Was Muhammad a good man?

[Moishe3rd]

Because i bring to you a fact that the Jews stole the lands and killed the Palestinians,you found my premise meretricious.

What you said was fiddling, you failed and you even proved how tricky you were.

Sigh...
Okay, my meretricious advesary, I'll bite.
When? Where? How? Did "the Jews steal land and kill Palestinians ?"

 

[Smart_Guy]

I understand.
However, this response is troubling.
The 80% of Muslims who just want "to be in good terms with all others no matter what their beliefs, ethnicity or colors are" and who want to be taken for "the person I am" without regard to that "other" ten or twenty percent who think to be Muslim or Arab is to have the right to chop off people's heads - your silent majority is going to let the vicious minority destroy this world...
Think about it.

If they, using the same key word "majority", wanted to destroy the world, they would have done it long ago. Muslims around the world are like, dunno, 1.5 billion, so a majority of 1.5 billion would be still a really big number!

In the past Wahhabis used to do awful acts. Now women walk freely in the streets, given priority in public places, people are allowed to stay indoors in public establishments like some stores and restaurants in the time of prayer without being kicked out, no home forcible entrances, no prying on private freedom, no religious police in resorts, and some other things!

With time, there is high hope that things will improve even further. I'm Hijazi, the kind that was oppressed, yet now I live here with my honer, dignity and the same rights of all other Saudis including Wahhabis. Those are what matter the most. Things are improving internally, and hopefully they will do to externally. Politics and governments here need time to evolve. This is the third world after all!

 

[Agnostic75]

Edit: Deletion of duplicate post.

 

[FearGod]

Sigh...
Okay, my meretricious advesary, I'll bite.
When? Where? How? Did "the Jews steal land and kill Palestinians ?"

[youtube]db6nVdNxgUw[/youtube]
History of Israel & stolen land of Palestine by Israeli historian Professor Ilan Pappe - YouTube

 

[Agnostic75]

.......the Jews stole the lands and killed the Palestinians.......

Who has the moral right to own any particular land? How far back in time do we need to go in order to determine who has a moral right to own any particular land?

Consider the following:

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Muslims, the Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British, The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians. Other terms for the same area include Canaan, Zion, the Land of Israel, Southern Syria, Jund Filastin, Outremer, the Holy Land and the Southern Levant.

The region was among the earliest in the world to see human habitation, agricultural communities and civilization.

The earliest human remains in Palestine were found in Ubeidiya, some 3 km south of the Sea of Galilee (Lake Tiberias), in the Jordan Rift Valley. The remains are dated to the Pleistocene, c. 1.5 million years ago. These are traces of the earliest migration of Homo erectus out of Africa.

Palestine was conquered by the Islamic Empire following the 636 CE Battle of Yarmouk during the Muslim conquest of Syria. In 661 CE, with the assassination of Ali, Muawiyah I became the uncontested Caliph of the Islamic World after being crowned in Jerusalem.

So Muslims stole Palestine by force starting in 636 A.D.

I am not necessarily supporting the Partition of Palestine in 1948, but I much prefer Israel to any Muslim country for many reasons.

 

[Agnostic75]

[youtube]db6nVdNxgUw[/youtube]
History of Israel & stolen land of Palestine by Israeli historian Professor Ilan Pappe - YouTube

Wikipedia says:

Pappé supports the one-state solution, which envisages a binational state for Palestinians and Israelis.

That would be very unlikely.

 

[Moishe3rd]

What I asked was simple.
Your video response is no response at all.
Perhaps you could quote even one line from the video that answers the question.
No?

 

[YmirGF]

Who told you they did't live in peace,i am afraid that you are entirely ignorant.

Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From the very article you have cited, FearGod...

Other authors criticize the modern notion of Al-Andalus being a tolerant society of equal opportunities for all religious groups as a "myth".[10] Jews were living in an uneasy coexistence with Muslims and Catholics, and the relationship between these groups was more often than not marked by segregation and mutual hostility. In the 1066 Granada massacre of the entire Jewish population of the city, the Jewish death toll was higher than in the much publicized Christian pogromes in the Rhineland slightly later.[10] The notable Jewish philosopher Moses Maimonides (1135–1204) was forced to flee from Al-Andalus to avoid conversion by the Almohads, which may have prompted his bitter statement that Islam had inflicted more pain on the Jewish people than any other 'nation'.[11]

The notion that Jews had it great under Muslim rule is stretching the truth. Certainly Muslims would think they had it great...

 

[FearGod]

What I asked was simple.
Your video response is no response at all.
Perhaps you could quote even one line from the video that answers the question.
No?

You still not able to recognize how silly your argument is.

You condemn Al Saud occupation of Saudi Arabia in 1920 while not condemning Israel occupation of Palestine in 1948.

 

[FearGod]

From the very article you have cited, FearGod...

The notion that Jews had it great under Muslim rule is stretching the truth. Certainly Muslims would think they had it great...

What the people of knowledge say such as Henry (Hillel) Abramson.


[youtube]1OnArXdHQdc[/youtube]
The Golden Age of Spanish Jewry (Essential Lectures in Jewish History) Dr. Henry Abramson - YouTube

 

[Moishe3rd]

You still not able to recognize how silly your argument is.

You condemn Al Saud occupation of Saudi Arabia in 1920 while not condemning Israel occupation of Palestine in 1948.

Ahhh...
Is that what's bothering you?
Why didn't you just say so?

As I pointed out to Smart Guy, I making making a sardonic comparison for people like YOU (and, obviously not like Smart Guy who appears to have a much more live and let live philosophy towards his own history).
Folk like yourself appear fond of condemning Israel and supporting the Arabs you call Palestinian while totally ignoring the brutal and much more savage conquests and mass murders of other Arabs by other Arabs and Muslims such as in Saudi Arabia; or Libya; or Algeria; or Egypt; or Syria; or Jordan; or Lebanon; or Iraq; or Pakistan; or Turkey; or any of other Arab/ Muslim countries who Became Countries by invading lands that they Never owned and slaughtering, converting, or driving out the local Arab, Muslim, or non Muslim populations.
But... that's just history. Let's focus on your imaginary dispute with Israel.
On second thought, let's not.

In reality, I do not "condemn" al Saud in their invasion and conquest of the Arabian peninsula.
The Saudi family has been fairly brilliant (albeit brutal - far, far more brutal than Israelis could ever dream of) in their conquest and consolidation of Saudi Arabia. They played off the Great European and American powers against each other and against other Arabs and established themselves as a vital State for Oil. They have continually played off Arab against Arab and Muslim against Muslim to ensure their continued dominance. They ally with the United States when threatened by such other powers as the former Soviet Union; the former Saddam Maddass Hussein; and the present heretic cult of Vilayat al Fiqh in Iran, and they threatened the United States with their own "Oil" power when they could still do so in order to placate their "Arab brothers" and, not incidentally, to make an S load of money with which they have placated the Entire non Saud population of Saudi Arabia by making it into one of the world's only currently self sustaining welfare States.
The House of Saud has been transcendent in its ability to do whatever it damn well pleases for nearly 100 years.

Unfortunately, in order to maintain their own stability and order, they have exported (exiled) their own musfidun terrorists to the outside world and then supported their philosophies with their multi-billion dollar grants and institutions that enable deranged imams to teach Hirābah to poor, benighted, unsuspecting Muslims.
This is a crime.
It can be likened to the American CIA committing crimes of drug smuggling or murder in order to ensure that the world is "Safe for Democracy."
Saudi Arabia promotes death and destruction throughout the world by supporting takfir religious practices to ensure that the House of Saud continues to thrive and maintain its absolutist hold on Saudi Arabia.
سيئة للغاية

 

[FearGod]

Ahhh...
Is that what's bothering you?
Why didn't you just say so?

I said from the beginning that you were ignorant.

As I pointed out to Smart Guy, I making making a sardonic comparison for people like YOU (and, obviously not like Smart Guy who appears to have a much more live and let live philosophy towards his own history).
Folk like yourself appear fond of condemning Israel and supporting the Arabs you call Palestinian while totally ignoring the brutal and much more savage conquests and mass murders of other Arabs by other Arabs and Muslims such as in Saudi Arabia; or Libya; or Algeria; or Egypt; or Syria; or Jordan; or Lebanon; or Iraq; or Pakistan; or Turkey; or any of other Arab/ Muslim countries who Became Countries by invading lands that they Never owned and slaughtering, converting, or driving out the local Arab, Muslim, or non Muslim populations.
But... that's just history. Let's focus on your imaginary dispute with Israel.
On second thought, let's not.

Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together all the times till our recent days.

Millions have been killed among Christians during world war 1 & 2 which isn't the case between Muslims in that era, not to mention how badly Jews treated in Europe and expelled to Palestine.

In reality, I do not "condemn" al Saud in their invasion and conquest of the Arabian peninsula.
The Saudi family has been fairly brilliant (albeit brutal - far, far more brutal than Israelis could ever dream of) in their conquest and consolidation of Saudi Arabia. They played off the Great European and American powers against each other and against other Arabs and established themselves as a vital State for Oil. They have continually played off Arab against Arab and Muslim against Muslim to ensure their continued dominance. They ally with the United States when threatened by such other powers as the former Soviet Union; the former Saddam Maddass Hussein; and the present heretic cult of Vilayat al Fiqh in Iran, and they threatened the United States with their own "Oil" power when they could still do so in order to placate their "Arab brothers" and, not incidentally, to make an S load of money with which they have placated the Entire non Saud population of Saudi Arabia by making it into one of the world's only currently self sustaining welfare States.
The House of Saud has been transcendent in its ability to do whatever it damn well pleases for nearly 100 years.

They were brilliants and were able to play it right, so what the problem with that ?

Unfortunately, in order to maintain their own stability and order, they have exported (exiled) their own musfidun terrorists to the outside world and then supported their philosophies with their multi-billion dollar grants and institutions that enable deranged imams to teach Hirābah to poor, benighted, unsuspecting Muslims.
This is a crime.
It can be likened to the American CIA committing crimes of drug smuggling or murder in order to ensure that the world is "Safe for Democracy."
Saudi Arabia promotes death and destruction throughout the world by supporting takfir religious practices to ensure that the House of Saud continues to thrive and maintain its absolutist hold on Saudi Arabia.
سيئة للغاية

So why the world support Al Saud and Israel, both took the lands by force.

Who is good ?

 

[1robin]

Before you ask me to defend, provide me with a proof for what you are saying. When I say proof, this doesn't mean I am asking for explanation of how things went.

That is not how historical events are evaluated. There were no I-phones in Muhammad's day. I gave you well known and accepted (some contemporary accounts) of ISMAC historians, Muhammad's companions and modern scholars. That is how history is decided upon, not undeniable proof. I also noticed that even though you suggest there is no proving those events happened you were no less willing to reply with the fact they did not. That is inconsistent. BTW if you review my posts in this thread about these battles you will find vast numbers of sources and documentation.

 

[1robin]

So why the world support Al Saud and Israel, both took the lands by force.

Who is good ?

Israel took the land by UN mandate. What is with these pictures? What is the message your trying to convey.

 

[Sabour]

That is not how historical events are evaluated. There were no I-phones in Muhammad's day. I gave you well known and accepted (some contemporary accounts) of ISMAC historians, Muhammad's companions and modern scholars. That is how history is decided upon, not undeniable proof. I also noticed that even though you suggest there is no proving those events happened you were no less willing to reply with the fact they did not. That is inconsistent. BTW if you review my posts in this thread about these battles you will find vast numbers of sources and documentation.

Okay seems fair.

I didn't say these events didn't happen.

I said when you discuss such matters you should provide your source of information. Unless you are not interested in answers and you just want to attack. I am sorry if I offended you with my tone.

Anyways did you look at what was the context of these events? If we just want to judge about what happened without looking of what lead to that than we are not in a fair position to judge.

For example, Jesus peace be upon him is one of the prophets in Islam and anyone who doesn't believe in him as a prophet is not a muslim. But when I open the bible I would find these.

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Deuteronomy 13 6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.


Now I don't go on and say Christianity says kill people. No religion ever says that, I understand the context in which this is said.

 

[Scimitar]

gosh, this topic is in going into the realms of Wake Up Project territory... when the forum finally gets its much needed update, I'll link the thread in question here for your perusal.

Gonna sit back and see how this one unfolds.

Scimitar

 

[Agnostic75]

.......the Jews stole the lands and killed the Palestinians.......

So why the world support Al Saud and Israel, both took the lands by force.

Who is good ?

Who has the moral right to own any particular land? How far back in time do we need to go in order to determine who has a moral right to own any particular land?

Consider the following:

History of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Palestine has been controlled by numerous different peoples, including the Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, the Muslims, the Crusaders, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British, The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank") and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians. Other terms for the same area include Canaan, Zion, the Land of Israel, Southern Syria, Jund Filastin, Outremer, the Holy Land and the Southern Levant.

The region was among the earliest in the world to see human habitation, agricultural communities and civilization.

The earliest human remains in Palestine were found in Ubeidiya, some 3 km south of the Sea of Galilee (Lake Tiberias), in the Jordan Rift Valley. The remains are dated to the Pleistocene, c. 1.5 million years ago. These are traces of the earliest migration of Homo erectus out of Africa.

Palestine was conquered by the Islamic Empire following the 636 CE Battle of Yarmouk during the Muslim conquest of Syria. In 661 CE, with the assassination of Ali, Muawiyah I became the uncontested Caliph of the Islamic World after being crowned in Jerusalem.

So Muslims stole Palestine by force starting in 636 A.D. The article shows that many groups conquered Palestine, that some Muslim groups conquered other Muslim groups, and that Christian crusaders have controlled Palestine.

Historically, humans have usually taken land by force, including Muslims.

 

[kashmir]

Notice how those against the quran, bring up valid discussions and those for the quran do nothing but post personal attacks as their rebuttals?

Notice if you follow Jesus's teachings, there is nothing but peace, even for ones enemies?
He said to his disciples that if people did not want to hear the word of God, to move on to those who do want to hear it.

Notice if you follow muhammads teachings, its full of war, slavery, destroying those against him....
muhammah said to kill all those who do not want to convert to him.

How can people be so blind to not see that?
You cant have peace by murdering.
You have peace by loving.

 

[Sabour]

Notice how those against the quran, bring up valid discussions and those for the quran do nothing but post personal attacks as their rebuttals?

If it were like this, than you are "those for the quran" :areyoucra:areyoucra

I think you should bring up valid discussions if you were to be against the quran, I mean that is your scale... wake up :slap:

 

[farouk]

Notice how those against the quran, bring up valid discussions and those for the quran do nothing but post personal attacks as their rebuttals?

Notice if you follow Jesus's teachings, there is nothing but peace, even for ones enemies?
He said to his disciples that if people did not want to hear the word of God, to move on to those who do want to hear it.

Notice if you follow muhammads teachings, its full of war, slavery, destroying those against him....
muhammah said to kill all those who do not want to convert to him.

How can people be so blind to not see that?
You cant have peace by murdering.
You have peace by loving.

Peace to all.
Why attack a religion for which you lack knowledge off?
Now read the ff verses.
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’;and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household".
Now what peace you talking about?
Do you know whose words are these?
Please go and study your own bible.
There is plenty that i can give you but what is the point if you suffering from Islamophobia.Now go and clense your heart of this flith before it destroys your soul.
Peace
Farouk