Was Jesus the Messiah?

[Ingledsva]

Does this necessarily mean to you that Jesus wasn't the Messiah? It doesn't to me

Well, according to the Jews, he didn't fulfil their messiah prophecies.

 

[Ingledsva]

Jesus was the Messiah based on
1. Miracles he performed
2. Fulfillment of Messianic prophecies connected with him
3. Timing of his arrival exactly according to Daniels prophecy of the '70 weeks'
4. Miraculous nature of his birth
5. His Resurrection
6. His prophecies concerning the end of the Jewish temple system and the situation in the world during the last days.
7. And Gods own declaration as heard by 3 witnesses on the night before he died...and as witnessed by John the Baptist when he saw holy spirit descend upon Jesus.

What prophecies?

We don't know that any of the other stuff actually happened.

 

[Desert Snake]

Well, according to the Jews, he didn't fulfil their messiah prophecies.

therefore........?
That means that He wasn't the Messiah?

 

[Ingledsva]

Therefore...

They don't match up.

And as stated by several - everything about Jesus is written after-the-fact.

Anyone here can do a search for this subject on a Jewish site - such as the Judaism 101 site - jewfaq.org/mashiach

 

[Caladan]

therefore........?
That means that He wasn't the Messiah?

I don't understand something. If you are not interested in information or opinions about the subject which are different from what you believe, why do you bother asking for our opinions at all?

 

[Desert Snake]

I don't understand something. If you are not interested in information or opinions about the subject which are different from what you believe, why do you bother asking for our opinions at all?

Excuse me? How did you possibly infer that from my comments?

 

[Desert Snake]

They don't match up.

And as stated by several - everything about Jesus is written after-the-fact.

Anyone here can do a search for this subject on a Jewish site - such as the Judaism 101 site - jewfaq.org/mashiach

I don't click on third party links, generally, you're going to have to explain it yourself.

 

[Ouroboros]

There were other "Messiahs" during his time. A messiah is an avatar. Someone who brings a new insight to faith. Buddha was a Messiah too.

 

[allright]

The history of Israel and the humam race is shown in the seven feasts of Israel.
When Jesus came the first time (as Gods suffering servant) he fufilled the 4 feasts of Spring - Passover, Unleavened bread, First Fruits, Pentacost.
We are now in Summer the time of harvest - people being brought into his Kingdom
When he returns(as victorious King) he will fufill the three fall feasts - Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles

 

[Desert Snake]

The history of Israel and the humam race is shown in the seven feasts of Israel.

How so.

 

[TheKnight]

The circumstances of Jesus' life fulfilled prophecies given hundreds of years before which no one could attempt to control or deliberately fulfill. Just a few are below:



Messiah was to be born at Bethlehem: Micah 5:1
Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10
Messiah would present himself by riding on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9
Messiah would be tortured to death: Psalm 22
Messiah would arrive before the destruction of the Second Temple: Daniel 9:24-27
Messiah's life would match a particular description, including suffering, silence at his arrest and trial, death and burial in a rich man's tomb, and resurrection: Isaiah 52:13-53:12

It's not about what Christians say he did. It's about what he didn't do. Everything the NT says about Jesus in regards to messianic prophecies could be 100% true and he still wouldn't be the Messiah.

That's not true at all as the lives of many Jewish people who have trusted Christ as their Messiah attest that the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments meet perfectly.

Any fool can attest to something about which he has no knowledge. For decisions, ideas, and behaviors to be reasonable, however, they must be based on some kind of logical reasoning.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Sorry about the mild detour, but I could not help but notice the following curious juxtaposition ...

Any fool can attest to something about which he has no knowledge. For decisions, ideas, and behaviors to be reasonable, however, they must be based on some kind of logical reasoning.

Vote Ron Paul 2012​

 

[yahdough]

Christ Jesus, WAS, IS, and WILL BE the Messiah.


1Tm:2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;:yes:

 

[nazz]

It's not about what Christians say he did. It's about what he didn't do. Everything the NT says about Jesus in regards to messianic prophecies could be 100% true and he still wouldn't be the Messiah.

According to the Jewish view that is correct. Christians have a different view regarding the mission of Messiah.

 

[TheKnight]

Christ Jesus, WAS, IS, and WILL BE the Messiah.


1Tm:2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;:yes:

I was, am and will be the Messiah.


See? I can do it to? I can mediate between God and men too, if they want me to. Although I think God prefers we just approach Him one on one directly.

According to the Jewish view that is correct. Christians have a different view regarding the mission of Messiah.

That's fine and dandy. But the NT argues that he's the Jewish messiah and attempts to make that argument on the basis of Jewish scripture. So while Christians might have imagined up a whole new concept of Messiah-ness to believe in, their book's version is quite obviously not the Messiah prophesied by the Jewish prophets.

 

[allright]

But then again this chapter(and not the only one) is about the return from the Babylonian Exile to Israel and of course Cyrus.

Oh wait you are reading Jesus into it.


Nevermind.

Than why did Maimonides (the greatest of the Rabbis?) in his letter to Yemen directly say Isaiah 53 was speaking of the Messiah

 

[nazz]

That's fine and dandy. But the NT argues that he's the Jewish messiah and attempts to make that argument on the basis of Jewish scripture.

Well it just says "Messiah", not "Jewish Messiah". But yeah, the Jewish Scriptures are used to justify that claim. But in other places the Jewish concept is questioned.

So while Christians might have imagined up a whole new concept of Messiah-ness to believe in, their book's version is quite obviously not the Messiah prophesied by the Jewish prophets.

That is somewhat debatable. I have yet to see any reference in the Tanakh that rules out a Messiah who dies, is resurrected, and completes the messianic mission upon his return. In fact a similar idea is advanced by Lubavitcher messianists.

But I like what Marcion wrote about this (though I have feeling you won't):

ANTITHESIS: Marcion and Contradictions Between the Old Testament Deity and the New Testament

III. The Two Christs​

The Christ who in the days of Tiberius was, by a previously unknown God, revealed for the salvation of all nations, is a different being from him who was ordained by the Creator God for the restoration of the Jewish state, and who is yet to come.

The Creator's Christ is to be a warrior, a bearer of arms, and mighty in war.
The Christ of the Good God, who has come, is a far different being from the Creator's Christ.

Isaiah's description of Christ in no point suits the Christ of the Good God. Isaiah's Christ is to be called Emmanuel (Isaiah 7:14); then, he takes the riches of Damascus and the spoils of Samaria against the king of Assyria (Isaiah 8:4). But yet, He who is come was neither born under such a name, nor ever engaged in such a war-like enterprise.

A Christ had come who had never been foreannounced, but the Christ predicted had not yet appeared. The Jews were themselves quite certain that it was some other who came; so they not only rejected Him as a stranger, but slew Him as an enemy, though they would have acknowledged Him, and with all religious devotion followed Him, if He had been one of them.

The difference between the two Christs, is that the Jewish Christ was ordained by the Creator for the restoration of the people alone from its dispersion, while our Christ was appointed by the supremely Good God for the liberation of the whole human race.

Who among the nations can turn to the Creator, when those whom the prophets name are proselytes of individually different and private conditions?

It is the Christ of the Other, Supreme God Who was driven to the cross by the hostile powers and authorities of the Creator. The suffering of the cross was not predicted of the Creator's Christ; moreover, it should not be believed that the Creator would expose his son to that kind of death on which he himself had pronounced a curse. "Cursed" says he, "is everyone who hangeth on a tree" (Deuteronomy 21:3, Galatians 3:13).

 

[InChrist]

I believe at this point in history it is too late for anyone to meet the requirements laid out in the prophecies of scripture which must be met for one to prove they are the Messiah.Jesus Christ has already fulfilled many of these requirements and will fulfill the remainder when He returns to rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem, Israel.

"There are more than 300 Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. Why? So Israel could identify Him, when in the fullness of time God would send forth his Son (Gal:4:4). The third chapter in the Bible contains the first prophecy of the Messiah's coming, His virgin birth ("the seed of the woman") and His destruction of Satan (Gen:3:15). The prophets declared that He must be of the "lineage of David" (Jer:23:5; 2 Sam:7:10-16 ; Ps:89:3-4) and rule upon David's throne. To prove that Jesus met this criteria, Matthew and Luke begin with the genealogy of Joseph and Mary.

Having rejected Jesus, the Jews still hope for their Messiah to come—but they hope in vain. Jesus Christ fulfilled Malachi:3:1 ("the Lord [Messiah], whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple") when He cast out the money changers and merchants (Mk 11:15). The destruction of the temple 38 years later in A.D. 70 made it impossible during the last 1,923 years for any would-be Messiah to fulfill that scripture. Moreover, all genealogic records were lost in the destruction of the temple, so a future "Messiah" would not be able to prove the necessary descent from David."


excerpt:
The Cradle & the Cross | thebereancall.org

 

[TheKnight]

Well it just says "Messiah", not "Jewish Messiah". But yeah, the Jewish Scriptures are used to justify that claim. But in other places the Jewish concept is questioned.

A book wherein the Jewish primary character says "I have come only to the lost children of the House of Israel" and characterizes himself using a Jewish concept (mashiach) wasn't actually talking about a Jewish mashiach? But some other kind of thing?

That is somewhat debatable. I have yet to see any reference in the Tanakh that rules out a Messiah who dies, is resurrected, and completes the messianic mission upon his return. In fact a similar idea is advanced by Lubavitcher messianists.

I agree. There is nothing conclusive that dispels the notion of a messiah who will die and return. The question we must ask ourselves is this: When the messiah prophesied by the Tanakh does come, how will we know and what will his message be?

The answer is there.


Truth be told, Jesus could be the messiah, the Rebbe could be the messiah. Perhaps, some other unknown Jew will someday rise from the dead and bring about messianic change to the world. That's all fantastic. But until such a day comes as we can say the messiah has come and done the messianic thing, there is no messiah.

You can't call someone the messiah if they came into the world and didn't make messianic changes (btw, that's how you know the messiah has come, when the changes have been made). Every time a Christian tells me "Jesus will come back and do those things" I respond with "Great, so we agree he didn't do them the first time and thus (at least as far as prophesy is concerned) isn't the messiah." When he comes back and does whatever it is they think he will do when he does, then we can believe. Until that time he was just a Jew who came, made a great noise, and died.

 

[nazz]

I should note I don't fully agree with what Marcion said.