Was Jesus' Mother ever called Mary Christ?

[Awoon]

If there was a Jesus Christ then there has to be a Mary Christ, Joseph Christ, God Christ.

Can any Scholar answer the question?

 

[lovemuffin]

"Christ" isn't a surname, it is a title. "the anointed one". It refers first of all to the Messiah of 2nd temple period Judaism's expectation, although arguably it came to mean something a little more than that under Greek influence. But it is never a surname. When the gospels want to give Jesus a fuller proper name, rather than a title, they call him Jesus of Nazareth. (c.f. Matthew 26:71, Luke 18:37, John 18:5)

See also Χριστός - Wiktionary

 

[Awoon]

"Christ" isn't a surname, it is a title. "the anointed one". It refers first of all to the Messiah of 2nd temple period Judaism's expectation, although arguably it came to mean something a little more than that under Greek influence. But it is never a surname. When the gospels want to give Jesus a fuller proper name, rather than a title, they call him Jesus of Nazareth. (c.f. Matthew 26:71, Luke 18:37, John 18:5)

See also Χριστός - Wiktionary

Really? In the JW Christian thread some will disagree.

 

[lovemuffin]

Well, someone has to disagree with everything

I'm not finding great external references that explain the meaning of "Christ" over against the idea of a surname. Although basically any reference you check will give the definition of "anointed", reference that it is used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew Mashiah (Messiah), and that it was used as a title for Jesus. I have heard that at some point various Christian groups have treated it more like a proper name, but to the best of my knowledge it's a clear anachronism. 1st century jewish families didn't have dedicated surnames, but used the patronymic, i.e "Jesus, son of Joseph" (c.f. John 6:42) or "James, son of Zebedee" (Mark 1:19-20). See also: Judaism 101: Jewish Names

So at least at the time she was alive, Mary would not have been called Mary Christ. Mary, mother of Christ perhaps, later on, but again the reference is to the title "Messiah", rather than to a family name.

 

[Levite]

"Christ" isn't a surname, it is a title. "the anointed one". It refers first of all to the Messiah of 2nd temple period Judaism's expectation, although arguably it came to mean something a little more than that under Greek influence. But it is never a surname. When the gospels want to give Jesus a fuller proper name, rather than a title, they call him Jesus of Nazareth. (c.f. Matthew 26:71, Luke 18:37, John 18:5)

See also Χριστός - Wiktionary

Yes, indeed. Well said.

In fact, there were no surnames at that time in Jewish culture (or in most other cultures in that area). Generally, if people needed to identify someone by more than their given name, it was usually by patronym ("son of..." or "daughter of..."), although that seems to be a bit of an issue for Jesus. But if not by patronym, then either by place name ("So-and-so of City X," or "So-and-so of Region Y"), or by referent to occupation, or by some distinguishing physical feature. So, for example, amongst the Rabbis of that time, we have names like Rabban Shimon ben [son of] Gamliel, and Rabbi Yossi ha-Glili ["the Galilean"], and Rabbi Yochanan ha-Sandlar ["the sandal maker"], and just a little later one named Abba Arikha ["Abba the Tall"].

The Greek Χριστός (Xristos, or Christos) is a translation for the Hebrew משיח (mashiach), both of which do mean "anointed," in the sense that such a word was used to refer to a king or warleader, since the original concept of a messiah in Judaism was a political leader who would restore the Davidic kingship, help reinforce observance of the commandments and worship of God, and throw off the yoke of foreign rulers, returning Israel to independence, peace, and power. The concept has evolved a little in Judaism, but it was changed radically in Christianity, coming to mean something altogether different, so the title "Christ" is really not at all the same thing as "mashiach."

Presumably Jesus would not have been referred to in his lifetime as Christos, though he does seem to have been one of the multitudes of messiah claimants running around ancient Israel during that period. Amongst his followers, who no doubt believed his claims, he might have been referred to using the word mashiach, but amongst others, or when his followers were in conversation with others, he was probably referred to as Yeshuah ha-Notzri (Jesus of Nazareth) or by some nickname that suited him based on physical appearance (since he apparently gave up any kind of regular employment to become an itinerant preacher), or maybe something like Yeshua ha-Glili (Jesus the Galilean). Or, perhaps what is an issue for his later followers was simply not an issue for him and his followers of the time, and he was referred to as Yeshuah ben Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph).

 

[lovemuffin]

Please read and comment on Post#21 & #25 in the thread "Are JW's Christians."

It may have STARTED out as merely a title, however, now it is a proper name for a specific individual.

Mestemia is making the point that, speaking historically, the title "Messiah" or "Christ" has become so closely associated with one particular individual, "Jesus of Nazareth", that it has become de facto a proper name. I don't disagree with that observation. Although it might be fair to note that Jews probably would disagree with it to the extent that it implies that Jesus is "Messiah" and that there could be no other.

However, even leaving that aside, a "proper name" is not the same as a surname or a family name. "Christ" may, within the predominant western culture, refer unequivocally to Jesus, but it does so for its own peculiar historical reasons, and those very reasons explain why it is not also a family name. After all, "Christ" clearly doesn't refer to Mary. In other words, the meaning of "proper name" is that such a noun refers to a unique entity. That's not the same thing as a family name. It's not correct, either as a matter of grammar and usage, or historically, to refer to "Mary Christ", even though it is reasonable to describe "Jesus Christ" as a proper name.

 

[Levite]

Please read and comment on Post#21 & #25 in the thread "Are JW's Christians."

I believe the poster in question is trying to indicate that today, "Jesus Christ" is colloquially used as a proper name for Jesus. And he is correct, many people do use the combination of names as such, now. Which does not have any relevance to what it originally meant, and how names and titles were used in the era in which Jesus lived, and in which his later followers wrote of him.

 

[roger1440]

If there was a Jesus Christ then there has to be a Mary Christ, Joseph Christ, God Christ.

Can any Scholar answer the question?

Hmm, I suppose the middle name of John The Baptist was "the" and his last name was "Baptist".

 

[JayJayDee]

Really? In the JW Christian thread some will disagree.

Can't find it....can you link please?

 

[Awoon]

Can't find it....can you link please?

Read post 7 & 8.

 

[Awoon]

Hmm, I suppose the middle name of John The Baptist was "the" and his last name was "Baptist".

Absolutely. Simon "Peter" was known as Rock Head. Everyone back then had nicknames because they didn't have programs with the characters real names in it to protect the innocent.

 

[JayJayDee]

Read post 7 & 8.

I asked for a link to the thread....can you please provide one? Or at least tell me what forum it is in.

 

[metis]

Absolutely. Simon "Peter" was known as Rock Head. Everyone back then had nicknames because they didn't have programs with the characters real names in it to protect the innocent.

"Shimon" (his Hebrew name) was changed to "Kephas" (Aramaic) but then translated into Koine Greek as "Petros" ("Peter" in English).

 

[Awoon]

"Shimon" (his Hebrew name) was changed to "Kephas" (Aramaic) but then translated into Koine Greek as "Petros" ("Peter" in English).

Yeah, it means Rock Head in Aramaic. Also thick head, numbskull and hardhead. Peter was slow to learn and hard headed. Not Dove Like his name Shimon means.

How many Jews would name their Son "Peter?"

 

[RabbiO]

Off the top of my head I can name three rabbis, including myself, whose names are Peter. And if I was not sitting in a waiting room right now I could probably name more as well as other Jews I know with that name. Apparently you don't get out much!

 

[BSM1]

Hmm, I suppose the middle name of John The Baptist was "the" and his last name was "Baptist".

Or like my five-year-old grandson mistakenly called him- "John the Baddest".

 

[Politesse]

Mary has had many titles of her own though. One that is very important historically is Maria Theotokos, Mary the Godbearer. She is also called the Queen of Heaven, Mary of Divine Grace, The Lily Most Chaste, quite a few others throughout the world and through history.

 

[Awoon]

Off the top of my head I can name three rabbis, including myself, whose names are Peter. And if I was not sitting in a waiting room right now I could probably name more as well as other Jews I know with that name. Apparently you don't get out much!

I get out just fine thank you. "Peter" means Numbskull according to the Aramaic Scholar Rocco A. Errico. I like his translation.

 

[Levite]

I get out just fine thank you. "Peter" means Numbskull according to the Aramaic Scholar Rocco A. Errico. I like his translation.

I'd probably want to render it into the idiom of our modern English-language nicknames as "Rocky."

 

[Desert Snake]

If there was a Jesus Christ then there has to be a Mary Christ, Joseph Christ, God Christ.

Can any Scholar answer the question?

Yes, I believe she was. However, I don't have a source, or link to that occurrence/s/.