Was Satan really an angel?

[Francine]

You're using scripture to try to prove the veracity of scripture, better to have some external source as verificiation.

I was simply making the point that the gospels do not consist of what was written alone, but oral tradition plus the behavior of those whose lives were transformed by the gospel.

 

[gnostic]

In what way are the gospels based on oral tradition?

Mark, Luke and Matthew lived around the time of Jesus' ministry and in the ministry of the apostles in the Acts. I can see that Luke and Matthew being based on Mark's gospel, but it would not mean they had based them on oral tradition.

Oral tradition is usually passed from generation to generation, but those gospels belonged to overlapping generations, so can't be explained as the result of oral tradition.

 

[Francine]

Mark, Luke and Matthew lived around the time of Jesus' ministry and in the ministry of the apostles in the Acts. I can see that Luke and Matthew being based on Mark's gospel, but it would not mean they had based them on oral tradition.

All the synoptic gospels are based on the Q document, which could be titled "The Sayings of Jesus", and the Q document was in turn based on what people remembered Jesus saying about twenty or thirty years prior.

 

[Greatest I am]

If the devil aka Satan aka Lucifer was an angel, where is this actually stated in the bible?

If Satan is the greatest sinner of all and Jesus tells us to love sinners and hate sin, does that mean we are to love Satan?

Job tells us that Satan is clearly following God's orders. God is always in control.
This makes Satan work more closely with God than all other angels. He works harder for God showing us evil so that we will see it's opposite good.

If all of God's works are perfect as scripture indicates then Satan must also be perfect. Is this why Jesus tells us to love sinners including Satan?

Regards
DL

 

[gnomon]

All the synoptic gospels are based on the Q document, which could be titled "The Sayings of Jesus", and the Q document was in turn based on what people remembered Jesus saying about twenty or thirty years prior.

Thus, rendering it to not be oral tradition.

 

[tomspug]

All the synoptic gospels are based on the Q document, which could be titled "The Sayings of Jesus", and the Q document was in turn based on what people remembered Jesus saying about twenty or thirty years prior.

Care to show us that "Q" exists? Q is totally theoretical. Why would they use Q anyways when the disciples were still ALIVE?

As far as Lucifer goes, considering that Isaiah correctly predicted the coming of Christ I'd say he's a pretty reliable source for revelation. Besides, if he's not an angel, what is he then? Below God and above men... sounds like an angel to me! And I didn't need 'oral tradition' to figure it out!

 

[tomspug]

If Satan is the greatest sinner of all and Jesus tells us to love sinners and hate sin, does that mean we are to love Satan?

Job tells us that Satan is clearly following God's orders. God is always in control.
This makes Satan work more closely with God than all other angels. He works harder for God showing us evil so that we will see it's opposite good.

If all of God's works are perfect as scripture indicates then Satan must also be perfect. Is this why Jesus tells us to love sinners including Satan?

Regards
DL

You know that Job was a PLAY, right? I don't think it's actually history.

 

[Francine]

You know that Job was a PLAY, right? I don't think it's actually history.

Next you'll be telling us the bible never said, "This above all: to thine own self be true,
and it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man."

 

[dingdongknockknock]

The bible does state that the devil was an angel. He wanted more power like god and he got kicked out of heaven. And job was not a play!!! Tonight when i get home i will tell u who wrote it and when, my bible says that in the front of the chapter

 

[Francine]

The bible does state that the devil was an angel.

It does? Perhaps you can enlighten us over on this thread:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/61180-satan-really-angel.html

 

[gnostic]

All the synoptic gospels are based on the Q document, which could be titled "The Sayings of Jesus", and the Q document was in turn based on what people remembered Jesus saying about twenty or thirty years prior.

Q gospel is only logical theory. The logic is sound, but we don't really know for certain if it is correct one. The closest thing to Q gospel is - if the gospel of Thomas was "early" than the gospel of Mark.

 

[gnostic]

You know that Job was a PLAY, right? I don't think it's actually history.

If it is real, then I wouldn't want to worship such god. Because if such god exist, then he seemed to have the worse attributes of man, egotistic and arrogant. The fact that he allow Job's children to be killed in order to test Job's faith, he would be tyrant of the tallest order. Added to that fact that he refused to answer Job's honest questions, also revealed that prefer man to remain ignorant and slave to his unpredictable and raptorous mood swings.

 

[kai]

i think he can whatever you want him to be i think he was a bogey man for priests to scare people.

 

[crystalonyx]

All the synoptic gospels are based on the Q document, which could be titled "The Sayings of Jesus", and the Q document was in turn based on what people remembered Jesus saying about twenty or thirty years prior.

Laughably absurd, since the gospels were written from 40 to 100 years after the death of the supposed Christ by unknown authors. The "quotes" of Jesus could not be genuine, since in many cases he was alone when making them(who heard them?).
That plus the many conflicts between the gospels, (Matthew and Luke being basically expansions from Mark rewritten with their own bias) and it becomes obvious these are just stories meant to teach lessons, and to create a real physcial Christ instead of just a spiritual one.

 

[millerrod]

This is interesting to me because I observe that Satan has been turned into nearly a god by a pervasive form of neo-Gnosticism combined with ideas from Zoroastrianism. The whole panoply of salvation becomes a cosmic game of Texas Hold'em between the big god and the little god, with the souls of human beings as chips.

:slap: where did you get all them big words. it just took me 10 min to look them all up

 

[millerrod]

Laughably absurd, since the gospels were written from 40 to 100 years after the death of the supposed Christ by unknown authors. The "quotes" of Jesus could not be genuine, since in many cases he was alone when making them(who heard them?).
That plus the many conflicts between the gospels, (Matthew and Luke being basically expansions from Mark rewritten with their own bias) and it becomes obvious these are just stories meant to teach lessons, and to create a real physcial Christ instead of just a spiritual one.

So i take it your not christian

 

[siege]

Laughably absurd, since the gospels were written from 40 to 100 years after the death of the supposed Christ by unknown authors. The "quotes" of Jesus could not be genuine, since in many cases he was alone when making them(who heard them?).
That plus the many conflicts between the gospels, (Matthew and Luke being basically expansions from Mark rewritten with their own bias) and it becomes obvious these are just stories meant to teach lessons, and to create a real physcial Christ instead of just a spiritual one.

Actually...the disciples remained in Jerusalem for twelve years after Jesus death, during which time they composed the Logia and the Didache from Aramaic notes taken by Matthew during Jesus' three year ministry. The apostles all had Matthew's logia before them when writing their own gospels. However, how much the logia influenced the writing of each varies. Each wrote from the perspective of who their gospel was meant to speak to...Matthew (Jewish perspective), Mark (Roman perspective), Luke (Greek perspective), John (to counter the teachings of the gnostics).

Peter was illiterate. The gospel of Mark is a record that Mark wrote based off Peter's words.

Jesus ascended in 32 AD, leaving about 68 years for the gospels to be written by eyewitnesses (disciples).

Portions of Mark's gospel were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls dating it to before 68 AD.

The Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians dates to 95 AD. It contains quotes from Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, Romans, 1Corinthians, Ephesians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter.

Nelson Glueck (former president of the Jewish Theological Seminary in Hebrew Union College of Cincinnati), who, being Jewish, has no bias to influence his opinion, said: “In my opinion, every book of the New Testament was written between the forties and eighties of the first century A.D.

Many manuscripts are in existence of the New Testament.
5308 Greek manuscripts
10,000 Latin manuscripts
2000 Ethiopian manuscripts
4101 Slavic manuscripts
2587 Arminian manuscripts
350 Syriac Pashetta manuscripts
...making over 24,000 manuscripts...

The manuscripts are very old, some date to 50-100 A.D. Some are nearly complete Greek manuscripts from the first 300 years (Codex Siantic, [‘Mt Sinai’], Codex Alexandrinus [Egypt], and Codex Vaticanus [Rome])

 

[Halcyon]

Portions of Mark's gospel were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls dating it to before 68 AD.

I don't believe this is true. What would Essenes want with Christian texts?

Sources please.

 

[siege]

I don't believe this is true. What would Essenes want with Christian texts?

Sources please.

Simply google "Gospel of Mark Dead Sea Scrolls" and you find many, many sources.

 

[logician]

Actually...the disciples remained in Jerusalem for twelve years after Jesus death, during which time they composed the Logia and the Didache from Aramaic notes taken by Matthew during Jesus' three year ministry. The apostles all had Matthew's logia before them when writing their own gospels. However, how much the logia influenced the writing of each varies. Each wrote from the perspective of who their gospel was meant to speak to...Matthew (Jewish perspective), Mark (Roman perspective), Luke (Greek perspective), John (to counter the teachings of the gnostics).

Peter was illiterate. The gospel of Mark is a record that Mark wrote based off Peter's words.

Jesus ascended in 32 AD, leaving about 68 years for the gospels to be written by eyewitnesses (disciples).

Portions of Mark's gospel were found with the Dead Sea Scrolls dating it to before 68 AD.

The Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians dates to 95 AD. It contains quotes from Matthew, Mark, Luke, Acts, Romans, 1Corinthians, Ephesians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter.

Nelson Glueck (former president of the Jewish Theological Seminary in Hebrew Union College of Cincinnati), who, being Jewish, has no bias to influence his opinion, said: “In my opinion, every book of the New Testament was written between the forties and eighties of the first century A.D.

Many manuscripts are in existence of the New Testament.
5308 Greek manuscripts
10,000 Latin manuscripts
2000 Ethiopian manuscripts
4101 Slavic manuscripts
2587 Arminian manuscripts
350 Syriac Pashetta manuscripts
...making over 24,000 manuscripts...

The manuscripts are very old, some date to 50-100 A.D. Some are nearly complete Greek manuscripts from the first 300 years (Codex Siantic, [‘Mt Sinai’], Codex Alexandrinus [Egypt], and Codex Vaticanus [Rome])

I assume you have historical records separate from scriptures themselves to back up these dubious statements.