Was Jesus Original?

[Adriel]

Records of the Egyptian god Horus have been proven to predate Christ. The two are remarkably similar. I know that some will argue that there are multiple records of Horus so they are not original, but all records of Horus have been proven to predate Jesus. Below are some (most i think) of the similarities between the two.

-born to a virgin
-father a supernatural entity
-foster father of royal descent
-birth announced by angels
-shepherds saw him first at birth
-3 others came later
-birth heralded by a star
-birth date is unknown but celebrated late december
-a leader (Herut for horus, Herod for jesus) tried to have him killed as a child
-theres no record of his life from age 12 to 30
-he stilled the sea
-he walked on water
-cast out demons
-healed the sick
-gave sight to the blind
-he was baptised in a river, and the baptist died from beheading
-he was crucified with 2 thieves
-descended to hell and rose 3 days later
-a woman first found his empty tomb
-hes coming back someday to rule for 1000 years
-he is the savior of humanity
-he was known as:
-the annointed one, the
-the good shepherd
-the lamb of god
-the son of man
-the word
-associated with a sign of a fish
-he was transfigured on a mountain
-one of his key addresses was the sermon on the mount
-and a common portrayal is his virgin mother holding him as a child.

To me this seems pretty damning evidence against the credibility of christianity. If anyone can disprove this, please post. I welcome any facts anybody has to offer. Just please refrain from the ever popular argument that Jesus was real because you feel him in your heart. Put a kid in a dark room at night and he feels the presence of a great many things that dont exist. The mind is quite powerful I appreciate anyfacts and opinions from every religious view. Thank you

 

[Francis]

that's very interesting. Could you post some links? Anyways, i don't know exactly how far i follow this answer, but it's at least AN answer, so...

There are virgin birth myths in antiquity, but the Virgin Birth of Jesus is not a myth. Nevertheless, it is a common debate point among the unenlightened and illogical to suggest that because certain elements of Christianity can be found in pre-Christian religions and philosophies that Christianity is just another spin-off from those notions in antiquity. In a very real sense, and certainly from an ontological point-of-view, nothing pre-dates Christianity. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth and NOTHING predates Truth; nothing pre-dates God who IS Truth. Christianity is merely the fullest expression and revelation of God to His children. It is not an off-shoot of anything, it is the "fullest expression" of the Truth that God always was; the "fullest expression" of God's revelation of Himself to his people. Ancient peoples, pagan peoples, peoples of other religions also have a small measure of the revelation of God. The knowledge of God is written on the hearts of all people. Knowledge of God has been revealed to all people through His creation as St. Paul makes clears in Roman 1:19-20 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Creation itself testifies to God (the Christian God). No one has an excuse -- not atheist, pagans, anyone. Creation testifies to the existence of God, but does not give the details of God's nature, economy, or salvation plan. Naturally, as God is seen in creation, primitive peoples who do not have the advantage of the revelation given by God to the Jews and to Christians, formed notions about God as best they could and saw God in the Sun and the Moon and in other objects of creation. They mistook creation for the Creator. This is still going on today in the New Age movement, witchcraft, pantheism, etc. These ancient people did the best they could with the knowledge they had about God. As a result tidbits of knowledge emerged that lead these ancient people to develop blood sacrifices, myths of virgin births, and all the variety of images and notions that peak at the truth but that did not come into full understanding until Jesus Christ. These ancient myths and notions and practices are not pre-dating Christianity, they are imperfect precursors and hints of a future understanding God's economy and salvation plan coming into full bloom in Christianity. Bottomline is that there is a connection between those ancient pre-Christian beliefs and Christianity. The connection is the fact and reality that there is one True God who created all things. There is but One Artist who creates with one brush and thus we see Him and His truth in all things. The ancient people got a peak at the brush strokes, but did not really understand them. Thus they formed notions based upon what they imagined given they did not have the fuller knowledge that we do. This explains the similarity. It is not a matter of Christianity as an off-shoot of ancient religions, or of those notions believed by ancient religions evolving into Christianity. It is a matter of ancient peoples trying to understand God (the same God we have as Christians) as best they could and in the process finding tidbits of Truth and little peaks into the nature of God. Those tidbits and peaks were not fully understood or revealed until God revealed Himself more fully to the Jews, and then even fuller still in Christianity. The complete and fullest revelation of God will not be given to us until heaven. None of this will likely convince your friend, but it is not for you to convince him, it is for you to express the truth to him. Plant the seeds of truth and commit him to prayer. Those seeds will hopefully grow and blossom some day, although you may not see the blossoming; it is enough for you to know that you planted the seeds.

So, if that helps at all, maybe... Peace! edit: sorry, i know it's a lot.

 

[Adriel]

A problem i have with your response is it's claim that nothing predates christianity. If Christianity is true and god does exist, then this statement is true. However with this thread i am not claiming that egyptian religion predates christianity as a whole, I am merely bringing up the often overlooked fact that records of Horus predate records of Jesus, an argument i have made on many occasion, but have never gotten a logical response from christians with. Yes the bible says that God was there in the beginning, and you can believe it if you want, I'm simply saying that it was written by a human hand, and whether or not that hand was motivated by divine will or personal gain and great imagination is up to debate.

 

[Father Heathen]

There are also a lot of uncanny similarities to Krishna, who also predates Christ.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If historical, he was probably more original (and more intelligent) than the OP.

 

[Father Heathen]

If historical, he was probably more original (and more intelligent) than the OP.

Do you ever tire of spamming empty, meaningless posts?

 

[Willamena]

To me this seems pretty damning evidence against the credibility of christianity.

Are you familiar with mythic motif?

The same evidence could be seen as entirely supportive of Christianity.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Do you ever tire of spamming empty, meaningless posts?

No, I rather like spamming empty meaningless posts like the OP. By the way, are you done whining?

 

[Adriel]

Are you familiar with mythic motif?

The same evidence could be seen as entirely supportive of Christianity.

I am not familiar with this. would you mind elaborating?

 

[ChristineES]

A couple of years ago, there was a thread here about how Jesus fit into the mold of a Yogi. I had to agree that He did. But that hardly, in my view, discredits Jesus- at least not to me.

In history, there are many similar people- and one never discredits another.

Welcome to the RF.

 

[Adriel]

A couple of years ago, there was a thread here about how Jesus fit into the mold of a Yogi. I had to agree that He did. But that hardly, in my view, discredits Jesus- at least not to me.

In history, there are many similar people- and one never discredits another.

Welcome to the RF.

I agree that throughout history there have been similar people, but never people that walked on water, were born to virgins, cast out demons, raised the dead, and they themselves die and rise from the grave. These arent exactly everyday occurrences...

 

[Willamena]

I am not familiar with this. would you mind elaborating?

Probably not well, but I'll try. Myths are spawned in a particular culture, but just as the culture does not have firm boundaries, the stories of that culture are not bound by territories or societies. They get shared and passed on, laterally as well as from generation to generation. Moreso, especially as a product of cultures with traditions that are passed on verbally, they evolve --taking in parts from neighbouring traditions and sharing parts with others.

The "motif" is a part of the story, usually a symbol or iconic bit, that is shared across cultures. As such, looking at these cultures historically we can assertain that the symbol that is shared with another culture also has a shared (or at least similar) meaningfulness in the context of the myth (the respective stories). Virgin births is a good example, as they can be found as far away as Mongolia and Japan (far away from the Mediterranean ones we're familiar with).

Joseph Campbell was a scholar who popularized Comparative Mythology as a serious field of study for inspired young athropologists. He has a few books and videos out --you may want to seek some out to learn more.
Myths-Dreams-Symbols

 

[Father Heathen]

No, I rather like spamming empty meaningless posts like the OP. By the way, are you done whining?

I wasn't whining, I just tire of your trolling and inability to substantiate your arguments.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I wasn't whining, ...

Of course you were ... and are.

..., I just tire of your trolling and inability to substantiate your arguments.

And there are others who will enthusiastically agree. Fortunately, they need only ignore my dismissive comments and concentrate on your far more substantive posts, a symbiosis that I'm sure you'll both find supportive.

 

[Copernicus]

Probably not well, but I'll try. Myths are spawned in a particular culture, but just as the culture does not have firm boundaries, the stories of that culture are not bound by territories or societies. They get shared and passed on, laterally as well as from generation to generation. Moreso, especially as a product of cultures with traditions that are passed on verbally, they evolve --taking in parts from neighbouring traditions and sharing parts with others.

The "motif" is a part of the story, usually a symbol or iconic bit, that is shared across cultures. As such, looking at these cultures historically we can assertain that the symbol that is shared with another culture also has a shared (or at least similar) meaningfulness in the context of the myth (the respective stories). Virgin births is a good example, as they can be found as far away as Mongolia and Japan (far away from the Mediterranean ones we're familiar with).

Joseph Campbell was a scholar who popularized Comparative Mythology as a serious field of study for inspired young athropologists. He has a few books and videos out --you may want to seek some out to learn more.
Myths-Dreams-Symbols

Willamena, you stated that, in light of all this, the OP could somehow be seen as supportive of Christianity. I'm reading exactly the opposite message here--that Christianity was something of a construct, like all of the other myths. Virgin births were very important symbols back in the time of the origins of the Christian mythos. Hence, Christians incorporated a virgin birth in their mythology. How does that support Christianity, which Christians do not take to be a mythology?

 

[cardero]

Was Jesus Original?
No. Kindness, forgiveness and love existed long before Jesus entered the scene.

 

[Willamena]

Willamena, you stated that, in light of all this, the OP could somehow be seen as supportive of Christianity. I'm reading exactly the opposite message here--that Christianity was something of a construct, like all of the other myths. Virgin births were very important symbols back in the time of the origins of the Christian mythos. Hence, Christians incorporated a virgin birth in their mythology. How does that support Christianity, which Christians do not take to be a mythology?

I guess that depends on what one imagines the symbols of Christianity are about. It's been my experience that the symbolism supports it. (And many Christians do understand their mythology.)

 

[Copernicus]

I guess that depends on what one imagines the symbols of Christianity are about. It's been my experience that the symbolism supports it. (And many Christians do understand their mythology.)

Again, I would think that a great many Christians would be insulted to have their religion regarded as mythology. They might not take everything in the Bible as the literal truth, but they do distinguish between mythology and their religious doctrines. For most Christians, Christ actually did live, and he was literally born of a virgin mother. The fact that virgin births of god-men were quite common mythological symbols in those days may be something of an embarrassment for them, but most Christians are not aware of the history. Some Christians in the past argued that the appearances of similarities between Christianity and some of the older religions were caused by Satan to discredit Christianity. That strikes me as the "most plausible" explanation, although I wouldn't actually consider it a plausible explanation.

 

[Willamena]

Again, I would think that a great many Christians would be insulted to have their religion regarded as mythology.

No doubt there are.

They might not take everything in the Bible as the literal truth, but they do distinguish between mythology and their religious doctrines.

As do I distinguish. However, myth plays an important part in all religious traditions. Too, its poetic presentation in metaphor is a brilliant method of portraying what is essentially ineffable.

 

[Adriel]

The theory that Satan planted the evidence of a christ like figure to fool christians is completely insubstantial. I know the Bible quite well, and I know the Bibles description of Satan, and while he is powerful yes, he would not have the power to travel backwards i time to plant historical evidence of someone creating a christ like figure long before christ allegedly walked on this earth. Also, he could not have planted the evidence at the time either because he would not have been able to see that Jesus would "walk on water" or be "born to a virgin" or all the other stuff that Horus and Jesus both did.Even if Satan exists, this theory does not hold water as Satan has limits.