Was Jesus really a Jewish rabbi?

[Skywalker]

Okay, I'll take this as: No, you don't have non-NT evidence for your definition of "rabbi".

Thank you, nice chatting.

It's similar to how the term priest has different definitions that range from priesthood of all believers to an elder.

Was Jesus a rabbi? | GotQuestions.org

During the first century AD, the word rabbi was used in a more informal sense than today. In Jesus’ day, the title “Rabbi” merely signified that a person had a reputation as a wise teacher or sage. Gamaliel the Elder, who taught Saul of Tarsus and who is mentioned in Acts 5:34–40, is referred to in the Mishna as a rabbi: “Since Rabban [Rabbi] Gamaliel the Elder died, there has been no more reverence for the law, and purity and piety died out at the same time” (Sotah15:18). We learn from John’s gospel that John the Baptist was also addressed by this title: “They came to John and said to him, ‘Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him’” (John 3:26).

So it seems undeniable that Jesus was considered a wise teacher and thus could be properly categorized as a rabbi, as the term was used in Jesus’ time. It wasn’t until after the destruction of the temple in AD 70 that the title of “Rabbi” took on a more formal meaning for those who were ordained in the rabbinic movement. As time went on, the definition of rabbi continued to evolve. So, yes, Jesus was a rabbi, as defined in the first century, but today He would not hold the same title, as defined in modern-day Judaism.

 

[Harel13]

It's similar to how the term priest has different definitions that range from priesthood of all believers to an elder.

Was Jesus a rabbi? | GotQuestions.org

a. Are you referring here to Jewish priests or Christian priests?
b. My whole OP was intended to explain why according to Judaism, what people like GotQuestions are incorrect in their definition of "rabbi", yes, even in Jesus's time.

 

[Skywalker]

a. Are you referring here to Jewish priests or Christian priests?
b. My whole OP was intended to explain why according to Judaism, what people like GotQuestions are incorrect in their definition of "rabbi", yes, even in Jesus's time.

Even in Judaism the definition of priest is relative. A rabbi is a priest in the sense of an elder, but not in the sense the cohenim were, so it't not a good term to use.

 

[rosends]

During the first century AD, the word rabbi was used in a more informal sense than today. In Jesus’ day, the title “Rabbi” merely signified that a person had a reputation as a wise teacher or sage. Gamaliel the Elder, who taught Saul of Tarsus and who is mentioned in Acts 5:34–40, is referred to in the Mishna as a rabbi: “Since Rabban [Rabbi] Gamaliel the Elder died, there has been no more reverence for the law, and purity and piety died out at the same time”

I'm trying to figure out the logic here that you get from this website:

1. Claim -- "Rabbi" was used informally
2. Proof -- Gamliel was referred to as Rabbi

How does the fact that someone is called "Rabbi" in the mishna prove that the word was used informally? Maybe that's the proof that it was only used FORMALLY -- he was called Rabbi while others weren't because he had attained that status conforming to religious law of the time.

 

[Skywalker]

I'm trying to figure out the logic here that you get from this website:

1. Claim -- "Rabbi" was used informally
2. Proof -- Gamliel was referred to as Rabbi

How does the fact that someone is called "Rabbi" in the mishna prove that the word was used informally? Maybe that's the proof that it was only used FORMALLY -- he was called Rabbi while others weren't because he had attained that status conforming to religious law of the time.

The word rabbi or elder or pastor doesn't have the connotations that priest has. Some Christians don't agree with the term priest because of the many connotations it has. The term rabbi also has nuances in its meaning. Was Jesus a rabbi? | GotQuestions.org

Answer: It is clear from the gospels that Jesus had a reputation as a Jewish rabbi (Mark 14:45; John 1:38). Peter (in Mark 9:5) and Mary Magdalene (in John 20:16) both referred to Jesus as “Rabbi.” Moreover, the Jewish ruler Nicodemus thought that this title was appropriate for Jesus: “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him” (John 3:2). Elsewhere, we see Jesus referred to as “Teacher” (Mark 5:35). According to John 1:38, Rabbi and Teacher are synonymous titles.

A rabbi (literally, “my master”) is a member of the clergy in the religion of Judaism. Rabbis often function as leaders of synagogues where they provide instruction in the Hebrew Scriptures and Jewish traditions. Rabbis preach sermons, interpret the Old Testament, and perform other functions similar to those of Christian pastors. While Jesus was never part of the official temple leadership, He was still considered a rabbi because of His ministry of teaching. Even the Babylonian Talmud describes Jesus as a teacher who had students (Sanhedrin 43a).

 

[Harel13]

Even in Judaism the definition of priest is relative. A rabbi is a priest in the sense of an elder, but not in the sense the cohenim were, so it't not a good term to use.

No...not really. A rabbi is a man of law and a leader first and a spiritual advisor second. It's for this reason that rabbinical tests were and are generally about halachic knowledge and not Jewish philosophy. The kohanim served in the Temple. They could also become sages, but these are distinct roles.
So I gather you were talking about a Christian priest, then?

 

[Skywalker]

No...not really. A rabbi is a man of law and a leader first and a spiritual advisor second. It's for this reason that rabbinical tests were and are generally about halachic knowledge and not Jewish philosophy. The kohanim served in the Temple. They could also become sages, but these are distinct roles.
So I gather you were talking about a Christian priest, then?

Even though priest means elder, there is the term pastor that also refers to an elder and it doesn't have the mediator-like connotations of a priest. The same exists within Judaism. Judaism 101: Rabbis, Priests, and Other Religious Functionaries

A rabbi is not a priest, neither in the Jewish sense of the term nor in the Christian sense of the term. In the Christian sense of the term, a priest is a person with special authority to perform certain sacred rituals. A rabbi, on the other hand, has no more authority to perform rituals than any other adult male member of the Jewish community. In the Jewish sense of the term, a priest (kohein) is a descendant of Aaron, charged with performing various rites in the Temple in connection with religious rituals and sacrifices. Although a kohein can be a rabbi, a rabbi is not required to be a kohein.

 

[Harel13]

Even though priest means elder, there is the term pastor that also refers to an elder and it doesn't have the mediator-like connotations of a priest. The same exists within Judaism. Judaism 101: Rabbis, Priests, and Other Religious Functionaries

How is any of this different from my post which you quoted?
Or are you saying we're in agreement?

 

[Skywalker]

How is any of this different from my post which you quoted?
Or are you saying we're in agreement?

Jesus wasn't a rabbi by the definition of Rabbinic Judaism but he was still a rabbi within Jewish Christianity. Judaism 101: Rabbis, Priests, and Other Religious Functionaries

A rabbi is simply a teacher, a person sufficiently educated in halakhah (Jewish law) and tradition to instruct the community and to answer questions and resolve disputes regarding halakhah. When a person has completed the necessary course of study, he is given a written document known as a semikhah, which confirms his authority to make such decisions.

 

[Harel13]

Jesus wasn't a rabbi by the definition of Rabbinic Judaism but he was still a rabbi within Jewish Christianity. Judaism 101: Rabbis, Priests, and Other Religious Functionaries

So, yes, you agree with me that the disciples borrowed the term "rabbi" from the Pharisees.
Thank you. It was tough getting here, but I'm glad to see that we are, in fact, in agreement.
Have a pleasant day.

 

[Skywalker]

So, yes, you agree with me that the disciples borrowed the term "rabbi" from the Pharisees.
Thank you. It was tough getting here, but I'm glad to see that we are, in fact, in agreement.
Have a pleasant day.

The disciples didn't borrow the term rabbi from the Pharisees because it already had an existing meaning of teacher or master.

 

[Harel13]

The disciples didn't borrow the term rabbi from the Pharisees because it already had an existing meaning of teacher or master.

Seeing as the Pharisees existed before the disciples, and seeing as the Biblical meaning of "Rav", from which the term "Rabbi" came from, originally meant in Aramaic "lord", and seeing as you've yet to provide extra-NT evidence that non-Pharisitical sects also used the term "rabbi", I'd guess that the disciples did, in fact, borrow the term from the Pharisees.

 

[rosends]

The word rabbi or elder or pastor doesn't have the connotations that priest has. Some Christians don't agree with the term priest because of the many connotations it has. The term rabbi also has nuances in its meaning. Was Jesus a rabbi? | GotQuestions.org

and this doesn't answer what I asked. I didn't mention "priest".

 

[Skywalker]

Seeing as the Pharisees existed before the disciples, and seeing as the Biblical meaning of "Rav", from which the term "Rabbi" came from, originally meant in Aramaic "lord", and seeing as you've yet to provide extra-NT evidence that non-Pharisitical sects also used the term "rabbi", I'd guess that the disciples did, in fact, borrow the term from the Pharisees.

Since a rabbi is a priest in the sense of an elder, but not in the sense of the kohanim, Jesus was a rabbi in the Hebrew language sense of the term. Judaism 101: Rabbis, Priests, and Other Religious Functionaries

Since the destruction of the Temple, the role of the kohanim has diminished, and rabbis have taken over the spiritual leadership of the Jewish community. In this sense, the rabbi has much the same role as a Protestant minister, ministering to the community, leading community religious services and dealing with many of the administrative matters related to the synagogue.

 

[Skywalker]

and this doesn't answer what I asked. I didn't mention "priest".

The nuances of the word priest explains why Jesus was a rabbi. Priest - Wikipedia

With the spread of Christianity and the formation of parishes, the Greek word ἱερεύς(hiereus), and Latin sacerdos, which Christians had since the 3rd century applied to bishops and only in a secondary sense to presbyters, began in the 6th century to be used of presbyters,[15] and is today commonly used of presbyters, distinguishing them from bishops.[16]

 

[Harel13]

Since a rabbi is a priest in the sense of an elder, but not in the sense of the kohanim, Jesus was a rabbi in the Hebrew language sense of the term. Judaism 101: Rabbis, Priests, and Other Religious Functionaries

I think you might be getting a bit mixed up with the terminology.
Let me try to assist:

Kohen - Temple worker. Takes part in the Temple Service.
Rabbi - Communal leader and man of law first, spiritual advisor second.
Melamed - Person whose occupation is teaching.
Darshan - Orator and/or man of exegetical study.

Note: A rabbi could also be a melamed and/or a darshan. A kohen could have also been a rabbi and/or a melamed and/or a darshan.

Priest - Religious communal leader, usually in terms of performing religious rituals.
Pastor - Christian communal leader, often in terms of spiritual guidance.

Now, out of these options, choose which one you think Jesus is and explain why, preferably with extra-NT evidence, please.

 

[Skywalker]

I think you might be getting a bit mixed up with the terminology.
Let me try to assist:

Kohen - Temple worker. Takes part in the Temple Service.
Rabbi - Communal leader and man of law first, spiritual advisor second.
Melamed - Person whose occupation is teaching.
Darshan - Orator and/or man of exegetical study.

Note: A rabbi could also be a melamed and/or a darshan. A kohen could have also been a rabbi and/or a melamed and/or a darshan.

Priest - Religious communal leader, usually in terms of performing religious rituals.
Pastor - Christian communal leader, often in terms of spiritual guidance.

Now, out of these options, choose which one you think Jesus is and explain why, preferably with extra-NT evidence, please.

Melamed and Darshan, but as the Messiah's role was to teach us how to live, Jesus was no less of a rabbi. Jesus was also like a pastor.

 

[rosends]

The nuances of the word priest explains why Jesus was a rabbi. Priest - Wikipedia

My post was about the inaccuracy of the claim you cited about the informal use of the word rabbi. Your statement here, that there are "nuances" of "priest" which explain ANYTHING about rabbi is irrelevant (but similarly unsubstantiated and logically suspect).

 

[Skywalker]

My post was about the inaccuracy of the claim you cited about the informal use of the word rabbi. Your statement here, that there are "nuances" of "priest" which explain ANYTHING about rabbi is irrelevant (but similarly unsubstantiated and logically suspect).

The nuances about the term priest also exist for the term rabbi. There are different traditions regarding what rabbi do. Judaism 101: Rabbis, Priests, and Other Religious Functionaries

it is important to note that the rabbi's status as rabbi does not give him any special authority to conduct religious services. Any Jew sufficiently educated to know what he is doing can lead a religious service, and a service led by such a Jew is every bit as valid as a service led by a rabbi. It is not unusual for a community to be without a rabbi, or for Jewish services to be conducted without a rabbi, or for members of the community to lead all or part of religious services even when a rabbi is available.

 

[Tumah]

the question is whether one can verify that reaping on Shabbat was not allowed already in the time of Jesus

You can see it from the story itself. Reaping isn't mentioned anywhere in the Torah as a melachah, but the author of the NT takes it for granted that it's prohibited. Otherwise, what are the Pharisees complaining about if it's considered permitted?