Was Muhammad a good man?

[1robin]

Your sins are already paid for,trust and love Jesus,that is your religion.

They are paid for eternally not while I am alive and the standards in the Bible are much higher than the Quran. I did wrong things before I was saved and wrong things after. After was far worse. I have had so much guilt since being a Christian that sometimes death might be preferable. However promises made by God can't be undone by me and without them no one will ever see heaven. WE are given assurance of a future salvation unlike Islam. That is why so many of us can passively give up our lives and your don't. You have no assurance and will never know if you will ever get to heaven so you can't lay your life down for God as we can. Of course your side is willing to die if they can kill a bunch of innocent people in the process but all societies have done that. Only Christianity has a long record of being willing to surrender their lives without trying to kill others for God. IN fact the only way you can know your going to heaven is if you die trying to kill infidels. Don't tell me which is the more moral system. It is the Christian west that builds so many hospitals and school systems, it is us who are first on the scene in a crisis (not Islam), it is Christians that are the most generous demographic on Earth (not Muslims). Islam has no moral leg to stand on.

What your proof that adultery was forbidden just because it damage the family's unity and not because it is a dirty and disgusting act by itself.

Yes, it causes God's people harm and that is why it is wrong. What I feel about it has nothing to do with it. Sin is based on a distortion of purpose. Marriage has a purpose, sex has a purpose, children have a purpose, drugs, alcohol, etc.. all have valid purposes. The sin lies in using them in the wrong way not in what they make me feel like. Doing heroin is wrong and makes anyone who does feel the best they ever have. Feeling have nothing to do with it. My morality has a foundation and reason why it is wrong, feelings are arbitrary.

The quran is a great book which is hard for you to understand and it is hard for you to follow,many men like to have many girl friends to satisfy their Johnson and sleep with prostitutes and many men like to drunk and walk like moron and to do whatever they want of sins but they believe that all their sins are forgiven due to Jesus sacrifice.

The Quran is not a great book in any category. Some who does not even understand the trinity has no room to talk about what I understand. On every literary level the Quran is a complete mess. It was constructed to be memorized not understood. I have many of those that have memorized it be asked questions about comprehension, they failed them all. They have no idea why their saying it (they were told to as children without any choice) they just know they have to.

i don't means you but the fact which i can see it nowadays all over the dirty world which you can't deny,just look around but i am in doubt that you can change anything because only great men can change a dirty community as the prophet did by changing the barbarians in the Arabia to the great Islamic Empire that reached Spain and the far east.

I can give you far more primitive and backwards civilizations that were transformed far further and far faster and were far larger if you wish by just Christians or from any number of cultures. There is nothing exceptional about what he did. In fact chose Britain, Greece, Rome, China, Mongolia, the US, Japan, Christianity its self, or even Russia and I will find one or more people who did more than Muhammad did in the category of transforming a culture. Pick one and lets get it on.

I have noticed that every single time I want to concentrate on one thing and actually see if you claims are true you ignore it and never do so. Why is that I wonder?

Cheating wives narrowing the infidelity gap: report* - NY Daily News

I have already admitted and never denied that the US has lost it's moral compass since secularism took over the nation in the 60's. I spend much time in other threads pointing that out in every detail. Islam never had one. The US in the Christian high-water mark of the 40's and 50's was greater than Islam was at any point in its history even if you combined all the Muslim nations together, and was many times over. We saved the world from fascism and communism twice. Not Islam. We have even saved many Islamic nations themselves. Islam has never even helped ours nor almost no other non-Islamic nation. When hurricanes or famines hit the US is always there (even today) Islam never has been. They fought for Hitler not against him. You do not want to compare us. You will loose.

 

[FearGod]

What? Since I know the one reason YOU ARE NOT asking this is because you wish to learn from them I am not posting a hundred names or more. I do not even understand what your asking. Why in the world are you saying they must live hundreds of years ago, if that is what you meant? Historical evidence gets better over time if all else
is even. In what subject? There are names in hundreds of subjects. I can't list them all.

Why i need to learn from them,i just wanted to prove that you were wrong, and i did

Historical claims (including every one any one in Islam ever made) are never known for a fact or proven. Historical claims are made on probability. What proposition best explains the evidence. Almost nothing that occurred before you lived can ever be known for certain to you. I use the best evidence and the best scholars to see what is the best explanation. Try it sometime.

No proof or evidences to confirm the truthfulness of any historical events that happened hundreds of years ago.

e.g What evidence you got for the historical event of Jesus walking on water.

This one has an easy answer. Every thing that Jesus claimed was sealed as truth by the fact that God raised him from the dead. It was his stamp of approval on the message he gave. That was one of its primary purposes. The best explanation of the evidence is that he did in fact die and was raised.

What evidence you got that Jesus was raised from the dead ?
Those are stories and you believe the one which satisfies your mood.
Are you sure the witnesses were telling the truth,are you sure that what was written is what really happened ?

What does any of that have to do with anything I said.

1.The Quran and the Bible both claim adultery is wrong.
2. The Bible (not the Quran) raised it to a higher level and said to even look at a women with lust is adultery.

Yes, looking to a woman with lust isn't punishable by Islamic law but adultery is.
Punishment as ordered by God is 100 lashes for adultery provided that four witnesses confirm the incident and not as in Judaism stoning to death.

If you think for one minute I would ever believe that lust or adultery is not common in Islam your nuts. They found porn in Asama's fortress. There are trials for it every day in Islam. If you wish to force women to cover themselves from head to foot because Islamic men are insecure that is your business but adultery and lust still occurs constantly. I was not talking about what Christians and Muslims do anyway. I was talking about what level of moral commands exist in the Quran and the Bible. IN fact that is what you were talking about and what I answered to. Quit changing the subject. Islam is anything but the paradigm of morality. Most pols show outsiders do not think Islam moral at all.

Prostitution is legal in most if not all christian countries whereas it is illegal in all muslim countries.

Just watch your TV and see how girls are offering themselves for money.
e.g Call me now,i am waiting for you,i'll drive you crazy,i am so sexy.....etc

I already have. It is in this thread. I forget the Arabic name for it but just review a little. Even your own scholars agree that it was practiced by even Muhammad's companions, though it is not that widespread these days.

So you don't care about the evidence,but you only believe it because some scholars allowed it.

Buddy, are you sure that you care about the truth ! :sarcastic

The only thing Christ canceled was Hell. I can easily die if I drive drunk, a man can easily shoot me if I mess with his wife, God can even squash me like a bug. Christ cancelled eternal judgment not temporal judgments and in fact the Bible says this. God RUTHLESSLY scourges those whom he loves. He is harder on Christians than anyone.

Matthew 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

It was to explain the silliness your views not mine. Of course I deny what is not true.

Your views is absurd and not mine and i don't think that you care about the truth.

There are no prophets it is possible to meet who are dead. No prophet who ever lived even if they could be met could ever do what Christ did in my life.

That was the evil,when he comes to you next time just through a blessed water or the Cross on his face and he'll run away :run:

No prophet who ever lived was resurrected, can communicate spiritually if dead, can forgive sin in his own power, not one prophet who ever lived claimed to be able to save me or empower me to be born again. That occurred, no mere prophet has ever claimed to be able to do this. Jesus is no mere prophet. IN fact calling Jesus only a prophet is the worst possible conclusion to reach.

He is a prophet similar to Moses,Abraham ..etc and for me he wasn't better than any other prophet.

That was not the question asked. You are doing this yet again. You are taking an answer given in one context, stripping of the context it came in, slapping on a whole new context and crying that it does not work. Well duh.

You weren't able to answer,so don't blame me for that .

Who are you to tell God what he could or could not do? I can imagine the arrogance that requires. Christ was the most influential man in history, the only sinless man ever known, worked a hundred times as many miracles as you say Muhammad did, performed the greatest act of love in human history, is the only being who God placed at his right hand, everything that was created was created through him (not Muhammad), everything that has been created was placed under his authority, etc.... he is no door. It is disgustingly dishonest to equate the greatest being to ever walk the earth with a door. This kind of crap in my opinion will exact a heavy price when the judgment comes. If you are going to forfeit your only chance to be saved I would think you would have better reasons that this. I just can't believe this is the kind of crap you are wagering everything you have on.

You are saying that your Jesus is the only being who god placed at his right hand.

i would like to ask how many hands God has and if Jesus was his right hand who was his left hand.:sarcastic

Do you think God needs any assistant from a human being such as your Jesus to be his right hand.

You are saying God can be anything if he wanted to be so,he can be a man if he wished ,a door if he wished ,a cat if he wished,an ant if he wished or to turn to a water,he is omnipotent,right.:sarcastic

Do you think that we are such a great thing that God will incarnated as Jesus that he ran from the jews whom hanged him on the cross and he shouted with fear and cried.

Matthew 27:46
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?&#8221.

Mark 15:34

And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lemal sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?&#8221.

 

[FearGod]

They are paid for eternally not while I am alive and the standards in the Bible are much higher than the Quran. I did wrong things before I was saved and wrong things after. After was far worse. I have had so much guilt since being a Christian that sometimes death might be preferable. However promises made by God can't be undone by me and without them no one will ever see heaven. WE are given assurance of a future salvation unlike Islam. That is why so many of us can passively give up our lives and your don't. You have no assurance and will never know if you will ever get to heaven so you can't lay your life down for God as we can. Of course your side is willing to die if they can kill a bunch of innocent people in the process but all societies have done that. Only Christianity has a long record of being willing to surrender their lives without trying to kill others for God. IN fact the only way you can know your going to heaven is if you die trying to kill infidels. Don't tell me which is the more moral system. It is the Christian west that builds so many hospitals and school systems, it is us who are first on the scene in a crisis (not Islam), it is Christians that are the most generous demographic on Earth (not Muslims). Islam has no moral leg to stand on.

Yes,that reminds me with world war first & second and the many innocents civilians who died in Hiroshima,Vietnam ......endless help to the world.:yes:

Yes, it causes God's people harm and that is why it is wrong. What I feel about it has nothing to do with it. Sin is based on a distortion of purpose. Marriage has a purpose, sex has a purpose, children have a purpose, drugs, alcohol, etc.. all have valid purposes. The sin lies in using them in the wrong way not in what they make me feel like. Doing heroin is wrong and makes anyone who does feel the best they ever have. Feeling have nothing to do with it. My morality has a foundation and reason why it is wrong, feelings are arbitrary.

How did you know that ?
you did a great lecture.
Did you finish high school,1robin

The Quran is not a great book in any category. Some who does not even understand the trinity has no room to talk about what I understand. On every literary level the Quran is a complete mess. It was constructed to be memorized not understood. I have many of those that have memorized it be asked questions about comprehension, they failed them all. They have no idea why their saying it (they were told to as children without any choice) they just know they have to.

The trinity is very easy to understand

i don't have any problem in understanding the quran.

I can give you far more primitive and backwards civilizations that were transformed far further and far faster and were far larger if you wish by just Christians or from any number of cultures. There is nothing exceptional about what he did. In fact chose Britain, Greece, Rome, China, Mongolia, the US, Japan, Christianity its self, or even Russia and I will find one or more people who did more than Muhammad did in the category of transforming a culture. Pick one and lets get it on.

OK,choose anyone yourself and show me where he did better than prophet Mohammed for transforming a barbarian culture to a civilized one.

I have noticed that every single time I want to concentrate on one thing and actually see if you claims are true you ignore it and never do so. Why is that I wonder?

i didn't ignore anything,actually your argument to me is kind of leisure.

I have already admitted and never denied that the US has lost it's moral compass since secularism took over the nation in the 60's. I spend much time in other threads pointing that out in every detail. Islam never had one. The US in the Christian high-water mark of the 40's and 50's was greater than Islam was at any point in its history even if you combined all the Muslim nations together, and was many times over. We saved the world from fascism and communism twice. Not Islam. We have even saved many Islamic nations themselves. Islam has never even helped ours nor almost no other non-Islamic nation. When hurricanes or famines hit the US is always there (even today) Islam never has been. They fought for Hitler not against him. You do not want to compare us. You will loose.

Yes,the American morality was best than all Muslim Nations specially in the year 1945,Hiroshima and the year 1960,Vietnam

 

[YmirGF]

Yes,that reminds me with world war first & second and the many innocents civilians who died in Hiroshima,Vietnam ......endless help to the world.:yes:

(drivel snipped)

Yes,the American morality was best than all Muslim Nations specially in the year 1945,Hiroshima and the year 1960,Vietnam

It's almost as if you are supportive of the peace-loving folks that the Americans (and others) were fighting against.

That is understandable though, the stain of blood on the history of Islam is so great that I can see how those who opposed America (and others) might seem to be without any blame whatsoever. Hitler, Hồ Chí Minh and the Japanese Military, during WW2, were real stand up guys after all.

 

[FearGod]

It's almost as if you are supportive of the peace-loving folks that the Americans (and others) were fighting against.

That is understandable though, the stain of blood on the history of Islam is so great that I can see how those who opposed America (and others) might seem to be without any blame whatsoever. Hitler, Hồ Chí Minh and the Japanese Military, during WW2, were real stand up guys after all.

So "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

 

[YmirGF]

So"People who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

Oh, do try to be serious, Feargod.

Are you really implying that the rampaging, psychopathic, Muslim armies were doing a service to the world by slaughtering millions upon millions upon millions of people?
Or are you equating the excesses of the Muslim crusaders with that of America (and others) efforts to stop a few tyrannical dictators from having a free reign over their people?

 

[FearGod]

Oh, do try to be serious, Feargod.

Are you really implying that the rampaging, psychopathic, Muslim armies were doing a service to the world by slaughtering millions upon millions upon millions of people?
Or are you equating the excesses of the Muslim crusaders with that of America (and others) efforts to stop a few tyrannical dictators from having a free reign over their people?

You can talk as you wish but show me evidences that muslims killed millions during the Islamic empire and that they did harm to the world and not the contrary,i am afraid that you are similar to 1robin denying the role of muslims in Spain and to Europe which was in the dark ages and ignorance,i am talking about facts and not as you did just bla..bla...bla.

i don't like your childish arguments.

You are saying now that the americans were heroes in killing civilians including children in Hiroshima and other places all over the world

Now when it comes to the Syrian dictator "Bashar" no one dares to stop him,why
Because Russia says "we don't allow you to strike Bashar" and to save Obama's dignity they invented the story of eliminating the syrian chemical weapons,so,in other words kill your people by legal weapons.:sarcastic

When it comes to Nkorea which threatens US and Skorea,so it is a war against the weak,otherwise they should stop Nkorea from threatening Skorea and US.

One main difference between the Islamic empire in the middle ages is that they were the only super power in the world but in the recent centuries there is russia and china among others.

 

[YmirGF]

You can talk as you wish but show me evidences that muslims killed millions during the Islamic empire and that they did harm to the world and not the contrary,i am afraid that you are similar to 1robin denying the role of muslims in Spain and to Europe which was in the dark ages and ignorance,i am talking about facts and not as you did just bla..bla...bla.
(drivel snipped for brevity)

The Islamic conquest of the Indian subcontinent alone claimed approximately 60,000,000 lives. I'm sure Indian's are grateful for the intervention.

Just to get wet your appetite. Though Wikipedia is not a great source, this article is fairly well sourced in and of itself.
Muslim conquest in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[FearGod]

The Islamic conquest of the Indian subcontinent alone claimed approximately 60,000,000 lives. I'm sure Indian's are grateful for the intervention.

Just to get wet your appetite. Though Wikipedia is not a great source, this article is fairly well sourced in and of itself.
Muslim conquest in the Indian subcontinent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That number wasn't precise as in the Arabic records they counted approximately 115,244,001 indian lives but i didn't find the source.

 

[1robin]

Why i need to learn from them,i just wanted to prove that you were wrong, and i did

You did not. You did not post anything about anything they claimed that proved them wrong. I am going to reduce the posts by deleting what is irrelevant and silly.

No proof or evidences to confirm the truthfulness of any historical events that happened hundreds of years ago.

e.g What evidence you got for the historical event of Jesus walking on water.

I have far more evidence for this than for anything in the Quran.

What evidence you got that Jesus was raised from the dead ?
Those are stories and you believe the one which satisfies your mood.
Are you sure the witnesses were telling the truth,are you sure that what was written is what really happened ?

Testimony of people who were there.
My own and billions of people who have met Christ by believing this.

Prostitution is legal in most if not all christian countries whereas it is illegal in all muslim countries.

That is completely false.

Just watch your TV and see how girls are offering themselves for money.
e.g Call me now,i am waiting for you,i'll drive you crazy,i am so sexy.....etc

Only you would think TV has anything to do with life.

So you don't care about the evidence,but you only believe it because some scholars allowed it.

Buddy, are you sure that you care about the truth ! :sarcastic

They were Islamic scholars.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+18:8&version=NIV

Matthew 18:8http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+18:8&version=NIV If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+18:8&version=NIV Next time you trip you cut off your foot and then I will believe you may interpret this scripture.

He is a prophet similar to Moses,Abraham ..etc and for me he wasn't better than any other prophet.

They were not resurrected. They were not co-occupants of God's thrown. They were not here before the world. They did not have everything made through them. Everything was not placed beneath them. What does equal mean in Islam anyway?

You are saying that your Jesus is the only being who god placed at his right hand.

i would like to ask how many hands God has and if Jesus was his right hand who was his left hand.:sarcastic

What do literal hands have to do with those verses? Have you ever read the bible?

Do you think God needs any assistant from a human being such as your Jesus to be his right hand.

I do not think the people God uses are because he needs them. He chooses to use and honor them and you have no objection possible.

You are saying God can be anything if he wanted to be so,he can be a man if he wished ,a door if he wished ,a cat if he wished,an ant if he wished or to turn to a water,he is omnipotent,right.:sarcastic

Yes he can.

Do you think that we are such a great thing that God will incarnated as Jesus that he ran from the jews whom hanged him on the cross and he shouted with fear and cried.

Jesus voluntarily gave up some of his power so that he may be an example to us. He did not do what you suggest but he did have temporary limitations he voluntarily chose.

Mark 27:46

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Mark 15:34

And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lemal sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

What you do not know about the Book you are supposed to judge the Quran by, is remarkable. This is part of a prayer that David had uttered long before and does not mean what you think it does. It is of no use to straighten it out for you as you place value in what you misunderstand and prefer it to mean what you want it to.

 

[1robin]

Yes,that reminds me with world war first & second and the many innocents civilians who died in Hiroshima,Vietnam ......endless help to the world.:yes:

Do you mean the innocents that attacked pearl harbor or the innocents that attacked south Vietnam? You get enough of the Bible wrong. Don not compound the error by getting military history wrong as well. Japan believed their empower was a God. They raped and murdered their way across the pacific and China in wars they started. The north Vietnamese invaded their peaceful southern neighbor and murder women and Children, because Russia told China to tell them to. They both committed atrocities without end and the civilian populations of both did as well. Pick up a book every once in a while.

Japan was so psychotically loyal to it's destructive beliefs (sound familiar, Islam fought on the same side as them and Hitler in WW2) that the only way to ever stop them was to invade Japan. The estimates in casualties (without atomic weapons) would have been 500,000 on our side and 3 million on theirs. Dropping the bombs cost less than 200,000. So we saved 3 million 500 thousand lives in ending a war we did not start and you do not know enough about history to understand. Sure am glad you were not running anything back then.

How did you know that ?
you did a great lecture.
Did you finish high school,1robin

Come off it man. You are just getting petty and silly. I have more hours in secondary education than you do. I am qualified to teach high school secondary mathematics (are you). Not that anything I said requires greater than a 5th grade education.

The trinity is very easy to understand

Then why did you and Muhammad both get it wrong so often.

i don't have any problem in understanding the quran.

Yes you do.

OK,choose anyone yourself and show me where he did better than prophet Mohammed for transforming a barbarian culture to a civilized one.

Since you apparently can't I guess I will have to. Alexander the great and over twice or three times the area. Cortez transformed an entire continent and over 30 million savages, Darius transformed 4/5ths of the civilized world, Rome 90% of the same. I can go on quite a while but it is meaningless because you do not care about history as it actually occurred but only some distorted for convenience version of it.

i didn't ignore anything,actually your argument to me is kind of leisure.

If leisure means something you ignore and never even attempt to contend with in Arabia then I agree.

Yes,the American morality was best than all Muslim Nations specially in the year 1945,Hiroshima and the year 1960,Vietnam

I have always found that those who know the least about what they claim repeat their claims more often. See above. We saved the world from fascism (Islam fought on it's side). I have no idea why you selected two random dates but yes in those years we were more moral, more powerful, richer, had much better science, were more civilized, and were much higher educated that Islam plus countless more advantages. Next

 

[1robin]

That number wasn't precise as in the Arabic records they counted approximately 115,244,001 indian lives but i didn't find the source.

What is this? I could not find that number anywhere at that site. Even 25% of that number is way too many.

Islam and Hindus got along without much fighting while the Christian west controlled that country. The minute the British left the Muslims and the Hindus started killing each other (surprise). It got so bad even Gandhi said he regretted gaining their independence (some cultures can't handle freedom). I believe that YmirGF's numbers are too high unless they incorporate everything that occurred after the British left and you numbers just do not make any sense. However let me say it was only ten million instead. Is that OK? Is that defendable? Islam had no claim to any land in India yet they killed millions and took a huge portion of what they did not own. Contrast that with the fact we gave Germany, Japan, Vietnam, Korea, etc back even though they started the wars. We even helped to rebuild them, and it is clear which nation is the more powerful and benevolent. We have even saved Islamic nations and groups from being annihilated. When have they ever done anything but betray us? However Gandhi's day was not the first by far where Muslims had slaughtered Indians without excuse of any kind.

The Mohammedan Conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precarious thing, whose delicate complex of order and liberty, culture and peace may at any time be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within. The Hindus had allowed their strength to be wasted in internal division and war; they had adopted religions like Buddhism and Jainism, which unnerved them for the tasks of life; they had failed to organize their forces for the protection of their frontiers and their capitals, their wealth and their freedom, from the hordes of Scythians, Huns, Afghans and Turks hovering about India's boundaries and waiting for national weakness to let them in. For four hundred years (600–1000 A.D.) India invited conquest; and at last it came.

In a subsequent communication, Hajjaj reiterated that all able-bodied men were to be killed, and that their underage sons and daughters were to be imprisoned and retained as hostages. Qasim obeyed, and on his arrival at the town of Brahminabad massacred between 6,000 and 16,000 of the defending forces.[8] The historian, Upendra Thakur records the persecution of Hindus and Buddhists:

“When Muhammad Kasim invaded Sind in 711 AD, Buddhism had no resistance to offer to their fire and steel. The rosary could not be a match for the sword and the terms Love and Peace had no meaning to them. They carried fire and sword wherever they went and obliterated all that came their way. Muhammad triumphantly marched into the country, conquering Debal, Sehwan, Nerun, Brahmanadabad, Alor and Multan one after the other in quick succession, and in less than a year and a half, the far-flung Hindu kingdom was crushed, the great civilization fell back and Sind entered the darkest period of its history. There was a fearful outbreak of religious bigotry in several places and temples were wantonly desecrated. At Debal, the Nairun and Aror temples were demolished and converted into mosques.[Resistors] were put to death and women made captives. The Jizya was exacted with special care.[Hindus] were required to feed Muslim travellers for three days and three nights.[9]
Persecution of Hindus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even the fact that anyone tries to defend this despicable stuff is abhorrent.

 

[FearGod]

You did not. You did not post anything about anything they claimed that proved them wrong. I am going to reduce the posts by deleting what is irrelevant and silly.

You got no answers actually

I have far more evidence for this than for anything in the Quran.

What evidences you got.

Testimony of people who were there.
My own and billions of people who have met Christ by believing this.

What you met was the satan showing himself as your lord

That is completely false.

No it isn't

Only you would think TV has anything to do with life.

More truth on TV than your historical myths

They were Islamic scholars.

So What

Next time you trip you cut off your foot and then I will believe you may interpret this scripture.

The verse is self explanatory.

They were not resurrected. They were not co-occupants of God's thrown. They were not here before the world. They did not have everything made through them. Everything was not placed beneath them. What does equal mean in Islam anyway?

How did you know ?

What do literal hands have to do with those verses? Have you ever read the bible?

Yes i read the bible and found it to be full of nonsense

I do not think the people God uses are because he needs them. He chooses to use and honor them and you have no objection possible.

Yes God doesn't need anyone

Yes he can.

So your Jesus can be a dog if he wished ?

Jesus voluntarily gave up some of his power so that he may be an example to us. He did not do what you suggest but he did have temporary limitations he voluntarily chose.

Example for what !!!

What you do not know about the Book you are supposed to judge the Quran by, is remarkable. This is part of a prayer that David had uttered long before and does not mean what you think it does. It is of no use to straighten it out for you as you place value in what you misunderstand and prefer it to mean what you want it to.

The verse is very clear which shows Jesus asking the help from his father because he didn't want to die on the cross.

What in the bible is nonsense.

 

[1robin]

You got no answers actually

That's fine. Invent victories that do not exist. If you find merit in wishful thinking then have at it.

What evidences you got.

I have eyewitnesses (more than one) who all met every test of reliability that exists in modern law and the historical method and those same people spent their whole lives being persecuted (not persecuting others) for what they claimed and some died for it. The Quran can't claim the same for any claim it makes of any kind.

What you met was the satan showing himself as your lord

Oh come on man. Claiming to know what you have no access to is pathetic and dishonest. You have no way to know that even if it was true and it is impossible that it is true.

No it isn't

Is this 5th grade?

More truth on TV than your historical myths

Keep thinking that and you will se how that works out in the end. I notice you deny scholars yet believe TV. Typical.

So What

They were Islamic scholars who are accepted by Islam. Of course they were not on the almighty omnipotent TV so you may not accept them.

The verse is self explanatory.

That verse is 100% allegory and symbology and yes it is self evident which makes your misuse of it even worse.

How did you know ?

There is no record of it anywhere. In Christian circles stuff that has no evidence is not doctrine, not even if it is convenient. It maybe and probably is different in Islam.

Yes i read the bible and found it to be full of nonsense

Then you and Muhammad do not agree and what you said does not agree with the evidence, professional who use archeology and have access to more historical texts than you ever heard of, and histories greatest experts in evidence and testimony. Your keeping low company.

Yes God doesn't need anyone

Is that a question or just a repeat of what I already answered?

So your Jesus can be a dog if he wished ?

Yes he could, but since he did not do so why is that worth asking about?

Example for what !!!

What? An example for the way men ought to behave. He is the only sinless person to ever exist. Hi behavior is the goal of all men (or should be if men were smart enough to know right from wrong).

The verse is very clear which shows Jesus asking the help from his father because he didn't want to die on the cross.

That is not even a little bit true. You obviously do not care or know anything about the Bible (or have any desire to) and this is a thread about Muhammad not the bible and what is worse you do not want to know. You make objections based on preference or the limitations Allah has and this is never going to go anywhere. Every claim of yours I spend hours to completely over turn is dropped and a new one that is just as wrong as the former one is adopted. This is pointless.

What in the bible is nonsense.

Your the one that claimed there was. You answer this? Believe whatever you want to (you will anyway). You do not care what the truth of matters are. There is no point in bringing up evidence, commentary, scholarship, testimony, or interpretation with someone who has no interest in truth.

 

[FearGod]

Do you mean the innocents that attacked pearl harbor or the innocents that attacked south Vietnam? You get enough of the Bible wrong. Don not compound the error by getting military history wrong as well. Japan believed their empower was a God. They raped and murdered their way across the pacific and China in wars they started. The north Vietnamese invaded their peaceful southern neighbor and murder women and Children, because Russia told China to tell them to. They both committed atrocities without end and the civilian populations of both did as well. Pick up a book every once in a while.

The Japanese attacked a military site in pearl harbor and not a civilian site as the American did in killing thousands of civilians in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

You will never accept any facts because of your confirmation bias.

You condemned the wars of the prophet against the aggressors whereas you blesses the wars of the Americans.

Japan was so psychotically loyal to it's destructive beliefs (sound familiar, Islam fought on the same side as them and Hitler in WW2) that the only way to ever stop them was to invade Japan. The estimates in casualties (without atomic weapons) would have been 500,000 on our side and 3 million on theirs. Dropping the bombs cost less than 200,000. So we saved 3 million 500 thousand lives in ending a war we did not start and you do not know enough about history to understand. Sure am glad you were not running anything back then.

So all wars need atomic bomb in order to save livings,how silly is your excuses for killing the innocents.

Come off it man. You are just getting petty and silly. I have more hours in secondary education than you do. I am qualified to teach high school secondary mathematics (are you). Not that anything I said requires greater than a 5th grade education.

This is a very easy equation for you to solve

Assume x = Number of livestocks
Number of sheep = x - 4
Number of goats = x - 6
Number of cows = x - 8

What is the actual number of the livestocks

Then why did you and Muhammad both get it wrong so often.

Speaking about myself,the trinity for me is a very stupid concept

Yes you do.

No i don't

Since you apparently can't I guess I will have to. Alexander the great and over twice or three times the area. Cortez transformed an entire continent and over 30 million savages, Darius transformed 4/5ths of the civilized world, Rome 90% of the same. I can go on quite a while but it is meaningless because you do not care about history as it actually occurred but only some distorted for convenience version of it.

What a silly examples.

What kind of civilization they did achieve
Alexander empire was collapsed few years after his death.Cortez was fetching for treasure and gold and Darius was just a great king

If leisure means something you ignore and never even attempt to contend with in Arabia then I agree.

No but i have a leisure in discussing stupid thoughts that you believe in such as thinking of God can be a man if he wished or even a dog if he wished so.

I have always found that those who know the least about what they claim repeat their claims more often. See above. We saved the world from fascism (Islam fought on it's side). I have no idea why you selected two random dates but yes in those years we were more moral, more powerful, richer, had much better science, were more civilized, and were much higher educated that Islam plus countless more advantages. Next

Yes the Americans have a honorific history such as the bounty paid for each Indian scalp and slaving..etc :yes:

 

[YmirGF]

The Japanese attacked a military site in pearl harbor and not a civilian site as the American did in killing thousands of civilians in Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

You will never accept any facts because of your confirmation bias.

You condemned the wars of the prophet against the aggressors whereas you blesses the wars of the Americans.

And yet Muslim apologists never explain why people were acting aggressively against their untarnished prophet. He was persecuted. Run out of Mecca, fearing for his life and yet no one explains why he began to get persecuted. It's as if he had nothing to do with the persecution to begin with. He was just reacting to a pack of pagans with bad attitudes, I suppose.

 

[illykitty]

And yet Muslim apologists never explain why people were acting aggressively against their untarnished prophet. He was persecuted. Run out of Mecca, fearing for his life and yet no one explains why he began to get persecuted. It's as if he had nothing to do with the persecution to begin with. He was just reacting to a pack of pagans with bad attitudes, I suppose.

Really? I've seen this explained many times and you can read it up in any life biography of him, heck there's even movies and animation (Muhammad is not shown though as respect towards him and Muslims)... IIRC, it goes something like this (I'll verify later and correct this if wrong - it's early in the morning)...

At the begining the Rulers didn't do anything because he didn't have much followers (and a lot of them were slaves or relatives). Then more people began to follow him, they started to feel threatened because the Quran says Polytheism is wrong and the pilgrimage to Mecca was making them a LOT of money! People would pray to the many gods there and gave away lots of gold to them. If Islam caught on that meant no more big money for them.

They offered him many things, prestige, women, wealth and he refused because he believed in his message, he knew Islam was correct and many others followed. They tortured and killed many converts, the first was a woman, the 7th convert to Islam (Sumayyah bint Khayyat). I can't imagine most Meccans lived well under the Pagan tribes either.

I hope I'm also not wrong in assuming they felt threatened about the changes in lifestyle Muhammad was proposing as well... Making slaves be treated nicely and giving them freedom whenever you can, treating women well (they used to burry infant/children alive simply because they're female), etc. It was the way of the tribes for so long for them it was normal. They didn't like this one bit!

I'm hoping this did justice as an explanation and I'm sorry if I made any mistakes, I'm sure others can explain too and probably better than me, since I have only gotten this information by reading some bits at a time and seeing his life story in movies and such.

 

[dynavert2012]

And yet Muslim apologists never explain why people were acting aggressively against their untarnished prophet. He was persecuted. Run out of Mecca, fearing for his life and yet no one explains why he began to get persecuted. It's as if he had nothing to do with the persecution to begin with. He was just reacting to a pack of pagans with bad attitudes, I suppose.

really, i wonder from the question, and at first i think i got it wrong till i found illykitty a "native English speaker" got it as me, so i decide to take my turn.
the reasons are too much from Quran, hadith and the prophet's biography
for example, Allah said "And they said, "Why was this Qur'an not sent down upon a great man from [one of] the two cities? وDo they distribute the mercy of your Lord?" 43:31-32
and said "Has the message been revealed to him out of [all of] us?" Rather, they are in doubt about My message. Rather, they have not yet tasted My punishment."38:8

from those verses we got that they have a great problem with prophet Mohamed as a person as he wasn't a great person among them, he wasn't habib ibn Amro, nor alwaleed ibn elmogheera those great persons from those cities "Mecca and Taif" and so they couldn't accept a normal man among them to rule them specially that he wasn't the richest, oldest, neither a tribe leader.
they were rich, powerful, rulers and then you asked them to follow a normal man even if he's messenger surly they had to resist

also, most of arab has a problem that the messenger wasn't selected among their tribe and this was the main reason of one like Amro ibn Hesham "Abu jahl" refused to be a Muslim although he seems was convinced that Mohamed is really the god's messenger, just because he's from a different tribe and so this gave this tribe a privilege on his one, it's the stupid Arab's pride.
another reason with the message itself, prophet Mohamed was a messenger like all of those previous messengers, and so he faced what all of them faced, did the people welcome a messenger before?? no, Jesus wasn't welcomes, Moses, Abraham, Noah indeed no one was welcomed and this is what Waraqa had told the prophet when he went to him with his wife asking abut his first revelation " " Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Messenger () described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Messenger () asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." and what was Mohamed came by? he came to them by Justice and equality between them, no difference between white & black, Arab & non Arab, rich & poor, man & woman all are equals in the sight of Allah, so surly this was disliked by the powerful people, they want to keep their power, strength and leading position. and Mohamed will equal between them and their salves, so surly they didn't accept that easily. and that indicated in the Hadith of Ja'far bin Abi Talib to Nigashi 'O king! we were plunged in the depth of ignorance and barbarism; we adored idols, we lived in unchastity, we ate the dead bodies, and we spoke abominations, we disregarded every feeling of humanity, and the duties of hospitality and neighborhood were neglected; we knew no law but that of the strong, when Allah raised among us a man, of whose birth, truthfulness, honesty, and purity we were aware; and he called to the Oneness of Allah , and taught us not to associate anything with Him. He forbade us the worship of idols; and he enjoined us to speak the truth, to be faithful to our trusts, to be merciful and to regard the rights of the neighbors and kith and kin; he forbade us to speak evil of women, or to eat the substance of orphans; he ordered us to fly from the vices, and to abstain from evil; to offer prayers, to render alms, and to observe fast. We have believed in him, we have accepted his teachings and his injunctions to worship Allah, and not to associate anything with Him, and we have allowed what He has allowed, and prohibited what He has prohibited. For this reason, our people have risen against us, have persecuted us in order to make us forsake the worship of Allah and return to the worship of idols and other abominations. They have tortured and injured us, until finding no safety among them; we have come to your country, and hope you will protect us from oppression.” and this speech was in the attendance of Amr ibn Elas "he was an infidel at this moment" and he really dislikes that speech, why? because he wanted to keep his benefits, his position and his power, how to equal between him and a slave like belal ibn rabah, this was fully rejected by them at this time.
and so wonder if we found that some tribes came to the prophet offering him to accept Islam on condition to have the leadership after him, and surly his answer was refusal as ruling is according to Allah's will gives it to who he wills and there's no kingship in Islam

also they used to gain lots of money of making idols and selling it to the pilgrims in the season of pilgrimage and so if they become monotheists, this great trade will be ended and they'll lose a lot of financially rewards

it's too many reasons, but this just a quick tour

 

[YmirGF]

Really? I've seen this explained many times and you can read it up in any life biography of him, heck there's even movies and animation (Muhammad is not shown though as respect towards him and Muslims)... IIRC, it goes something like this (I'll verify later and correct this if wrong - it's early in the morning)...

At the begining the Rulers didn't do anything because he didn't have much followers (and a lot of them were slaves or relatives). Then more people began to follow him, they started to feel threatened because the Quran says Polytheism is wrong and the pilgrimage to Mecca was making them a LOT of money! People would pray to the many gods there and gave away lots of gold to them. If Islam caught on that meant no more big money for them.

They offered him many things, prestige, women, wealth and he refused because he believed in his message, he knew Islam was correct and many others followed. They tortured and killed many converts, the first was a woman, the 7th convert to Islam (Sumayyah bint Khayyat). I can't imagine most Meccans lived well under the Pagan tribes either.

I hope I'm also not wrong in assuming they felt threatened about the changes in lifestyle Muhammad was proposing as well... Making slaves be treated nicely and giving them freedom whenever you can, treating women well (they used to burry infant/children alive simply because they're female), etc. It was the way of the tribes for so long for them it was normal. They didn't like this one bit!

I'm hoping this did justice as an explanation and I'm sorry if I made any mistakes, I'm sure others can explain too and probably better than me, since I have only gotten this information by reading some bits at a time and seeing his life story in movies and such.

Well done, illykitty. That is exactly what the narrative would have you believe, however, there is the unfortunate reality that all chronicles of Muhammad's plight were written by his somewhat fanatical followers. Given that that is the case, it's not likely that they would ever portray him in anything but a flattering light. The poor guy was just trying to bring the perfect religion to mankind, for pity sakes. However, that is not likely how his detractors saw him, though any comments they may have had about said "prophet" have been permanently eradicated from the historical record by the peace-filled prophet's minions.

 

[Quagmire]

This one has an easy answer. Every thing that Jesus claimed was sealed as truth by the fact that God raised him from the dead. It was his stamp of approval on the message he gave. That was one of its primary purposes. The best explanation of the evidence is that he did in fact die and was raised.

So basically, all of your arguments, as well as your belief system in total, are based on "facts" that aren't actually facts at all, just tenets of faith.

Of course, I suppose believing that they are facts--or merely "believing" that you believe them to be ---could also be called tenets of faith.

But only by people who have no idea at all what faith actually is.