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Was Jesus real?

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
All I want is the truth, and so far no mythicist has provided a decent explanation for the scripture we are left with. carries new math book is a Joke, Price and his 3 pillars are easily refuteable and he is a genius himself.

I myself personally have defeated all realers who have dared to engage me. And it has been passingly easy. The 'scholars' are especially easy to argue into the dirt. I don't even consider raising a sweat with those guys.

So it is concluded. There was no historical Jesus.

Sorry.

Why don't you consider moving over to the Robin Hood Game. There might be some action there on the Brit boards.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
The dates I posted above for the verses you think are about the Biblical Jesus.

You mean when Jesus was born and when he died, which aren't in any verses in the bible? You know why scholars say he was born around 4 BCE? Because he could have been born in 5 BCE. Or 6. The verses tell us about people like Herod which gives us a time interval.

I am well aware of the time differences - The facts are that even giving Jesus dates and extra 10 years either direction - he still would fall into the wrong time for these events.

Ingledsva said:
As to Nero - we have far more information from real people concerning real events corroborated by others. And we can trace back the Caesars, etc.

I just went through all of your evidence. That's you counter-argument? Repeating what you originally said? We have Suetonius who describes Caesar as a God, Philostratus who not only says Homeric Heroes were historical, but writes about Nero in another work: a biography of a legendary magician. Our accounts disagree, all were written after he was dead and the authors usually were born after Nero died. As for non-literary evidence, just like our literary evidence for Homeric heroes, we have art, statues, coins, etc., with mythic heroes and gods.

You think that because you can go to Wikipedia and copy some dates that this somehow means we have the evidence to support these dates? Wikipedia wasn't around in the 1st century. The details you posted came from specific sources. None of them were written while Nero was alive, some of them were written a century or two after he died, they disagree, most of the authors attribute divine status or miraculous feats to individuals they wrote about, and all of them include rumors and hearsay. Finally, all of them are problematic from a manuscript point of view because we are relying on a tiny number of manuscripts often around 1300-1500 CE and the manuscripts we know are flawed.

LOL! Didn't use Wiki. Used history sites, University info sites, and real books.

Ingledsva said:
As to Nero - we have far more information from real people concerning real events corroborated by others. And we can trace back the Caesars, etc.


That's exactly what we have for Jesus, only more. The gospels are very much like the sources you haven't read but from which the details you posted originate from, only
1) They are closer in time to Jesus than those for Nero. Paul, for example, was actually alive I knew Jesus' brother.
2) Mark was written aroung ~70 CE, making it unknown but likely that the author was alive when Jesus was. Either way, that's a 40 years difference, less than any real record for Nero.
3) The main source for Nero is Suetonius, who not only wasn't alive when Nero was, but attributes not only miraculous events to the Caesars, he attributes godhood as well.
4) We have four sources that are akin to Suetonius, the best source for Caesar, only unlike Suetonius, our earliest actual fragment of the NT dates to around ~125CE, and we have something like 7,000 manuscripts, papyri, codices, and other partial or full sources for the NT without even getting into the non-NT sources. By contrast, if you took all of our manuscripts for Nero and counted them, we'd have fewer than we do just of papyri scraps for Jesus.
5) The disagreements between the gospel narratives are rather small. The differences between the various (usually no more than a few lines) for Suetonius disagree entirely.

You've read what exactly? Something on the Talmud? How about something like:
Van Voorst, R. E. (2000). Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence. (Studying the Historical Jesus)

There are plenty of sources which go into some detail on the nature of the evidence. That's just one. And if you want to talk about the Jewish references to Jesus, then we have to include not just Josephus and the Talmud, but the work on understanding the transmission of the Talmudic material in works by Neusner, Vermes, Cohen, Herford, Geiger, etc.

Are you talking about the Talmudic material? Do you really not understand that the gospels belong to the genre of ancient historical biographies, and thus are sources themselves? If you don't think they should be used, then tell me why we should believe anything about Nero when we don't even know how altered our manuscripts, in which he is referenced or (in Suetonius' case) is the subject of an ancient biography, actually are. And explain why we should trust authors who claim that people like Moses, Achilles and other legends were historical people, or that the emperors were divine and report miracles about them or about others?

Because if you can't explain why we find the same type of content (miracles, magic, rumor, etc.) in our sources for Nero, then you have case.

You are repeating. Others have already pointed out problems with what you are saying and some of your sources.

I will just add this common sense -

Any historian worth his salt (outside Christian "historians") will tell you there is ample evidence for Nero; and any confirmable, reliable, documents for Jesus, are lacking.

Forgot to add that Neusner rejected Jesus in his writings, and he carefully explains why.

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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
LOL! Didn't use Wiki. Used history sites, University info sites, and real books.


You used all that just to write this:
We have a lot of info about Nero from documents sent back and forth, history of the Caesars, minted coins, art, etc.
His real name was Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, born Dec. 15 in 37 A.D.. He was the son of Agrippina the Younger. He was adopted by Claudius, and his name changed to Nero Claudius Caesar. He became Emperor in 54 A.D.

That's more than ridiculous but ok. It doesn't matter if you really did use all of that to obtain the above, you haven't given any sources. I don't just mean secondary sources, but what the primary source material is and why we should trust it.

I did go through that, and you have never responded to it.





Others have already pointed out problems with what you are saying and some of your sources.


What others and what sources? Here's one on what classicists and other historians have in terms of manuscripts we possess of classical authors (like Suetonius, Tacitus, Philostratus, etc.):

"Since no autograph [original] manuscripts of the classical authors survive, we are dependent for our knowledge of what they wrote on manuscripts (and sometimes printed editions) which lie at an unknown number of removes from the originals. These manuscripts vary in their trustworthiness as witnesses in to the original texts; all of them have suffered to some degree in the process of transmission, whether from physical damage, from fallibility of scribes, or from the effects of deliberate interpolation. Any attempt to restore the original text will obviously involve the use of a difficult and complex process"

p. 207 of Reynolds & Wilson's Scribes and Scholars: A Guide to the Transmission of Greek and Latin Literature 3rd Ed. (Cambridge University press).


In the 4th edition of The Texts of the New Testament (Oxford University Press; 2005) by Bruce Metzger and Bart Ehrman, we find: "the textual critic of the New Testament is embarrassed by the wealth of material. Furthermore, the work of many ancient authors has been preserved only in manuscripts that date from the Middle Ages (sometimes the late Middle ages), far removed from the time at which they lived and wrote. On the contrary, the time between the composition of the books of the New Testament and the earliest extant copies is relatively brief. Instead of the lapse of a millenium or more, as is the case of not a few classical authors, several papyrus manuscripts of portions of the New Testament are extant that were copied within a century or so after the composition of the original documents."

And we can even look at actual modern use of NT textual criticism:

Barr, G. K. (2001). A computer model for the Pauline epistles. Literary and linguistic computing, 16(3), 233-250.

Spencer, M., & Howe, C. J. (2001). Estimating distances between manuscripts based on copying errors. Literary and linguistic computing, 16(4), 467-484.

Royal, K. (2012). Using Objective Stylometric Techniques to Evaluate New Testament Authorship. Journal Of MultiDisciplinary Evaluation, 8(19), 1-7

Then there's the issue of the whether or not the gospels approach the quality of evidence we find in material for Nero (or anyone from antiquity).

As the example is Nero and our main source is Suetonius, let's see how much like the gospels his "biographies" are.

From p. 307 of Wardle's Suetonius on Augustus as God and man Classical Quarterly 62(1)

"The biographer, however, does present interesting perspectives on aspects of ruler cult, notably on the propriety of deifying women and of requiring a witness of divine ascension, and the reality of the godhead of Divus Augustus, despite also presenting much that is conventional for a Roman of his status, for example his treatment of divine honours received during an emperor’s life. Although in this article I will concentrate on Suetonius’ portrayal of Augustus, in connection with whom the most striking of Suetonius’ views are expressed, it is necessary to range more widely in order to determine how well Augustus fits into the broader framework of Suetonius’ views on a religious phenomenon that is one of the most distinctive features of Roman religion of the early empire."

That's your unimpeachable source for Nero. Suetonius, the historian, whose lives of the emperors more than once deified them and spoke of their "divine ascension" (and this after all four gospels were composed).

Then there's this nifty tidbit:



Any historian worth his salt
They would, including "Christian historians". But let's see what non-Christian historians do with what really is myth: the Iliad.
Latacz's final section of Troy and Homer: Towards a Solution of an old mystery opens with a reference to a chapter from Bryce's The Kingdom of the Hittites: "In 1998 one of the leading Hittite scholars, Trevor Bryce, attempted to collate some of these facts, if far from all, in order to present a general picture in a separate chapter of his book, The Kingdom of the Hittites, which he entitled ‘The Trojan war: myth or reality?’ He concludes that there can no longer be any doubt that the story of the Trojan War has a basis in history".

Latacz concurs, and says of the Iliad's historicity that it "has not diminished as a result of the combined research endeavours of various disciplines during the last twenty years or so. Quite the reverse: it has grown ever stronger.
The abundance of evidence pointing precisely in this direction is already almost overwhelming...The earlier uncertainty dissolves and the solution seems nearer than ever. It would not be surprising if, in the near future, the outcome states: Homer is to be taken seriously."

So non-Christian historians find merit in using an epic poem composed centuries after the alleged story it tells (we're not quite sure which century it was composed in, but probably around the 8th). Homer continues to be the quintessential myth, and yet non-Christian historians think it a useful historical source.

By contrast, ancient historians didn't trust documents, even though they wrote them (see e.g., Rhodes' 2011 study "Documents and the Greek Historians"). Pliny (Ep. 2.3) asserts the superiority of a viva vox (“living voice”) over a written account. Quintilian not only agrees, but adds "historia…est proxima poetis, et quodam modo carmen solutum est/ history is close to poetry, and is a sort of poem unbound by meter.” 10.1.31

M. Grant, perhaps the scholar on ancient historians, refers ancient historians' "gross chronological distortions" and Mellor, in his book Tacitus, says the historian reported rumors even knowing they were false.

Even ancient historians were critical of their peers. Suetonius says of Caesar’s works that they're careless and inaccurate (parum diligenter parumque integra veritate). Biographer Diogenes Laertius tells us that Socrates, upon hearing someone reading Plato, exclaimed "ὡς πολλά μου καταψεύδεθ' ὁ νεανίσκος/ how many lies that lad tells of me!". So here we have a historian writing about people like Pythagoras, who lived ~1000 years before Diogenes Laeritus, and reporting that accounts of Socrates were lies.


I could go on. But I as I don't know what sources you find problematic, there's no point until you stop spouting nonsense about our sources for Nero and giving details without telling where they come from and how reliable they are.
 
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nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
Look at the dates. Neither of these could have been the Biblical Jesus.

The first could of course, be strung together legend, etc, put to paper for some reason, - as the date is 134 AD. The other though took place around 93 BCE.

Indeed, there could have been a real person named Iesous, but these verses are not actually about him. And even if there was a real person - that would not make any of the supernatural info in the Bible true.

*

Why couldn't the one around 93 BCE be what the Bible was based on again?

And i'm not arguing that it makes any of the supernatural info true. I'm arguing that it is very plausible that Jesus in the Bible was based off this character. Thus making him the historical Jesus.

And considering he was called a sorcerer, I would also assume that there were some sort of supernatural stories attached to him, otherwise why would they specifically mention that he was a sorcerer?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Citing scholars as in quoting their actual argument in their own words when discussing a particular aspect is one thing, but historical Jesus advocates here have been known to take appeals to authority to another level altogether, a level that is totally fallacious.

Sure. The fact that we have more evidence for Jesus than for just about anyone of antiquity is all a construct by that vast conspiracy of biblical scholars and classicists who repeat the same story about a historical Jesus for fear of being booted out of scholarship. However, the "quest" for this historical Jesus, at least according to the one (Schweitzer) who's responsible for calling it that, began with an attempt to undermine Christianity and by the time Schweitzer wrote his history of the quest in in 1906, we'd already heard most of the mythicist arguments, and Schweitzer covered their problems. In 1925, Maurice Goguel published Jésus de Nazareth: Mythe ou histoire? which again surveyed the mythicist position, only now included those like Drews and Couchould. In Metzger's bibliographic reference (Index to Periodical Literature on the Gospels), we can add other names, such as Dunkmann, Arkroyd, and Windisch. By now, pretty much every argument that continues to be regurgitated (due in particular to the internet) existed and was addressed repeatedly. After the 1920s, only a handful of scholars in any field questioned that Jesus existed, as we already had addressed this question and the arguments marshaled for it since around 1830. And mythicism was relegated to the amateurs who deliberately lied and misused what knowledge of the ancient world they had. Wells was an exception, as he was a scholar (albeit one of German studies), but he backed off of his position by Dunn's 1985 The Evidence for Jesus. Since that time, various works of varying quality have been produced with much the same goal: demonstrating the evidence we have and why no historians doubt that Jesus existed.

Then mythicism gained a new champion with Richard Carrier, the guy who flaunts his degree in ancient history yet has published almost nothing on the subject and the one major work he has published (his dissertation) is among the most speculative work I've ever seen. He also didn't bother to use his infamous "Bayes' Theorem" that he had already twice, in published works, advocated for any and all historical studies. Apparently, what he meant was that when he wanted to be able to dismiss historical studies, then they should have used Bayes'. But when he wanted his PhD in ancient history, it was ok to reject his own methods because he was no longer dealing with his blog fans but people who had actually studied history.

However, mythicism has and will continue, because just like creationism, conspiracy theories, and every subculture which rejects the authority of the specialists and relies on whatever information supports what it is they believed in the first place, mythicists care only about Jesus not being real and will continue to approach the subject from that viewpoint.
Yes, and besides, what would a tautology be without appeals to authority?

Here is you claiming that I am appealing to authority. What authority? Either I wasn't appealing to any (but simply stating what I've learned from my research), or I was citing sources. How does that constitute fallacious appeals to authority?


Legion has called me a Christian fundamentalist too, so I know what you mean

This is a lie. I compared your modus operandi to Christian fundamentalists'.
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
This is crazy lol, citing scholars is a staple in any philosophical/religious/historical debate. Scholars are by definition, a person who has a lot of knowledge in a specific subject. AKA they have spent years of their life studying the things that most of us, in all honesty, have probably spent hours studying. And I hate to tell you, but all of them have an agenda, if they have published works, then their agenda is to make money.

Is it at all plausible that the Bible was based on a real person, but it has also incorporated numerous myths from different traditions as well? It would seem to me that this is the most plausible situation, and it would account why there is evidence for Jesus being a real historical figure, but also why you could make a case that that the story of Jesus was also a myth?

And ambiguousguy, I would love to see evidence of this unmeasurable IQ.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
Look at the dates. Neither of these could have been the Biblical Jesus.

The first could of course, be strung together legend, etc, put to paper for some reason, - as the date is 134 AD. The other though took place around 93 BCE.

Indeed, there could have been a real person named Iesous, but these verses are not actually about him. And even if there was a real person - that would not make any of the supernatural info in the Bible true.

Why couldn't the one around 93 BCE be what the Bible was based on again?

And i'm not arguing that it makes any of the supernatural info true. I'm arguing that it is very plausible that Jesus in the Bible was based off this character. Thus making him the historical Jesus.

And considering he was called a sorcerer, I would also assume that there were some sort of supernatural stories attached to him, otherwise why would they specifically mention that he was a sorcerer?

And why exactly would we, or Christianity, want to do this - just collect anything from any age that sounds like it MIGHT have a connection to someone named Jesus, Iseuse, Yeshu, etc?

For me it makes no sense - as they have stated that the NT is correct, and he did A, B, C, Died, arose, etc, within a certain timeline.

For Christians it would make no sense, as they are trying to prove Jesus was the Messiah awaited in the Tanakh, and whom we are told the story of in the OT. Collecting crap from nearly a 100 years before he was supposedly born, and 100 years after he supposedly died, from everywhere, would obviously prove their messiah story false.

Now obviously, many people over the years have connected this god-story to other Pagan god-stories, however that is a totally different subject, and again would make the Jesus story a fable.

You are forgetting that the NT names specific historic people in the story. That dates it for us.

*
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
You are assuming that the people who established Christianity as the state religion of the Roman empire were trying to prove that Jesus was the Messiah that was phrophesized in the OT. If this were the case, wasn't the Messiah's main purpose to liberate the Jewish people according to the Jewish elders? Why would the Roman empire try to establish this? Why would Roman leaders care about proving the fulfillment of a Jewish Prophecy in order to establish a unifying religion.

You are also assuming that Roman Christian leaders would not alter writings, and destroy others, in order to collaborate the story that they felt was most beneficial for them. It seems to me that Roman Christian leaders ordered many inquisitions over the years that ordered people to death, and order "heretical" documents to be destroyed.

Yeshu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read the first line of Critical scholarship in this article. It talks about how the writers of the Talmud disregarded chronology, and purposely embellished stories regarding Yeshua. Why would Jewish leaders go out of their way to make sure records of a man portrayed as the Messiah be accurate?

I personally, find it way more plausible, that there was a man named Joshua, that did some profound things. I would even say they were supernatural for that time period. Considering that supernatural for that time period would be totally different from what we consider supernatural today. Through "supernatural" acts, charisma, and eloquent speech, he gained prominence in the region. Rather than fight this new trend, Roman leaders decided to incorporate it into their socio-economic political agenda.

By stating that there was no actual person named Jesus, you are essentially stating that the Roman empire changed their entire religious practice, which I assume made them huge amounts of money, on a story that someone created with no factual basis. I find it much more plausible that they played on a growing social-religious trend within the empire, and incorporated myths from the various lands they conquered into the story in order to make it more accessable to people that they conquered.
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
And when did you say the different records of Yeshua in the Talmud supposedly occurred? I'm curious if they collaborate with my theory of Jesus being the son of Julius Caesar, just to add some more fire to this debate lol.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
And when did you say the different records of Yeshua in the Talmud supposedly occurred? I'm curious if they collaborate with my theory of Jesus being the son of Julius Caesar, just to add some more fire to this debate lol.

Dude, use "quote," we don't know what, or whom, you are responding to. :)


*
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
But let's see what non-Christian historians do with what really is myth: the Iliad.
Latacz's final section of Troy and Homer: Towards a Solution of an old mystery opens with a reference to a chapter from Bryce's The Kingdom of the Hittites: "In 1998 one of the leading Hittite scholars, Trevor Bryce, attempted to collate some of these facts, if far from all, in order to present a general picture in a separate chapter of his book, The Kingdom of the Hittites, which he entitled ‘The Trojan war: myth or reality?’ He concludes that there can no longer be any doubt that the story of the Trojan War has a basis in history".

That's what you and the Christian scholars are doing to argue for Jesus. The only difference is that you believe one and not the other.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's what you and the Christian scholars are doing to argue for Jesus. The only difference is that you believe one and not the other.

Right. Because the NT was composed by maybe one person or maybe more than one, composed several centuries after Jesus, and then written down a few centuries after that. Only it wasn't.

There is no miracle or legend in the NT that hasn't been said of historical people, from Alexander the Great and the Caesars to Tafari Makonnen/Haile Selassie. The article is not a particularly well-argued thesis, but it does highlight the importance of differentiating between myth, legend, magic, etc., and historical accounts of these. Haile Selassie was definitely a real, historical person, and so was Marcus Garvey. The Rastafarian movement/religion definitely existed as well, and definitely deified the emperor Selassie. Garvey was the prophet who foretold of this particular messiah.

"For the followers of the Rastafari religion, however, Selassie is a figure of devotion whose hagiography bears almost no relation to the historical figure, and even within his own lifetime Selassie was hailed by thousands as living incarnation of God. Indeed, for Rastafarians, Selassie was 'the Almighty on earth in the flesh of Man', 'the head of creation', 'the God of all ages', 'immortal', 'omnipotent', and 'the world's greatest political leader of the twentieth century' whose 'works for the unification of humankind, equal rights and justice are unparalleled'."

On Groundation Day, we are told "Brother George Huggins of Accompong, explained the enthusiastic welcome, 'it is hard to put in words what seeing this man, this great man, the Lord of lords, in Jamaica meant to us in the Rastafarian community. We had heard so much about him for so long.' On the tarmac, some waved palm leaves, some red, green and gold Ethiopian flags, and some blew the Maroon cowhorn known as the abeng in welcome. Everyone kept their eyes on the sky wondering when the plane carrying His Imperial Majesty from Trinidad and Tobago would arrive. Rain began to fall and the crowd continued to wait, hoping even for just a glimpse of the plane through the thick clouds that had formed.
When the insignia of a roaring lion and stripes of red, green and gold finally came into view, the rain stopped. People shouted, 'See how God stop de rain'. The sound from the crowd was deafening as masses of people rushed to get closer to the island's distinguished visitor. The crowd simply broke down any barriers that stood in their way in their eagerness to position themselves as close as possible to the 'King of Kings'."

Some believe he did not die, or rose from the dead, among the many other miracles he is said to have performed. The difference is that this happened mainly last century, when we had cameras and reporters and video cameras and radios and all kinds of evidence that this was a real human person whom other hailed as a messianic savior figure who worked wonders and was divine.

Nor is this the only person who has existed and been credited with supernatural powers. We have thousands of records in multiple languages from the days of the European witch-trials, and many of them are trial records. These accused witches were real human beings who were often brutally tortured before being executed. But their crimes involved supernatural feats and congress with the devil. Once again, we have historical people credited with the impossible.


The difference between the various historians who think there is something really historical about the Iliad and those who think that we can be sure Jesus existed are numerous. We have lots of records of cult leaders, prophets, wonder-workers, magi, wise ones, etc., across cultures and time. We not only have the Iliad, but commentaries, quotations, and even philosophical discourse about the epic from various authors in antiquity. For example, there are a few words in Homer that appear nowhere else in Greek literature, and we aren't quite sure what they mean. But we know that the Greeks of the fifth century and later didn't know either and did some ad hoc etymology to come up with what are almost certainly wrong answers. The Homeridae were professional "homericists" who recited the Homeric epics as a profession. The question is "how do we explain the evidences we have in the most plausible way?" For the Iliad, where we don't even know when it was composed, by whom, or how long before it was written down and how separated it is from the events it describes, and when we compare it with other cross-cultural epics we find similarities (meter and/or rhyme, stock phrases, epitaphs, etc.). So we really have no evidence about what is described other than the Iliad itself and what little we can glean from later sources, archaeology, and anthropology. But we do have evidence that this type of composition is a common cross-cultural one, and is neither intended to be history nor usually reflects any historical reality at all.

This is not true of Jesus. We are dealing with some anonymous authors and Paul, but we aren't dealing with some legendary past with legendary heroes written in a formulaic poetic style. We're dealing primarily with four ancient historiographical texts and a few other references all within the same century. Instead of lists of Athenian and Trojan heroes (Achilles, Hector, Paris, Ajax, Agamemnon, etc.) we find people attested to elsewhere. John the Baptist is described in Josephus. Pilate is described by Philo and we even have that infamous inscription. Caiaphas we now quite well thanks mainly to Josephus. Galilee, Jerusalem, Capernaum, etc., are real places. Our earliest evidence is letters sent to established Churches by a guy who was contemporary with Jesus, who knew enough about the Jesus followers to persecute them, and who travelled in addition to writing letters. This all started a few years after Jesus was executed. How is that, in a Hellenistic world where one of the few constants is kinship social structures tying every individual to a vast number of others and in which the spoken word was held to be more reliable than the written. This was true even among "people of the book". The origins of the Mishnah certainly go back to before Jesus, but they weren't written down until c. 200. The teacher of righteousness we know of only through the Qumran scrolls, Paul we know only through Acts and his letters.

Jewish religion is marked by a increasing monotheism, in which other gods become secondary and the imaginary over the years. So how did a Jewish movement spring up out of nowhere with a messianic figure who is described in detail and in terms of the places he went and people of note he ran into such that Paul can write to early Christians in places across the Roman empire, yet nobody thought to "hey, wait a minute. Your saying this is God's messiah? Says who?" Where did these pockets of early Christians come from? Jews just started to decide one day "hey, I'm bored with this monotheism stuff. Let's throw in a nebulous, divine-like figure and make thing interesting" and people all around Jerusalem and elsewhere simply said "great! sounds good." And when Nero blamed Christians for the fires, and when they were persecuted, they decided that this newly adopted religion that came out of nowhere was worth dying for?

If you remove Jesus from the equation, you're left with a great deal of evidence for a Jewish movement that, even though it separated from Judaism, so tied itself to Jewish scriptures that those, like Marcion, who sought to reject the Jewish god and the Jewish scriptures were held to be heretics. You're left with a religious movement persecuted first by other Jews like Paul and then by Romans that came from nowhere, has no parallels except in other historical leaders of movements, and a host of texts more numerous than for emperors all saying this one person, this Jesus of Nazareth the messiah, is their origin, but no Jesus to be that origin.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Why couldn't the one around 93 BCE be what the Bible was based on again?

And i'm not arguing that it makes any of the supernatural info true. I'm arguing that it is very plausible that Jesus in the Bible was based off this character. Thus making him the historical Jesus.

And considering he was called a sorcerer, I would also assume that there were some sort of supernatural stories attached to him, otherwise why would they specifically mention that he was a sorcerer?

It makes sense to me. I believe that best conclusion from all the evidence is that Mark was inspired by some man who lived maybe a hundred years earlier than his gospel Jesus.

But I wouldn't agree that it would make the earlier man 'the historical Jesus' -- but rather just the inspiration for Mark's Jesus.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It makes sense to me. I believe that best conclusion from all the evidence is that Mark was inspired by some man who lived maybe a hundred years earlier than his gospel Jesus.

But I wouldn't agree that it would make the earlier man 'the historical Jesus' -- but rather just the inspiration for Mark's Jesus.


Except that isnt what is written

What is written in general, deals with the last week of a mans life and death at passover, and hi ssacrifice for the common man. That is the theme, that deosnt ressemble a man 100 years previous.


If a legend had generated that long in jewish circles, it would have remained Jewish, and or bear similarities where we could see parallels. But we dont. What we do see is Parallales to the Emperors divinity more often then not.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
Except that isnt what is written

What is written in general, deals with the last week of a mans life and death at passover, and hi ssacrifice for the common man. That is the theme, that deosnt ressemble a man 100 years previous.

I think that in order to understand this, you would need to attempt yourself the writing of fiction. I've done a good bit of that. The way it works is that i get an idea for a story (setting Christ as a Jewish messiah in 1st-century Judea) and I might then sit and imagine. Into my mind comes the ratty preacher from 93 BCE named Yesu, about whom the Jews are always talking.

So I decide to name my Jewish messiah "Jesus." And to use some of the old material about the 93BCE guy and bring it up to date with my own Christ theology and use my limited knowledge of 30 CE Jerusalem to write a story about Jesus Christ, the disciple-collecting, miracle-doing Jewish messiah.

There isn't the least need for my 'theme' to match anything about the 93BCE Yesu. I am the writer. The 93BCE Yesu was simply a handy mold on which to sculpt my new Jesus.

If a legend had generated that long in jewish circles, it would have remained Jewish, and or bear similarities where we could see parallels. But we dont. What we do see is Parallales to the Emperors divinity more often then not.

Try to imagine how fiction writers go about their trade. Haven't you heard how Shakespeare would take some bit of old story or some character -- and then turn them into new and powerful stories of his own? He had no obligation to hold true to the ancient characters who served as his inspiration.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Why couldn't the one around 93 BCE be what the Bible was based on again?

And i'm not arguing that it makes any of the supernatural info true. I'm arguing that it is very plausible that Jesus in the Bible was based off this character. Thus making him the historical Jesus.

And considering he was called a sorcerer, I would also assume that there were some sort of supernatural stories attached to him, otherwise why would they specifically mention that he was a sorcerer?

Because those that argue that a historical Jesus existed says he was born around 4 BCE-1 CE and died around 33 CE.
 

I.S.L.A.M617

Illuminatus
Josephus has John the Baptist dying in 36CE.

Josephus has also been discredited as a forgery.

EDIT: Also, even if Josephus's writings hadn't been added onto by Christians; that still wouldn't fit the timeline of the Talmudic Yeshu, who died in 93 BCE...
 
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