Was Muhammad a Messenger of God?

[Vinayaka]

There was a great deal of attention paid to cosmology and astronomy before Copernicus came along.

Indeed. https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/h/Heliocentrism.htm

 

[Vinayaka]

You just can't help yourself can you? Me too! I stayed out of these for a few months and popped back in a few weeks ago to see if there was anything enlightening going on. There wasn't - but its a bit like those TV soap operas that everyone despises but somehow can't switch off. Strangely and annoyingly addictive.

I wonder how long this one will go. Surely it can't beat the other one, which finally died. LoverofHumanity and Tony don't seem to be around, but it seems there are always others to step in to the shoes, start a new thread that allows for plenty of Baha'i' talk, and then just wait. It's quite the pattern now.

 

[Vinayaka]

Why don't you tell us how you really feel @Trailblazer - I'd be interested in @adrian009 's take on this though - I seem to recall he objected strongly to my suggestion that profoundly religious experiences might be delusional. I'm guessing he'll probably try to defend his fellow Baha'i by suggesting that in the current context it means "mistaken" rather than "mentally confused".

You're so good at prophecy, lol.

 

[siti]

There was a great deal of attention paid to cosmology and astronomy before Copernicus came along.

Correct - you have a habit of side-tracking points though - the point is not about whether ancient peoples or medieval Islamic scholars - or anyone else - had devised a heliocentric model - the question is about whether anyone did that directly or indirectly as a result of what Muhammad "revealed" as a "Messenger of God". And the answer of course is no - they did not. They failed - even on the basis of the Muhammadan revelation - to perceive of a truth that already been hinted at by ancient cosmologies stretching back (again) more than a thousand years before Muhammad. Didn't they?!!

 

[siti]

You're so good at prophecy, lol.

I know - I put it down to my JW training. But that was in a previous life.

 

[Trailblazer]

But everyone except for one small break off sect of Islam is deluded.

No, absolutely not. Only Christians who believe in the doctrines of the Church are deluded, because they are man-made doctrines and do not represent what Jesus ever said.

Baha'is do not believe that other religious beleivers are deluded.

 

[siti]

Only Christians who believe in the doctrines of the Church are deluded, because they are man-made doctrines and do not represent what Jesus ever said.

How do you know what Jesus ever said?

 

[Dawnofhope]

That makes all those millions of Christians deluded doesn't it?

Yes it does.

Why don't you tell us how you really feel @Trailblazer - I'd be interested in @adrian009 's take on this though - I seem to recall he objected strongly to my suggestion that profoundly religious experiences might be delusional. I'm guessing he'll probably try to defend his fellow Baha'i by suggesting that in the current context it means "mistaken" rather than "mentally confused".

I personally would say they are Christian beliefs and leave it at that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why don't you tell us how you really feel @Trailblazer - I'd be interested in @adrian009 's take on this though - I seem to recall he objected strongly to my suggestion that profoundly religious experiences might be delusional. I'm guessing he'll probably try to defend his fellow Baha'i by suggesting that in the current context it means "mistaken" rather than "mentally confused".

The context of my answer to CG "Yes it does" is that Christians who believe that Jesus was God in the flesh are deluded, IMB.

But since you brought up religious experiences, I believe that anyone who thinks that they heard from God is deluded, unless they were one of God's Chosen Messengers... As for religious experiences, I believe those are possible and I even believe that the Messengers in the spiritual world can communicate to individuals on earth. My husband told me about two experiences wherein Abdu'l-Baha communicated with him and I believe him.

 

[Trailblazer]

How do you know what Jesus ever said?

I don't know what Jesus said, I only know what Jesus allegedly said, according to the Gospels.
So what I meant is that there is no place in the Gospels where Jesus said He was God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So what? He got his facts wrong - that much is certain - did he deliberately present a skewed view in order to influence his audience or was he genuinely confused about the historical occurrences of infanticide? Hype or tripe are the only options in this case, I'm afraid.

No - not a chance - that blog convinces me even more that any heliocentric interpretation of Qur'anic verses is contrived...the very fact that some of the verses put the planets in the "lowest heaven" betrays a Ptolemaic view to start with. Of course everyone knew that light came from the sun - that doesn't put the sun at the center. In the Qur'an, the sun is still racing across the sky to "it's place" - just as it had in Hebrew cosmology a thousand or two years earlier. Anyway, I'll allow a second appeal on this one if you can quote a single authority in the Islamic "Golden Age" that espoused a heliocentric cosmology based any of these verses before Copernicus and Gallileo. If that's what Muhammad meant it surely couldn't have escaped all of them.

PS - here's a link to a page with dozens of generally accepted English translations of the verse referenced in the Baha'i account of Abdu'l Baha's talk - none of them seem to me to indicate anything to do with a heliocentric model of the solar system - anyone disagree?

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/36/38/

You are referring to this statement of Abdulbaha:

"But in the Qur’án a number of verses were revealed which contradicted the Ptolemaic system. One of them, “The sun moves in a fixed place of its own”,[6] alludes to the fixity of the sun and its movement around an axis. "
Some answered questions

 

[Dawnofhope]

But everyone except for one small break off sect of Islam is deluded. You should know that by now, after all this 'debate'. Have at it, Sir. I shan't be joining this time around. (Well I just did I guess. Shucks.)

I wonder how long this one will go. Surely it can't beat the other one, which finally died. LoverofHumanity and Tony don't seem to be around, but it seems there are always others to step in to the shoes, start a new thread that allows for plenty of Baha'i' talk, and then just wait. It's quite the pattern now.

Nice to see you pop in.

I'm certainly not wanting another marathon thread either. I like it when people give their views, have some informative discussion, and if opinions differ, agree to disagree. No alternative motive other than a thought provoking discussion either.

You may be interested that we have a female Baha'i posting @Trailblazer . I recall you wondered if there was a reason why none of the Baha'is on the previous thread were female.

 

[stvdv]

Nice to see you pop in.
I'm certainly not wanting another marathon thread either. I like it when people give their views, have some informative discussion, and if opinions differ, agree to disagree. No alternative motive other than a thought provoking discussion either.
You may be interested that we have a female Baha'i posting @Trailblazer . I recall you wondered if there was a reason why none of the Baha'is on the previous thread were female.

Good and important information which would have been helpful at the beginning of the marathon thread. But then again it would have not been the same thread anymore

 

[Dawnofhope]

Good and important information which would have been helpful at the beginning of the marathon thread. But then again it would have not been the same thread anymore

FYI @Vinayaka , @siti, @InvestigateTruth , myself and quite a few others participated in this mammoth thread for much of last year.

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/how-are-these-great-beings-explained.195981/

It had nearly 18,000 posts! None of us want to go down that rabbit hole again lol.

This thread is a drop in the ocean by comparison!

 

[siti]

I personally would say they are Christian beliefs and leave it at that.

Oh Adrian - I am disappointed - when I made a point about the connection between delusion and religious beliefs I got a full blown lecture on why DSM5 specifically excludes religious beliefs (no matter how bizarre) from symptoms betraying a delusional state of mind - your fellow Baha'i gets away with "it just means they believe differently"?

Anyway, since I didn't bring it up this time, I don't feel quite so reticent in following up - especially since we are discussing Muhammad's Messengership (is that a new word I just made up?)

If Jesus did not allegedly allege that he was God and those who allegedly do allege that he was even though he allegedly does not allege that in any of his alleged sayings - allegedly - do indeed allege that he was, is it appropriate to allege delusion on their part? And if so, could not the same argument also be alleged against people who allege that Muhammad was allegedly the Messenger of God in a manner in which none of the alleged sayings of Muhammad allegedly allege?

 

[siti]

You are referring to this statement of Abdulbaha:

"But in the Qur’án a number of verses were revealed which contradicted the Ptolemaic system. One of them, “The sun moves in a fixed place of its own”,[6] alludes to the fixity of the sun and its movement around an axis. "
Some answered questions

Yes IT - you catch on pretty quickly! So does the page I linked to contain accurate English translations of the verse from the Qur'an that Abdu'l Baha was referring to? Do any of them even giving a reasonably wide latitude of interpretation - even remotely support the argument that the Qur'an promotes a heliocentric model of the solar system? Is it not truer to suggest that, at best, this verse possibly allows - but certainly doesn't support - that interpretation.

 

[Trailblazer]

This thread is a drop in the ocean by comparison!

Your mammoth thread is not as long as a thread on another forum I used to post on entitled "Why Jesus is not a God." It has 32, 991 posts... It and it has been going since December 2009 and it is still going, with new posts added each day. Essentially it is a debate between a couple of Christians and a couple of Jews.

 

[stvdv]

FYI @Vinayaka , @siti, @InvestigateTruth , myself and quite a few others participated in this mammoth thread for much of last year.
https://www.religiousforums.com/threads/how-are-these-great-beings-explained.195981/
It had nearly 18,000 posts! None of us want to go down that rabbit hole again lol.
This thread is a drop in the ocean by comparison!

18.000 replies. Wow, and still not everything was said. God/Messengers must be great. Keep you all on your toes for 18.000 posts is proof enough

 

[Dawnofhope]

Oh Adrian - I am disappointed - when I made a point about the connection between delusion and religious beliefs I got a full blown lecture on why DSM5 specifically excludes religious beliefs (no matter how bizarre) from symptoms betraying a delusional state of mind - your fellow Baha'i gets away with "it just means they believe differently"?

Anyway, since I didn't bring it up this time, I don't feel quite so reticent in following up - especially since we are discussing Muhammad's Messengership (is that a new word I just made up?)

If Jesus did not allegedly allege that he was God and those who allegedly do allege that he was even though he allegedly does not allege that in any of his alleged sayings - allegedly - do indeed allege that he was, is it appropriate to allege delusion on their part? And if so, could not the same argument also be alleged against people who allege that Muhammad was allegedly the Messenger of God in a manner in which none of the alleged sayings of Muhammad allegedly allege?

I think you lost me a little with all the alleging!

The trinity is a big point of difference the JWs have with Christianity and that presumably extends to rejecting the doctrine of Divinity of Christ. I'm sure you are very familiar with all the arguments and nuances around the Divinity of Christ.

There's good scholarship around the authorship of all four gospels that plausibly suggests none of the authors were eye witnesses to the events they witnessed. They are most likely second or third generation Christians.

Regardless of authorship there are apparently conflicting statements in the Gospels regards Christ's Divinity..

The logos concerning John 1:1, John1:3 and John 1:14 is perhaps the strongest argument for the Divinity of Christ. There are many other verses the Christians use.

Some of the verses that indicate that Jesus and God are not one and the same are:

1 John 4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us."

Mark 13:32
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

1 KIng 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

So scripture seems to imply that Jesus can not possibly be God incarnate.

Perhaps it would be better to think of Jesus as being a perfect image or reflection of Gods' divine attributes?

Colossians 1:15 in regards to Jesus
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature"

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

John 8:28
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

In this manner Moses also speaks as God

Deuteronomy 29:2-6

Muhammad was quite explicit in His rejection of the Divinity of Christ, the trinity and His Sonship.

I started a couple of threads recently to explore the different theologies between Islam and Christianity.

https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...hristianity-regarding-concepts-of-god.210197/

https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...hristianity-regarding-concepts-of-god.210197/

 

[Dawnofhope]

Your mammoth thread is not as long as a thread on another forum I used to post on entitled "Why Jesus is not a God." It has 32, 991 posts... It and it has been going since December 2009 and it is still going, with new posts added each day. Essentially it is a debate between a couple of Christians and a couple of Jews.

The Christians are definitely the odd one compared to Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Still we all have our beliefs that are just that...beliefs.