Was Muhammad a good man?

[Harold]

Wow. What a negative view of sex. Have you never heard the angels sing during sex?

I think that might get distracting but can you give me the verse?

I believe it has a purpose but I also believe it can become an obsession.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I believe it has a purpose but I also believe it can become an obsession.

Sure. But the obsessed are some of my favorite people.

 

[Harold]

Sure. But the obsessed are some of my favorite people.

Then you will love the TV show "To Catch a Predator".

Here is a group of people who were created by Hollywood. They grew up on the sex, beautiful women, and desires that go along with it. These desires then control them to the point that they are willing to break the law.

Then the same group that created them await their arrival with camera crews and police.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Then you will love the TV show "To Catch a Predator".

Here is a group of people who were created by Hollywood. They grew up on the sex, beautiful women, and desires that go along with it. These desires then control them to the point that they are willing to break the law.

Then the same group that created them await their arrival with camera crews and police.

So those guys wouldn't want to have sex with underaged people unless they had watched TV and movies?

 

[Harold]

So those guys wouldn't want to have sex with underaged people unless they had watched TV and movies?

Muhammad has already proven me wrong on that one. The culture we grow up in and the things we are exposed to alter the way we think and act.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Muhammad has already proven me wrong on that one.

So far as I know, Muhammad didn't sleep with anyone underaged. What is your evidence of that? And can you provide me the age-of-consent law which you believe that he violated?

 

[Harold]

So far as I know, Muhammad didn't sleep with anyone underaged. What is your evidence of that? And can you provide me the age-of-consent law which you believe that he violated?

My understanding and keep in mind that the information has been skewed so badly on both sides it is hard to say but according to a lot of sources online the girl was 9.

And I do not need an age of consent law or for that matter any law made by man to tell me sleeping with a 9 year old is sleeping with an under-aged girl. But since I wasn't there...I can't debate you on the age of the girl however I can tell you that any religion or any group, country or army that believes in killing everyone that does not agree with them...has to be wrong.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

My understanding and keep in mind that the information has been skewed so badly on both sides it is hard to say but according to a lot of sources online the girl was 9.

Then I hope you won't repeat it... since we can't know what really happened.

And I do not need an age of consent law or for that matter any law made by man to tell me sleeping with a 9 year old is sleeping with an under-aged girl.

So what is the proper and right and moral age at which two people can have sex?

But since I wasn't there...I can't debate you on the age of the girl however I can tell you that any religion or any group, country or army that believes in killing everyone that does not agree with them...has to be wrong.

Some say that's what Christianity teaches and believes.

I never take such talk too seriously.

 

[1robin]

Actually, the word that is used in Aramaic is (akhyahoon) meaning 'their (fraternal) brethren". It is derived from (akhya) which means: "Fraternal brother" - not of the same race or lineage. You can see the details of that in this article which completely refutes your arguments above : http://home.comcast.net/~rzuberi/articles/Deuteronomy1818.pdf

The Bible defines it's own words. Not Islam. This is one of the most respected biblical online sources there is: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H251&t=KJV

It's source was: The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, edited by R. Laird Harris, GLeason L. Archer, Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke. TWOT deals with the Hebrew/Aramaic words in the Old Testament that have a theological significance. It gives a short definition to every Old Testament word, but goes theologically in depth on the words that would be necessary.

Here is the actual Hebrew from a trusted Jewish source: טו נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי, יָקִים לְךָ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ: אֵלָיו, תִּשְׁמָעוּן.
Here is how that HEBREW site translated it: 15 A prophet will the LORD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deuteronomy 18 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Here is another one from a Jewish source: 18:15
nbia prophet
+# רְ ְ * מִ ִ
m·qrb·k from·within-of·you + מֵאַחֶי
m·achi·k from·brothers-of·you
מֹנִי ָ km·ni like·me יָקִי
iqim he-shall-craise-up

The LORD thy God
will raise up unto thee a
Prophet from the midst of
thee, of thy brethren, like
unto me; unto him ye shall
hearken;

Once again why does everyone get exactly the same interpretation of a verse one way and Islam another? Of course if you willing to plagiarize well known gnostic and heretical sources and burn any competitors to one mans version of one mans text then what is a little fudging on a translation?

However your translation makes the verse meaningless.

The word and the verse state the prophet would be a Jew, give it up.

Seriously ? You are trying to show a verse from the Qur'an to say that no prophet hood from Ishmael - while the Qur'an itself came to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) ... descendant of Ishmael(pbuh) ? What an irony ...

I am not trying to do anything. I simply posted a surah. It says what it says. However since that is not convenient the only thing you will not allow it to say will be what it actually says. I was only interested in how you would go about it.

Nail the coffin ? It didn't even create a peeking hole in there...rather it just made you look like a typical 'cherry picker' and propagator of falsehood that you are. Just quoting one verse that shows Isaac is a prophet which we already believe, proves what ? Here's the nail in the coffin for you ....

I don't think you understand the metaphor. Nailing means to close, not open a hole.

"And mention in the Book, Ishmael. Indeed, he was true to his promise, and he was a messenger and a prophet." Al Qur'an 19:54

I know about the verses mentioning Ishmael. The only thing they add is the fact the Quran contradicts it's self.

"Indeed, We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], as We revealed to Noah and the prophets after him. And we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the Descendants, Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the book [of Psalms]." Al Qur'an 4:163

See the above. By the way why start with Noah instead of Adam or Abraham. Starting with Noah is arbitrary.

"And We gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - all [of them] We guided. And Noah, We guided before; and among his descendants, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward the doers of good. And Zechariah and John and Jesus and Elias - and all were of the righteous. And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot - and all [of them] We preferred over the worlds." Al Qur'an 6:84-86

and here's the one that you should love ...

See the above.

"Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you more knowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do." Al Qur'an 2:140

Now this verse is confusing. What is it you think it is saying?

How pathetically you failed ...



In the Book of Isaish. Chapter 29, verse 12, we read: "AND THE BOOK" (al-Kitaab,al-Quran the 'Readin g', the 'Recitation') "IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED," (Isaiah 29:12) "THE UNLETTERED PROPHET " (Holy Qur'an 7:158) and the biblical verse continues : "SAYING, READ THIS, I PRAY THEE:" (the words "I pray thee", are not in the Hebrew manuscripts; compare with the Roman Cathol ics' "Douay Version and also with the "Revised Standard Versions") "AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." ("I am not learned." is the exact translation of the Arabic words which Muhummed uttered twice to the Holy Ghose - the Archangel Gabriel, when he was commanded : "READ!").

Let me quote the verse in full without a break as found in the "King James Version," or the "Authorised version" as it is more popularly know "AND THE BOOK IS DELIVERED TO HIM THAT IS NOT LEARNED, SAYING, READ THIS I PRAY THEE: AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT LEARNED." (Isaiah 29:12).

And yeah, you are yet to show me the verse from the Bible stating that the false Prophet would deny Jesus the Christ as a Savior.

So, no, I have not seen an iota of evidence from you for you claims that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) fails the True Prophet test(or meets the false Prophet test) from Bible - on the contrary I have proven to you with scriptural evidence that he is the one mentioned as the Prophet to come. I don't see any point to continue refuting your false baseless claims(without any evidence) anymore.

Peace.

I am under no obligation and no justification for considering a single word in the Quran as from God. So posting them as evidence against the bible is of no use in my case. My authors were more than one person and were actually there for the events we are talking about. Not one of yours were. I did not bring up the Quran verse to make an emphatic case but to add the final touch on an argument that was virtually over before it began. I know the Quran contradicts it's self. Pointing out contradictory verses are of no help to you. The entire text under discussion is Jewish and or Biblical. I have given you Jewish sources and biblical sources. I have never seen a non-Islamic source that even hints that verse means a non-Jew. There just isn't a debate here about hat verse. We could debate about the meanings of contradictory Quran verses all day but that is not the issue.

Here is the most trusted commentator in history, on that verse: Verses 15-22 It is here promised concerning Christ, that there should come a Prophet, great above all the prophets; by whom God would make known himself and his will to the children of men, more fully and clearly than he had ever done before. He is the Light of the world, ( John 8:12 ) . He is the World by whom God speaks to us, ( John 1:1 , Hebrews 1:2 ) . In his birth he should be one of their nation. In his resurrection he should be raised up at Jerusalem, and from thence his doctrine should go forth to all the world. Thus God, having raised up his Son Christ Jesus, sent him to bless us. He should be like unto Moses, only above him. This prophet is come, even JESUS; and is "He that should come," and we are to look for no other. The view of God which he gives, will not terrify or overwhelm, but encourages us. He speaks with fatherly affection and Divine authority united. Whoever refuses to listen to Jesus Christ, shall find it is at his peril; the same that is the Prophet is to be his Judge, ( John 12:48 ) . Woe then to those who refuse to hearken to His voice, to accept His salvation, or yield obedience to His sway! But happy they who trust in Him, and obey Him. He will lead them in the paths of safety and peace, until He brings them to the land of perfect light, purity, and happiness. Here is a caution against false prophets. It highly concerns us to have a right touchstone wherewith to try the word we hear, that we may know what that word is which the Lord has not spoken. Whatever is against the plain sense of the written word, or which gives countenance or encouragement to sin, we may be sure is not that which the Lord has spoken.

 

[Harold]

Then I hope you won't repeat it... since we can't know what really happened.

Yes you are correct. I should not have said that.

So what is the proper and right and moral age at which two people can have sex?

It would depend on the person but it should be after marriage and after the girl has stopped growing. And the girl should be not be forced into the marriage.

Some say that's what Christianity teaches and believes.

I never take such talk too seriously.

Yes, but not knowing or understanding what was happening back then or knowing rather content has been changed makes it difficult to judge.

But when someone is practicing it to this day...

Also if what you believe is correct you should be able to debate it or convince someone of what you feel is correct without cutting off their head.

 

[loverOfTruth]

The Bible defines it's own words. Not Islam. This is one of the most respected biblical online sources there is: Hebrew Lexicon :: H251 (KJV)

It's source was: The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, edited by R. Laird Harris, GLeason L. Archer, Jr., and Bruce K. Waltke. TWOT deals with the Hebrew/Aramaic words in the Old Testament that have a theological significance. It gives a short definition to every Old Testament word, but goes theologically in depth on the words that would be necessary.

Here is the actual Hebrew from a trusted Jewish source: טו נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי, יָקִים לְךָ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ: אֵלָיו, תִּשְׁמָעוּן.
Here is how that HEBREW site translated it: 15 A prophet will the LORD thy God raise up unto thee, from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
Deuteronomy 18 / Hebrew - English Bible / Mechon-Mamre

Here is another one from a Jewish source: 18:15
nbia prophet
+# רְ ְ * מִ ִ
m·qrb·k from·within-of·you + מֵאַחֶי
m·achi·k from·brothers-of·you
מֹנִי ָ km·ni like·me יָקִי
iqim he-shall-craise-up

The LORD thy God
will raise up unto thee a
Prophet from the midst of
thee, of thy brethren, like
unto me; unto him ye shall
hearken;

Once again why does everyone get exactly the same interpretation of a verse one way and Islam another? Of course if you willing to plagiarize well known gnostic and heretical sources and burn any competitors to one mans version of one mans text then what is a little fudging on a translation?

However your translation makes the verse meaningless.

The word and the verse state the prophet would be a Jew, give it up.



I am not trying to do anything. I simply posted a surah. It says what it says. However since that is not convenient the only thing you will not allow it to say will be what it actually says. I was only interested in how you would go about it.

I don't think you understand the metaphor. Nailing means to close, not open a hole.

I know about the verses mentioning Ishmael. The only thing they add is the fact the Quran contradicts it's self.

See the above. By the way why start with Noah instead of Adam or Abraham. Starting with Noah is arbitrary.

See the above.

Now this verse is confusing. What is it you think it is saying?

I am under no obligation and no justification for considering a single word in the Quran as from God. So posting them as evidence against the bible is of no use in my case. My authors were more than one person and were actually there for the events we are talking about. Not one of yours were. I did not bring up the Quran verse to make an emphatic case but to add the final touch on an argument that was virtually over before it began. I know the Quran contradicts it's self. Pointing out contradictory verses are of no help to you. The entire text under discussion is Jewish and or Biblical. I have given you Jewish sources and biblical sources. I have never seen a non-Islamic source that even hints that verse means a non-Jew. There just isn't a debate here about hat verse. We could debate about the meanings of contradictory Quran verses all day but that is not the issue.

Here is the most trusted commentator in history, on that verse: Verses 15-22 It is here promised concerning Christ, that there should come a Prophet, great above all the prophets; by whom God would make known himself and his will to the children of men, more fully and clearly than he had ever done before. He is the Light of the world, ( John 8:12 ) . He is the World by whom God speaks to us, ( John 1:1 , Hebrews 1:2 ) . In his birth he should be one of their nation. In his resurrection he should be raised up at Jerusalem, and from thence his doctrine should go forth to all the world. Thus God, having raised up his Son Christ Jesus, sent him to bless us. He should be like unto Moses, only above him. This prophet is come, even JESUS; and is "He that should come," and we are to look for no other. The view of God which he gives, will not terrify or overwhelm, but encourages us. He speaks with fatherly affection and Divine authority united. Whoever refuses to listen to Jesus Christ, shall find it is at his peril; the same that is the Prophet is to be his Judge, ( John 12:48 ) . Woe then to those who refuse to hearken to His voice, to accept His salvation, or yield obedience to His sway! But happy they who trust in Him, and obey Him. He will lead them in the paths of safety and peace, until He brings them to the land of perfect light, purity, and happiness. Here is a caution against false prophets. It highly concerns us to have a right touchstone wherewith to try the word we hear, that we may know what that word is which the Lord has not spoken. Whatever is against the plain sense of the written word, or which gives countenance or encouragement to sin, we may be sure is not that which the Lord has spoken.

As I stated, I am not gonna waste my time responding to your made up stuff ... specially since you still can't show the biblical verse about your false claims about false prophet. Which proves me right again.
And not to mention how you avoided the Isaiah 29:12 prophecy about the 'not learned/unlettered' prophet.

And by the way, you are really making yourself look bad by claiming the contradiction about the Qur'an. So if in once place God talks about Isaac and Jacob and another place he talks about Ishmael and in another place God talks about them all, that is contradiction ? Of course, now that you had been exposed - that's the only excuse left.

Peace.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

It would depend on the person but it should be after marriage and after the girl has stopped growing.

Why marriage? I mean, you don't think people should have sex unless they have a marriage certificate from the political authority where they live? If so, what if marriage is allowed for a 12-year-old girl, as it is in some places? Is that OK?

As for not growing anymore, people grow mentally and physically until they are probably in their early 20s. Do you think that all marriages through the ages of folks under 20 years old... those have been wrong marriages somehow?

And the girl should be not be forced into the marriage.

Hey, I wish that went for men too. I might still be a bachelor!

Yes, but not knowing or understanding what was happening back then or knowing rather content has been changed makes it difficult to judge.

Wise words.

Also if what you believe is correct you should be able to debate it or convince someone of what you feel is correct without cutting off their head.

I don't think many Muslims threaten to cut people's head off for resisting coversion anymore.

 

[1robin]

As I stated, I am not gonna waste my time responding to your made up stuff ... specially since you still can't show the biblical verse about your false claims about false prophet. Which proves me right again.
And not to mention how you avoided the Isaiah 29:12 prophecy about the 'not learned/unlettered' prophet.

And by the way, you are really making yourself look bad by claiming the contradiction about the Qur'an. So if in once place God talks about Isaac and Jacob and another place he talks about Ishmael and in another place God talks about them all, that is contradiction ? Of course, now that you had been exposed - that's the only excuse left.

Peace.

Yeah what do the Jews know about their own scriptures and the most trusted commentator in history about commentary. What's the point after that?

 

[loverOfTruth]

Yeah what do the Jews know about their own scriptures and the most trusted commentator in history about commentary. What's the point after that?

Irony after irony (on top of lack of scriptural evidence for false claims) ... as if the Jews think that prophecy is about Jesus (pbuh). Need I say more ?

 

[gnostic]

Damn it, I have break my reply into 2.

And I give you one more...THE AWAITED PROPHET WAS TO COME FROM ARABIA

The Old Testament prophesises the coming of a Prophet from Arabia who would be from the descendants of Kedar. The verses of Isaiah 42 describe the coming of a Prophet who God refers to as ‘my Messenger’ (Isaiah 42:19). This Messenger would be from ‘the villages that Kedar inhabits’ (Isaiah 42:11), which means that the Messenger would emerge from Arabia since that’s where the villages of the descendants of Kedar lived according to Isaiah 21:13-17. This Messenger would give ‘judgment’, ‘light’ and ‘Law’ to the ‘Gentiles’ (Isaiah 42:1-4). Gentiles is a term referring to the non-Jews. This Messenger would be a ‘man of war’ who will first be persecuted and then will fight and defeat idol worshippers (Isaiah 42:13-17).

This description fits Muhammad (pbuh) exactly. Muhammad (pbuh) emerged from Arabia and was a direct descendant of Kedar, he was persecuted by and then fought and defeated the idol worshippers [3]. He bought about ‘judgment’ and ‘law’ to a lawless Arab people (Arabs would be classed as ‘Gentiles&#8217 when he became the ruler of the Arabian Peninsula.

So, no, I have not seen an iota of evidence from you for you claims that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) fails the Prophet test from Bible - on the contrary I have proven to you with scriptural evidence that he is the one mentioned as the Prophet to come.

You can't string up a verse here and verse there, and speculate this is referring to a "prophet" coming out of Isaiah 42.

I don't believe in prophets, whether they be Hebrews, Christians or Muslims, but I do believe in read the text in context with the whole chapter (Isaiah 42), or even chapters (like 40, 41, 43, 44, etc) that surrounded the one (42) you are quoting from.

Nowhere in Isaiah 42 does it say that a prophet will come out of Kedar.

All it (42:11) say that the villages of Kedar will sing praise to the LORD, whom I take to be god, unless you think the LORD / yhwäh / יהוָה֙ is a man (like your prophet)?

Here is the translation to Isaiah 42:11, plus the surrounding verses:

10 שִׁ֤ירוּ לַֽיהוָה֙ שִׁ֣יר חָדָ֔שׁ תְּהִלָּתֹ֖ו מִקְצֵ֣ה הָאָ֑רֶץ יֹורְדֵ֤י הַיָּם֙ וּמְלֹאֹ֔ו אִיִּ֖ים וְיֹשְׁבֵיהֶֽם׃

11 יִשְׂא֤וּ מִדְבָּר֙ וְעָרָ֔יו חֲצֵרִ֖ים תֵּשֵׁ֣ב קֵדָ֑ר יָרֹ֙נּוּ֙ יֹ֣שְׁבֵי סֶ֔לַע מֵרֹ֥אשׁ הָרִ֖ים יִצְוָֽחוּ׃

12 יָשִׂ֥ימוּ לַֽיהוָ֖ה כָּבֹ֑וד וּתְהִלָּתֹ֖ו בָּאִיִּ֥ים יַגִּֽידוּ׃

10 shiyrû layhwäh shiyr chädäsh T'hiLätô miq'tzëh hääretz yôr'dëy haYäm ûm'loô iYiym w'yosh'vëyhem

11 yis'û mid'Bär w'äräyw chátzëriym Tëshëv qëdär yäroNû yosh'vëy šela mërosh häriym yitz'wächû

12 yäsiymû layhwäh Kävôd ût'hiLätô BäiYiym yaGiydû

10 Sing to the Lord a new song,
His praise from the ends of the earth—
You who sail the sea and you creatures in it,
You coastlands and their inhabitants!

11 Let the desert and its towns cry aloud,
The villages where Kedar dwells;
Let Sela’s inhabitants shout,
Call out from the peaks of the mountains.

12 Let them do honor to the Lord,
And tell His glory in the coastlands.

It is talking of all coastlines, mountains, it is not just talking of Kedar.

And you are forgetting that in this same verse (42:11), it also speak of Sela, which means "Rock". Sela is located in Edom, which is not in the Arabian Peninsula, and no where near Mecca, the supposed place Muhammad was born in.

I will speak more of places (mountains and coastlines) later on, because I would like you to read the following points.

You think that the word "servant" and "messenger" - in Isaiah 42:19 - referred to a "prophet", more specifically "Muhammad".

The reference to Kedar (and Sela) does not connect in any way to "servant" or "messenger", but if this "messenger" or "servant" mean a specific person, then it would mean the patriarch "Jacob", who was otherwise, known as "Israel".

Jacob was given the new name "Israel" when he wrestled an angel in Peniel (Genesis 32:22-32). Israel is synonymous with Jacob.

Now, Israel can mean the people (of Israel), hence Israelites (descendants of Jacob), or it could mean all TWELVE TRIBES of Israel as a nation, or it could mean the Iron Age northern kingdom (of 10 tribes, in which Samaria was its capital), or it could mean the patriarch himself - Jacob.

Tell me, LoverOfTruth, that if you actually believe in following and seeking the truth, objectively:

Was Muhammad ever synonymous with Israel? Yes? No? I don't know?​

 

[gnostic]

(Part 2)

Did you bother to read those other chapters that I had mentioned surrounding Isaiah 42, earlier on in my reply?

Isaiah 40:27, we see that Jacob and Israel is linked together:

Why do you say, O Jacob,
and speak, O Israel,
“My way is hidden from the Lord,
and my right is disregarded by my God”?

There are no mention of "Kedar" here or the Ishmaelite. There are also no mention of "servant", but let's look at the next chapter.​

Isaiah 41:8, where it clearly say "Israel, my servant, Jacob".

But you, Israel, my servant,
Jacob, whom I have chosen,
the offspring of Abraham, my friend;

If we are to believe Muhammad to be that servant, would it say somewhere in that verse (41:8) about Ishmael? Ishmael, son of Abraham, and whom Muhammad so-claimed to be descendant to Ishamel?

But we see the same things in later verses, that say the servant is Jacob/Israel, not Ishmael/Muhammad. No where in Isaiah 41, do I see any connection between "servant" and "Kedar".​

Israel 43:1 have only mentioned Jacob & Israel, together...

But now thus says the Lord,
he who created you, O Jacob,
he who formed you, O Israel:

...but not servant in the same verse. It does, however mentioned servant again, later in the chapter - Isaiah 43:10:

You are my witnesses, says the Lord,
and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.

Nowhere in this chapter, does it connect the "servant" to Kedar.​

Isaiah 44:1-2, say "O Jacob, my servant..." and no where is Kedar mentioned here in Isaiah 44:

1 But now hear, O Jacob my servant,
Israel whom I have chosen!

2 Thus says the Lord who made you,
who formed you in the womb and will help you:
Do not fear, O Jacob my servant,
Jeshurun whom I have chosen.

Here we have Jacob, Israel and servant mention in 2 verses, but no Kedar, or descendant of Ishmael. We even have "Jeshurun", which is another name for both Jacob and Israel.​

Do I really know need to go on, loveroftruth?

Isaiah 45:4, the servant is again linked to Jacob and Israel:

For the sake of my servant Jacob,
and Israel my chosen,
I call you by your name,
I surname you, though you do not know me.

There are another 4 verses in Isaiah, which say Jacob is god's servant: 48:20, 49:5-6 and 65:9.

Go out from Babylon, flee from Chaldea,
declare this with a shout of joy, proclaim it,
send it forth to the end of the earth;
say, “The Lord has redeemed his servant Jacob!”

I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
and from Judah inheritors of my mountains;
my chosen shall inherit it,
and my servants shall settle there.

But what is interesting in Isaiah 49:6, in which the tribes of Jacob (not Israel):

5 And now the Lord says,
who formed me in the womb to be his servant,
to bring Jacob back to him,
and that Israel might be gathered to him,
for I am honored in the sight of the Lord,
and my God has become my strength—
6 he says,
“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to restore the survivors of Israel;
I will give you as a light to the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

When I read "servant" in connection with "Jacob" or "Israel", elsewhere in Isaiah, then I have no doubt in my mind that this "messenger" or "servant" in Isaiah 42:19 is probably Jacob/Israel, not Muhammad.

And "restore the survivors of Israel" is clearly referring to what happened to the kingdom of Israel, as well as the fall of its capital, Samaria (722 BCE).

Then there is this part, from you:

This Messenger would give ‘judgment’, ‘light’ and ‘Law’ to the ‘Gentiles’ (Isaiah 42:1-4). Gentiles is a term referring to the non-Jews.

Isaiah 42:6, is certainly not the only the verse that mentioned "a light to the nations".

I am the Lord, I have called you in righteousness,
I have taken you by the hand and kept you;
I have given you as a covenant to the people,[a]
a light to the nations,

And 49:6 clearly doesn't mention gentile or Kedar in relation to "a light to the nations".

It doesn't say that the messenger or servant would be a non-Jewish, non-Hebrew or a Gentile, hence it doesn't mean that there will be a prophet of Ishmaelite descent.

Likewise, bringing justice and light to other nations, never linked that any prophet will be non-Jewish prophet.

Again, looked at 49:5-6, it stated that Jacob is god's servant, and that it is from him and his descendants that will bring light to nations.

The question is - WHY do you ignore other chapters and verses that clearly state that Jacob/Israel is God's servant and that link Jacob/Israel/servant to "a light to the nations"?

Perhaps, you ignored them because you really not interested in the "truth" after all.

 

[1robin]

Irony after irony (on top of lack of scriptural evidence for false claims) ... as if the Jews think that prophecy is about Jesus (pbuh). Need I say more ?

Your missing the ingredients for irony.

We were discussing Jewish scriptures. I said the Jews plus Christians would be the better source for interpretation of their own texts. No irony there.

I supplied what the Quran emphatically states. You DID NOT give an alternate interpretation of that Surah. You instead supplied others Surah's that made opposite claims. There was not disagreement over who should interpret that Surah because my interpretation (which was only a reading on the verse) was not challenged. No irony there.

How ironic!!

 

[loverOfTruth]

Your missing the ingredients for irony.

We were discussing Jewish scriptures. I said the Jews plus Christians would be the better source for interpretation of their own texts. No irony there.

And why on earth would Christians be better source for Jewish Scriptures ? And the irony remains ...

I supplied what the Quran emphatically states. You DID NOT give an alternate interpretation of that Surah. You instead supplied others Surah's that made opposite claims. There was not disagreement over who should interpret that Surah because my interpretation (which was only a reading on the verse) was not challenged. No irony there.

I have explained it very well...go back and read it.

How ironic!!

Specially, since you still can't show the biblical verse about your false claims about false prophet. Not only that, you couldn't counter any of my arguments showing why Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) fits the true Prophet prophecies and does not meet the false prophet criteria mentioned in the Bible itself.

So I rest my case here.

 

[1robin]

And why on earth would Christians be better source for Jewish Scriptures ? And the irony remains ...

Something that does not exist has no duration. I did not necessarily say the Christians are the best source. I said your argument requires Islam to be the best source and the Jewish people to not understand scriptures they have been studying for over twice as long and the people to whom the verses were given. Christianity would be a potentially better source for verses that impact it. There is no book on Earth as well studied as the bible and no group who have studied any book as much as the Christians concerning the bible. Christians are the only group that wholly embrace both testaments and all the doctrines they contain.

I have explained it very well...go back and read it.

I tell you what out of laziness I will assume you did and change my argument. I went back several posts. Can you instead supply the post number that contains the explanation of that specific Surah?

Specially, since you still can't show the biblical verse about your false claims about false prophet. Not only that, you couldn't counter any of my arguments showing why Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) fits the true Prophet prophecies and does not meet the false prophet criteria mentioned in the Bible itself.

So I rest my case here.

Please stop typing out a bunch of claims then at the bottom when I have responded to a whole post give up the whole discussion. If you want to quit do so at the beginning of a post so I don't waste a bunch of time. Let me ask you something in all sincerity. I debate with over half a dozen world views and each have their own peculiarities. However why is it always the Islamic group that will simply quit, in a debate? I have known Islam for many things but the lack of dedication is not one of them. If it were not for their tenacity I would assume it was a teaching in the Quran, to not contend with anyone for too long. That is at least admirable. However the Quran's persist contend with everyone until they are subdued or defeated attitude, does not allow for this. Something else must explain such consistent bailing out.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I will rearrange some of your quotes so I can reply in an orderly fashion.

Tell me, LoverOfTruth, that if you actually believe in following and seeking the truth, objectively:

Was Muhammad ever synonymous with Israel? Yes? No? I don't know?​

The answer to your above question is NO. However, I will show you how the 'Servant' in Isaiah 42 was not about Israel but rather about Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

All it (42:11) say that the villages of Kedar will sing praise to the LORD, whom I take to be god, unless you think the LORD / yhwäh / יהוָה֙ is a man (like your prophet)?

That statement above reveals your fundamental lack of knowledge about Islam. Now I can understand why you don't think that prophecy is about Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). Just a preview : Muslims DO NOT worship Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)...rather we worship the LORD, GOD and sing His praises through out the day and especially during Hajj(pilgrimage in Makkah). I'll explain this further later in my reply.

You can't string up a verse here and verse there, and speculate this is referring to a "prophet" coming out of Isaiah 42.

I don't believe in prophets, whether they be Hebrews, Christians or Muslims, but I do believe in read the text in context with the whole chapter (Isaiah 42), or even chapters (like 40, 41, 43, 44, etc) that surrounded the one (42) you are quoting from.

Nowhere in Isaiah 42 does it say that a prophet will come out of Kedar.

Seems like you have read everything else except Isaiah 42. So let's begin.

Throughout the Book of Isaiah (not only 42) we clearly see that GOD Almighty was going back and forth between loving and cursing the people of Israel. This clearly means that it was about events in different times with a big gap between them and you cannot claim that it was talking about the same thing all through. So you just because Isaiah 43 is talking about Isreal, doesn't mean that Isaiah 42 is also. You have to read each one separately carefully and then make assertions. Now let's get into Isaiah 42.

Continued in part 2 ...