Was Muhammad The Greatest Moral Example?

[paarsurrey]

I'd agree that sometimes scripture has wisdom to offer the reader. But wisdom is NOT evidence. You often present a bit of scripture as if it's evidence. There is a time for wisdom and a time for evidence, but it's not good to try to make wisdom replace evidence.

What does one do with the evidence/proofs/experiments/experience? The end product is wisdom.
Regards

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Okay, so why isn't having sex with a 9 year old girl in the 7th century suited for a prophet?

It's not just the issue of whether he did it in the 7th Century. It's the fact that Muslims seem to believe that Muhammed's actions are an example of Muslim conduct in this day & age which is the problem. Further, Muslims believe he was in direct contact with Allah - the supreme moral authority in existence. A truly moral person would not have had sex with a child.

Only ignorant & backwards barbarians find it acceptable or 'necessary' these days.

Do you believe Muhammad fits the medical definition of a paedophile?

If you're asking whether he was sexually attracted to children? Impossible to say without being able to see his mind or a psychiatric profile; but possible considering he did have sex with one.

Do you really think all paedophiles should be killed?

I know you weren't asking me, but I'd say 'probably, yes'.

Why were the tribes that Muhammad fought more advanced?

In terms of ethics & morality? They had established rules of war which applied to all, even those who didn't believe as they believed - like Muhammed. Muhammed ignored those rules when it suited him and made up Quran verses to justify it. Further, his rules for how Muslims should allow non-Muslims to live in Muslim societies only apply to monotheists. Polytheists get short shrift. Actually polytheists get 'conversion' or 'death' as their choices.

And what offensive wars did Muhammad start?

The war between Muhammed and the Quraysh. He then launched a campaign aimed at conquering and forcibly Islamising the rest of Arabia. Accounts of what happened at Ta'if are a testament to his offensive military actions.

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

Because he is said to be the greatest moral example of all time and to be in direct contact with God. God would not allow such and neither would the most moral man alive. Ergo, he is neither a prophet or the most moral man alive. If we were just talking about some average 7th century Arab then no, it wouldn't be an issue, but since Muslims believe him to be the greatest guy who ever lived, then it is a massive problem. In other words, Mo should have known better.

I understand your point of view, from what I've read some Islamic scholars follow Muhammad on this, others don't, I guess Muhammad is partly responsible for those who do

 

[Shad]

Regarding his sex with Aisha, by the standards of the time it almost certainly wasn't immoral, should people do it today? If it affects the girls or boys life negatively then of course not

Moral relativism. If the environment and situation dictates anything can be considered moral or immoral.

Regarding destroying/knocking off the idols at the Ka'ba, without a doubt in my mind it was immoral. To what extent? I'm not sure, it would be quite strange that the Muslims ruled mekkah and were the majority but still performed the pilgrimage with idols around the ka'ba

Now we have the moral relativism again but you ignore context. Muslims ruled Mecca thus the environment and situation allowed for such an act to be moral. Idolatry is forbidden in God's house. The idols were in God's house.

 

[icehorse]

What does one do with the evidence/proofs/experiments/experience? The end product is wisdom.
Regards

I'd say that *sometimes* scripture has wise things to say, and sometimes the advise in scripture is NOT very good advice at all. So how do we know the difference? We know because our experience (evidence), has shown that some ideas are wise and some are not.

 

[Agnostic Religiophile]

@A Greased Scotsman

About half of Muslims follow Muhammad's conduct regarding intercourse with 9 year olds, the other half don't

I really don't agree that all paedophiles should be killed but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that

The conduct of war regarding Muslims only changed with prisoners (they generally couldn't be killed and couldn't be enslaved), not in battle. The opinion that allowing monotheists only to live in an Islamic state is legitimate traditionally was held by the Shafis and Hanbalis, whereas the Hanafis and Malikis said they could. Regarding authentic hadith, Muhammad didn't allow the taking of the jizya from polytheists on one occasion, on two occasions he did allow it.

All of Muhammad's wars were defensive I believe (although I'll admit some on a weak basis). Muhammad claimed to be a prophet then was persecuted so he self exiled to Medina, there the community was boycotted by the Meccans and the Muslims depended on caravan raids for their economic survival. This lead to the two sides engaging in a big battle at Badr. I blame the Meccans. And I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to but if you mean the siege at ta'if then the source for this is Ibn Hisham i.e not reliable

Again, another biased piece, I'm sorry but why can't people admit that regarding the taking of the jizya from polytheists, there was a clear difference of opinion and present the evidences. Is that hard to do?

Am I myself completely impartial? Of course not but I like to think I try to be objective

As an edit, I also think you missed what I meant by the medical definition of a paedophile. A pedophile is someone with a preference for prepubescent children. I don't think Muhammad fits that definition.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm just gonna throw this in and bail out of the thread real quick. In older times sex with younger ages was not frowned upon as it is now, ethics change over time.

I tire of this retarded argument. Acceptance of brutality doesn't make it magically less brutal. The norms of primitive cultures doesn't change how physical/sexual abuse impacts children.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Because he is said to be the greatest moral example of all time and to be in direct contact with God. God would not allow such and neither would the most moral man alive. Ergo, he is neither a prophet or the most moral man alive. If we were just talking about some average 7th century Arab then no, it wouldn't be an issue, but since Muslims believe him to be the greatest guy who ever lived, then it is a massive problem. In other words, Mo should have known better.

As a lady ;-) you see that as extra revolting society was revolting , no excuses man of God ? Yes does raise serious issue , exploiting of ladies still happens today you have fair grounds for concern .

 

[paarsurrey]

Was Muhammad The Greatest Moral Example?

What are the morals and how morals are related to natural instincts of man? A list of moral should be provided .
Will somebody reflect on it? Please
Regards

 

[Yerda]

Was Muhammad The Greatest Moral Example?

What are the morals and how morals are related to natural instincts of man? A list of moral should be provided .
Will somebody reflect on it? Please
Regards

We don't need to get academic. Would you agree that a great moral leader must show us how to live in peace and in dignity and in compassion with others?

 

[paarsurrey]

We don't need to get academic. Would you agree that a great moral leader must show us how to live in peace and in dignity and in compassion with others?

Why is one against the Academia? One should know that there are people here from the Academia who hold that the non-Academia are ignorant people. Do you know? Please
Regards

 

[icehorse]

Was Muhammad The Greatest Moral Example?

What are the morals and how morals are related to natural instincts of man? A list of moral should be provided .
Will somebody reflect on it? Please
Regards

Hi paarsurrey, Have you read the UN's "Universal Declaration on Human Rights"? (UDHR) Here's a link:

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

It's not a long document. For my money this is a good starting point. It's important to note that the world's most important Muslim leaders rejected this document and made a more Islam-friendly version called the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights. If you compare the two documents you'll see, for example, the UDHR allows for freedom of religion (apostasy), and the Cairo Declaration does not.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi paarsurrey, Have you read the UN's "Universal Declaration on Human Rights"? (UDHR) Here's a link:
http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
It's not a long document. For my money this is a good starting point. It's important to note that the world's most important Muslim leaders rejected this document and made a more Islam-friendly version called the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights. If you compare the two documents you'll see, for example, the UDHR allows for freedom of religion (apostasy), and the Cairo Declaration does not.

Quran allows freedom of religion.
Regards

 

[icehorse]

Quran allows freedom of religion.
Regards

Well the world's most powerful Muslim leaders think that apostasy is a crime. So we have your individual interpretation of Islam, but you're in disagreement with the leaders of the Muslim world. I wish the Muslim leaders thought the way you do paarsurrey!

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Quran allows freedom of religion.
Regards

You are simply wrong. Quran advocates slaying of polytheists and religiously decreed extortion upon non-Muslim monotheists living in Muslim lands (dhimmis) with threats of violence if they don't pay.

 

[matthew_/!/]

You are simply wrong. Quran advocates slaying of polytheists and religiously decreed extortion upon non-Muslim monotheists living in Muslim lands (dhimmis) with threats of violence if they don't pay.

An example of the extortion would be Zoroastrians. They were invaded during the Sassanian Period by the muslims and ended up having to pay tax to live in their own land.

 

[Augustus]

An example of the extortion would be Zoroastrians. They were invaded during the Sassanian Period by the muslims and ended up having to pay tax to live in their own land.

So did the people the Persians conquered

At least one medieval Muslim historian believed the word jizya was actually derived from the Persian language.

(Not got the source to hand but have posted it before)

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi paarsurrey, Have you read the UN's "Universal Declaration on Human Rights"? (UDHR) Here's a link:

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

It's not a long document. For my money this is a good starting point. It's important to note that the world's most important Muslim leaders rejected this document and made a more Islam-friendly version called the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights. If you compare the two documents you'll see, for example, the UDHR allows for freedom of religion (apostasy), and the Cairo Declaration does not.

Quran allows freedom of religion.
Regards

Well the world's most powerful Muslim leaders think that apostasy is a crime. So we have your individual interpretation of Islam, but you're in disagreement with the leaders of the Muslim world. I wish the Muslim leaders thought the way you do paarsurrey!

It is not my individual interpretation. It is very much in Quran, and very loud and clear and beyond doubt. There is a whole chapter in Quran on freedom of religion:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 109: Al-Kafirun

[109:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[109:2]Say, ‘O ye disbelievers!
[109:3]‘I worship not that which you worship;
[109:4]‘Nor worship you what I worship.
[109:5]‘And I am not going to worship that which you worship;
[109:6]‘Nor will you worship what I worship.
[109:7]‘For you your religion, and for me my religion.’
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=109

Regards

 

[matthew_/!/]

So did the people the Persians conquered

At least one medieval Muslim historian believed the word jizya was actually derived from the Persian language.

(Not got the source to hand but have posted it before)

True true but the pre-Islamic persians were accepting to other religions.

 

[icehorse]

Hey paarsurrey,

When I read the Quran I remember 109:7 - it's a very famous passage (although in my translation it's 109:6). Too bad so many Muslim leaders ignore it