gnostic
The Lost One
Speaking of infallible or sinless, I have started a new thread - Are prophets sinless, infallible people?
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Was Muhammad a good man?
- Thread starter kassault37
- Start date
kashmir
Well-Known Member
The quran was written by a false prophet, so of course it will contradict Jesus.
History itself completely proves the quran is wrong.
Jesus did in fact die on the cross and skeptics outside the bible confirm his death to have happened.
Mohammad came along a thousand of years later and pretty much called history itself to be of lies.
Just like now, people try to claim the Holocaust was made up, and some do make that claim by twisting what history tells us.
When we take the whole picture, everything that history tells us and what is going on today and add it all up, the quran crumbles on its own weight.
Mohammad was a false prophet, simply because he claims everything in history to be lies.
Historians know for a fact that Jesus did in fact die on the cross.
The evidence is over whelming and the word of mohammed does not hold water to that.
Plain and simple.
Might as well, claim that 9/11 never happened, and it would hold the same weight to truth as what mohammed said, none what so ever.
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
to farah
The infallibility of the Prophets ---
We Christians do not recognize of infallibility of the Prophets
The reason -----
All human beings are subject to the following law ----
A man doing sex -- with woman --
And Mohammed of these ---
That is why there is not a full human being ---
Even the prophets --- they doing the - mistakes in their lives---
No man is full -
Because he came from a sexual act --For this reason, the actions of our knowledge of their rights and say he was a good man or a is not a good --man-
Through fourteen point is the actions of Muhammad's say it is not a good man ---
Please be dialogue in these behaviors-
The infallibility of the Prophets ---
We Christians do not recognize of infallibility of the Prophets
The reason -----
All human beings are subject to the following law ----
A man doing sex -- with woman --
And Mohammed of these ---
That is why there is not a full human being ---
Even the prophets --- they doing the - mistakes in their lives---
No man is full -
Because he came from a sexual act --For this reason, the actions of our knowledge of their rights and say he was a good man or a is not a good --man-
Through fourteen point is the actions of Muhammad's say it is not a good man ---
Please be dialogue in these behaviors-
Scimitar
Eschatologist
Farah, learn to use the edit button... multi quoting your posts in a pain the left buttock.
See this is where you try to split hairs that don't split.
Your shia school claims infallibility - that would include "forgetfulness" so you can wax all you like, the bottom line is you are well green around the ears if you think you can hold your own simply from a shia POV here.
I've studied Shia school, and though I respect it, I find many things wrong with it - and this is neither the time nor the place to discuss that.
What i will discuss here with you is the "infallibility" issue.
As I have already demonstrated for you Farah, "infallibility" means not doing a sin, even in forgetfulness - humans are not created like the creation of the malaa'ika (angels). The angels are infallible, not human beings.
Also, I demonstrated to you in my previous post that no man is infallible, but you tried to weaken the understanding of the word "infallible" by interpolating "two types of sin"... lol? really sister, you need to use some logic here.
The very word "infallible" means - not able to make sin, make mistake, even in forgetfulness - a perfected human who stands to angelic standards...
...All the prophets simply claimed the same thing "I am just a man".
Now, let's in sha Allah, move on, shall we?
And you can look into the hearts of men to see if whether they are just doing dhikr for hasanaat? or if they genuinely mean their repentance?
Do you see how silly your argument is? and how it collapses under scrutiny?
If not, then I am wasting time with trying to better your understanding of matters which you yourself seem very unsure of.
I'm only trying to help.
Meaning what exactly? what purpose did you have in mind when posting this one ayat with no explanation... care to elaborate?
Tell you what sister, I will give you my elaboration on it - the ayat mentions that Allah desires to purify the following - All Muslims, The House of the Prophet pbuh, and to do this thoroughly... how does that help you to make a case?
Do you not see how you have misused an ayat of the Quran with no understanding as to its applicative context?
See, I'm guessing that you utilised this ayat in this thread to help part way make a point that "purification" leads to "infallibility" - - - *raises eyebrows
Do you know the nature of humans as described in the Qisas al Anbiyaa by Shaikh ul Islam Ibn Kathir?
or will you quite selectively not even take a look because Sunni scholars are anathema to Shiites? - please tell me you are not like those rafidi's.
And finally:
You're applying loose logic to something that cannot be determined by conjecture sister Farah.
Entertaining your ramblings will be counter intuitive for your benefit. I feel you are about to unleash an ego on this forum because I may have pinched a little too much.
Sister Farah, no man is infallible - did the prophet pbuh not say "Even I, do not know what is to become of me when Allah judges" ?????
Tell me sister Farah - how can you say such a thing after that?
let me put it to you like this, despite the examples i gave you in my previous posts - that no man is infallible, and despite the information i gave you as to the correct understanding of the word "infallible" - you still insist that 12 men whose identities are like oO are infallible?
You haven't done a good job of convicing anyone here, in fact, I feel that peeps here are now more sure that infallibility issue within Shia sect is something that is quite laughable to be honest.
Next time, bring one of your shia scholars here to debate. I refuse to entertain badly thought out logic and loosely understood ayaat in threads, with a fellow Muslim. I expect that from non Muslims.
Scimitar
See this is where you try to split hairs that don't split.
Your shia school claims infallibility - that would include "forgetfulness" so you can wax all you like, the bottom line is you are well green around the ears if you think you can hold your own simply from a shia POV here.
I've studied Shia school, and though I respect it, I find many things wrong with it - and this is neither the time nor the place to discuss that.
What i will discuss here with you is the "infallibility" issue.
As I have already demonstrated for you Farah, "infallibility" means not doing a sin, even in forgetfulness - humans are not created like the creation of the malaa'ika (angels). The angels are infallible, not human beings.
Also, I demonstrated to you in my previous post that no man is infallible, but you tried to weaken the understanding of the word "infallible" by interpolating "two types of sin"... lol? really sister, you need to use some logic here.
The very word "infallible" means - not able to make sin, make mistake, even in forgetfulness - a perfected human who stands to angelic standards...
...All the prophets simply claimed the same thing "I am just a man".
Now, let's in sha Allah, move on, shall we?
And you can look into the hearts of men to see if whether they are just doing dhikr for hasanaat? or if they genuinely mean their repentance?
Do you see how silly your argument is? and how it collapses under scrutiny?
If not, then I am wasting time with trying to better your understanding of matters which you yourself seem very unsure of.
I'm only trying to help.
Meaning what exactly? what purpose did you have in mind when posting this one ayat with no explanation... care to elaborate?
Tell you what sister, I will give you my elaboration on it - the ayat mentions that Allah desires to purify the following - All Muslims, The House of the Prophet pbuh, and to do this thoroughly... how does that help you to make a case?
Do you not see how you have misused an ayat of the Quran with no understanding as to its applicative context?
See, I'm guessing that you utilised this ayat in this thread to help part way make a point that "purification" leads to "infallibility" - - - *raises eyebrows
Do you know the nature of humans as described in the Qisas al Anbiyaa by Shaikh ul Islam Ibn Kathir?
or will you quite selectively not even take a look because Sunni scholars are anathema to Shiites? - please tell me you are not like those rafidi's.
And finally:
You're applying loose logic to something that cannot be determined by conjecture sister Farah.
Entertaining your ramblings will be counter intuitive for your benefit. I feel you are about to unleash an ego on this forum because I may have pinched a little too much.
Sister Farah, no man is infallible - did the prophet pbuh not say "Even I, do not know what is to become of me when Allah judges" ?????
Tell me sister Farah - how can you say such a thing after that?
let me put it to you like this, despite the examples i gave you in my previous posts - that no man is infallible, and despite the information i gave you as to the correct understanding of the word "infallible" - you still insist that 12 men whose identities are like oO are infallible?
You haven't done a good job of convicing anyone here, in fact, I feel that peeps here are now more sure that infallibility issue within Shia sect is something that is quite laughable to be honest.
Next time, bring one of your shia scholars here to debate. I refuse to entertain badly thought out logic and loosely understood ayaat in threads, with a fellow Muslim. I expect that from non Muslims.
Scimitar
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Scimitar
Eschatologist
But you do - Jesus was above humanity to you, he was a god to you... so you're wrong
So by that standard you hold Jesus to be superior? Because he was created without any male human intervention?
Well, in that case, swallow hard kid... Coz ADAM was created without a mother or father, and judging by your standard of logic, and train of thought - that would make Adam a super God above Jesus now wouldnt it? Holy crap - trinity just got more complicated
Say what? :thud:
Your logic is so weak, its broken kid.
Breathe before you think, get some air up there yes?
Scimitar
Eschatologist
Oh so you're an expert in history? GREAT!!!
Wait...
anyone see what I am seeing here? Look dude, there's stupid then there's ridiculous.
Muhammad pbuh didn't come thousands of years after Jesus pbuh :thud::thud::thud: you claim you know history - you should have known that... its religious history basics
FYI: Muhammad pbuh came 600 odd years only after Jesus pbuh. Not thousands of years.
Now tell me Kashmir ole fellow, how is one to take you seriously when you make claims which contradict themselves?
Your point wasa focusing on history being innacurate within the Quran - yet your own understanding of "time" itself, is in need of much consideration.
Take care bud, try and get some sleep.
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
to farah ---
this is the Verse 33-33--
<And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.>
my questions ---
do you understanding this quran text ---
you write part from this Verse
This verse, in which the orders to the women ---
The first is that sit in their homes ---
And do not leave their houses ----
The second that they do not use ornamental That women in Islam,does not put toiletries, and also wearing the hijab and niqab
this is the Verse 33-33--
<And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as [was] the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification.>
my questions ---
do you understanding this quran text ---
you write part from this Verse
This verse, in which the orders to the women ---
The first is that sit in their homes ---
And do not leave their houses ----
The second that they do not use ornamental That women in Islam,does not put toiletries, and also wearing the hijab and niqab
Scimitar
Eschatologist
Your understanding is wrong - read the tafsir of the ayaat in context to understand it. English translations are very weak. For example - only one word for love in English - over 60 in Arabic - dependant on the type of love being described. For example, the love a son has for his mother, is different to the love a man has for his horse, or the love a woman feels for her make up kit. Ya understand?
The Arabic language is rich, and full of amazingly descriptive ideas which pale miserably when translated into English. This is why it is necessary to read the Quran with exegetes if you are a non Arabic speaking person.
However, you did make a good point here, you quoted the Quran and that was enough to make farah think twice about "infallibility".
Scimitar
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kashmir
Well-Known Member
@Scimitar
considering the way you are replying to people, seems like you need a break from here and need some sleep.
I exaggerated the date, whippy doo, want a medal for noticing the obvious?
As for what history tells us, take that up with historians themselves, considering you know more than they do, why are you in a public forum and not teaching at Harvard?
Plus since thousands of historians are mistaken and you know more than them about Jesus and him dying on the cross, you have a Noble Peace Prize waiting for you. :yes:
considering the way you are replying to people, seems like you need a break from here and need some sleep.
I exaggerated the date, whippy doo, want a medal for noticing the obvious?
As for what history tells us, take that up with historians themselves, considering you know more than they do, why are you in a public forum and not teaching at Harvard?
Plus since thousands of historians are mistaken and you know more than them about Jesus and him dying on the cross, you have a Noble Peace Prize waiting for you. :yes:
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
to scimitar --
i am speak arbic and read and write ----
my understanding is not wrong---Koran explains the first through the literal text ----
And can not move to the interpretation or exegesis through diligence, but if we can not know the meaning of this text ---
For example ---
Letters at the beginning of each Sura thousand and L and M ----
This explains through exegesis
i am speak arbic and read and write ----
my understanding is not wrong---Koran explains the first through the literal text ----
And can not move to the interpretation or exegesis through diligence, but if we can not know the meaning of this text ---
For example ---
Letters at the beginning of each Sura thousand and L and M ----
This explains through exegesis
Scimitar
Eschatologist
You speak Arabic yet you write Quran with a K? Sure bud... I believe you (not)
As for the Alif Laam Meem letters, the Haa Meem, etc - these are for Allah to know, if you have actually read the Quran )and I don't believe you have) then you would have surely come across this ayaat:
"It is God Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are 'clear', they are the foundation of the Book. Others are 'allegorical' but those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: We believe in the Book, the whole of it is from our Lord. And none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." Al Imran ayat 7
And so, I don't believe you have even read the Quran. Spelt with a Q. Not a K.
As for the Alif Laam Meem letters, the Haa Meem, etc - these are for Allah to know, if you have actually read the Quran )and I don't believe you have) then you would have surely come across this ayaat:
"It is God Who has sent down to you the Book. In it are verses that are 'clear', they are the foundation of the Book. Others are 'allegorical' but those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: We believe in the Book, the whole of it is from our Lord. And none will grasp the Message except men of understanding." Al Imran ayat 7
And so, I don't believe you have even read the Quran. Spelt with a Q. Not a K.
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mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
The period of time between Muhammad and Christ 565 years ago ---
This is not a big problem ----
But the problem is that the Koran in which many historical mistakes ----
For example -----
Does not know the difference between Jacob and Israel ----
Note that the difference between them is written by Muhammad in the Bible ----
In the Koran does not know the difference between Mary, the sister of Aaron and Mary, Mother of Christ Joachim girl ----
There are many other mistakes
This is not a big problem ----
But the problem is that the Koran in which many historical mistakes ----
For example -----
Does not know the difference between Jacob and Israel ----
Note that the difference between them is written by Muhammad in the Bible ----
In the Koran does not know the difference between Mary, the sister of Aaron and Mary, Mother of Christ Joachim girl ----
There are many other mistakes
Scimitar
Eschatologist
You are a faker - so easy to spot. You don't know much beyond youtube, be honest, you don't even know Arabic - and if you do, its probably Syrian or Egyptian "Amiyyah" Arbi, and not the Fus'ha.
As for your claim that the Quran doesnt know the differences between prophetic figures - thats one stupid claim you've made which even the most ardent opposer of islam hasn't dared to make - why? because its a stupid claim...
...well done for putting your reputation into the dirt
Oh, and Mahsan - please stop lying.... I can spot a liar on forums by asking a few testing questions which if answered dishonestly, will conflict with your posts, and they have.
Young man, don't put yourself into a world of intellectual hurt. Go read about Islam from the correct sources. Time well spent.
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kashmir
Well-Known Member
Exactly. :clap
Scimitar
Eschatologist
Oh look, its the pat on the back brigade.... he is wrong Kashmir ole fellow.
Jacob and Israel lets take that one down first:
Jacob (yakub) was given the name Israel - hence when Jesus refers to Israel in the bibles - as in "HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD, GOD, IS ONE" - he is not talking to a piece of prime real estate - no..... but to the descendants of Jacob - the sons of Israel.
Surely you knew that? Or are the both of you really so stupid?
Secondly:
Mariam the sister of Haroon and Mariam the mother of Jesus pbuh are clearly cut apart as two women. One is named "the most pure woman" she was mary mother of Jesus pbuh.
Son shame on you for your weak and silly attempt - both of you should feel shame at your lack of logic and information....
and you mahasn, should feel really bad for lying out of the skin of your teeth. You don'#t speak Arbi. Liar.
Jacob and Israel
lets take that one down first:Jacob (yakub) was given the name Israel - hence when Jesus refers to Israel in the bibles - as in "HEAR O ISRAEL THE LORD, GOD, IS ONE" - he is not talking to a piece of prime real estate - no..... but to the descendants of Jacob - the sons of Israel.
Surely you knew that? Or are the both of you really so stupid?
Secondly:
Mariam the sister of Haroon and Mariam the mother of Jesus pbuh are clearly cut apart as two women. One is named "the most pure woman" she was mary mother of Jesus pbuh.
Son shame on you for your weak and silly attempt - both of you should feel shame at your lack of logic and information....
and you mahasn, should feel really bad for lying out of the skin of your teeth. You don'#t speak Arbi. Liar.
mahasn ebn sawresho
Well-Known Member
This verse was revealed to Muhammad's wives and also Muslim women ---
-And stay in your houses meaning not graduated from homes وقرن في بيوتكن
و لا تبرجن تبرج الجاهلية الاولى --- meaning
And do not display yourselves like the first of ignorance -
It's the first and the second thing -----
The reason for getting out and it is revealed to Muhammad women ----
And also because the mothers of the believers of Muslim role model for Muslim women
-And stay in your houses meaning not graduated from homes وقرن في بيوتكن
و لا تبرجن تبرج الجاهلية الاولى --- meaning
And do not display yourselves like the first of ignorance -
It's the first and the second thing -----
The reason for getting out and it is revealed to Muhammad women ----
And also because the mothers of the believers of Muslim role model for Muslim women
Scimitar
Eschatologist
meaning - don't parade your wives out like an ornament to be amused with, or with revealing clothing which other men will desire their bodies for - - - - - - - - -READ THE TAFSIR BOY.
hey look, if you're ok with your mother walking down Egypt Central in a bikini, that fine by me.... but my mother has self respect, and wants to please GOD Almighty and so she stays covered, unlike the women who would incite the lusts of mere horny men, as in the exampled case of your mother which I have given.
You know whats funny to me? That you don't know what "ignorance" means
hey look, if you're ok with your mother walking down Egypt Central in a bikini, that fine by me.... but my mother has self respect, and wants to please GOD Almighty and so she stays covered, unlike the women who would incite the lusts of mere horny men, as in the exampled case of your mother which I have given.
You know whats funny to me? That you don't know what "ignorance" means