version of jesus.

written for a roman audience, accurate history was not on the plate

 

[angellous_evangellous]

There were educated women, women with political influence, but always unofficial or generally met with social disapproval.

Yet educated and/or wealthy women were honored by both Greeks and Romans (doctors, athletes, and patronesses come to mind). In the area around Corinth, there is Junia Theodora and Metrodora who were honored for supporting entire cities.

note: Pleket, Epigraphica II (only Greek)

Lefkowitz and Fant, Women's Life in Greece and Rome (a sourcebook in translation)

Imagining the lives of women primarily through literary evidence (eg., poets, philosophers, and other writers like Pliny and Plutarch) is a huge mistake.

 

[outhouse]

Imagining the lives of women primarily through literary evidence (eg., poets, philosophers, and other writers like Pliny and Plutarch) is a huge mistake.

agreed


and you know your women, didnt you do your paper on women in antiquity ?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I wouldnt go so far as to say wealthy women supported him. Jesus was a por man going from town to town living on handouts.

Im not sure how much truth there is in jesus telling his followers to give up everything and travel poor without beggar bowls either.

jesus movement was self supporting as I believe he was preaching for the common man and would have been accepted in most poor villages.

Why not? The Pharisees were doing the same thing. They had the patronage of wealthy women and probably Jesus did too

 

[angellous_evangellous]

agreed


and you know your women, didnt you do your paper on women in antiquity ?

Yes. My dissertation is on philosophically educated women, and I situated them in their educational context: with female doctors, poets, rhetors, athletes, patronesses and supporters of philosophy, etc.

I made great use of literary evidence, but always contextualized by inscriptions, archaeological evidence, papyri, and so on.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Why not? The Pharisees were doing the same thing. They had the patronage of wealthy women and probably Jesus did too

(sources?)

I wouldn't think that the Pharisees would need financial support.

The problem with Jesus being supported by wealthy women is that it simply does not set in his context.

The Pharisees are a false parallel because they were already organized AND they were not a subversive sect. Jewish women could support a Jewish cause.

The Jesus followers were unorganized and poor: there was nothing to support. And a (wise) wealthy women would not support a person of this nature. Furthermore, wealth could protect him from being antagonized by the Romans. In other words, if he had the level of support that the Gospel describes, his patronesses could pool their influence and protect him from crucifixion.

 

[outhouse]

Why not? The Pharisees were doing the same thing. They had the patronage of wealthy women and probably Jesus did too

the pharisee's survived ripping the people off . Not as bad as the Sadducee's but still a political power


In Galilee, how many people do you think were wealthy??? jesus lived a life that below a peasant. he was poor. He had poor friends.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

(sources?)

Ehrman

 

[CynthiaCypher]

the pharisee's survived ripping the people off and working for the bank.


In Galilee, how many people do you think were wealthy??? jesus lived a life that below a peasant. he was poor. He had poor friends.

The Pharisees weren't power players, they were just a sect, They were at differences with the Sadducees who did control the temple

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Yet educated and/or wealthy women were honored by both Greeks and Romans (doctors, athletes, and patronesses come to mind). In the area around Corinth, there is Junia Theodora and Metrodora who were honored for supporting entire cities.

But look what happened to Hypatia!

Lefkowitz and Fant, Women's Life in Greece and Rome (a sourcebook in translation)

Yeah we were assigned this (along with Women in the Classical World) for Roman Women (one of two classics courses I took in my whole undergraduate career, but as none of the professors were linguists, all of the Greek and Latin classes focused on classical culture, literature, thought, etc. When I took Epic Greek, the only way I convinced my professor to write another paper on linguistics was to agree to write an additional paper on the Homeric concept of mind/soul/body (I'd had him the semester before for Greek Oratory and he had to read through 30 pages of my paper Epistemic Modality in Classical Greek, so when I told him I wanted to write my final paper for Epic Greek on evidence in Homer supporting the hypothesis that Pre-IE was an active/stative language, he just stared at me).

Imagining the lives of women primarily through literary evidence (eg., poets, philosophers, and other writers like Pliny and Plutarch) is a huge mistake.

I don't. One of my professors specialized in epigraphy. I actually met Lefkowitz through her. So in addition to secondary literature I've read a fair amount of secondary quotations, scrawls on brothels, letters, etc. Actually, the collections I have of greek and latin letters as well as greek and latin oratory were central to my senior thesis.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Ehrman

Which one? He's written more than half a dozen books.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

But look what happened to Hypatia!

That was later.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I don't. One of my professors specialized in epigraphy. I actually met Lefkowitz through her.

Well I met Ehrman on my own. :angel2:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Ehrman

Ya know what - I ask for a source because we know almost nothing about the Pharisees. To nail them down with certainty is tough, because the Pharisees weren't around all that long and it would be a stroke of pure luck to find a first century examples. Or even one.

I believe that the Pharisees were in one location - Jerusalem - and they were a lay movement that was not organized into something like a synagogue, which we know women supported. But if they did not regularly meet together like a collegia, there would be no evidence that survived.

I would guess that you're confusing 2nd century synagogues outside of Jerusalem with Pharisees in the first century in Jerusalem.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Yes. My dissertation is on philosophically educated women, and I situated them in their educational context: with female doctors, poets, rhetors, athletes, patronesses and supporters of philosophy, etc.

I made great use of literary evidence, but always contextualized by inscriptions, archaeological evidence, papyri, and so on.

But might not this focus bias (and I don't mean that in the typical negative sense) your conception of Roman women? If I recall correctly, you were looking for information to understand how Paul's letters would have been understood at a philosophical level by women at the time. Correct me if I'm way off base, but wouldn't that mean spending a lot of time on sources about educated women (among much else), but less on the general treatment of women? In other words, given the massive amount of primary sources you must have gone through, wouldn't it tend to contain a lot more about educated women and references to women's education, and significantly less on the general attitude of men toward's women and the overall social structure? I've read a fair amount of NT research, but I'm coming at it with a classics background, and I know for me this is tends to bias me in certain ways. Same with my current field. I'm coming at cognitive science from a cognitive linguistics and dynamical systems perspective, rather than the classical model the head of my lab supports (only natural, seeing as he was one of those highly influential in developing it and has been publishing for the last 50 or so years).

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Which one? He's written more than half a dozen books.

Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium

Yes, I see it, page 89. The only evidence that Ehrman gives for this is women in Herod's court AND GIVES NO REFERENCE.... and he notes that no other rabbis had women followers - much less supporters.