Was St. Paul a liar and deceiver?

[Leonardo]

I hear and see these kinds of lies at many Petacost gatherings where many claim miraculous cures such as one being deaf and then being able to hear perfectly. Now I truely understand how those lies are motivated by scripture.

P. T. Barnum and Paul were right: "Never underestimate the gullibility of the public" :yes:

 

[Pegg]

Were there any early Christian communities in the first century that advocated an type of armed resistance?

The Rise of Christianity, by E. W. Barnes p133: “A careful review of all the information available goes to show that, until the time of Marcus Aurelius [Roman emperor from 161 to 180 C.E.], no Christian became a soldier; and no soldier, after becoming a Christian, remained in military service.”

On the Road to Civilization—A World History says of the early Christians: “Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. The Christians . . . felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor".

Encyclopedia of Religion and War states: “The earliest followers of Jesus rejected war and military service,” recognizing these practices as “incompatible with the love ethic of Jesus and the injunction to love one’s enemies...Christian writers prior to Constantine [Roman emperor 306-337 C.E.] unanimously condemned killing in war,”

History of Christianity: “They refused to take any active part in the civil administration or the military defence of the empire. . . . It was impossible that the Christians, without renouncing a more sacred duty, could assume the character of soldiers, of magistrates, or of princes.”

Treasury of the Christian World: “Origen [who lived in the second and third centuries of the Common Era] . . . remarks that ‘the Christian Church cannot engage in war against any nation. They have learned from their Leader that they are children of peace.’ In that period many Christians were martyred for refusing military service.”

Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (2nd century C.E.), The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids, Mich.; reprint of 1885 Edinburgh edition), edited by A. Roberts and J. Donaldson, Vol. I, p. 254.“We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,—our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage,—and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified.”

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

But the fact is that Jews and the rest of the world already have a high priest and a royal priesthood. Jesus Christ became the high priest when he entered the 'Most Holies' in heaven.
Hebrews chapters 7-10 are so important in understanding this. Paul relates a prophecy about the Messiah from the Pslams. It says:

I won't address this, mostly because it's basically a polemical debate between Christians and Jews, and I'm sure each would disagree with the other side.

Really, for Christians to put faith in the Messiah, they must put faith in the fact that this Messiah is acting as the High Priest...as a mediator between God and Man just as the Levitical Priesthood did. And as Paul explains in Vs 12-14, with a new coventor comes new laws because Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi or a son of Aaron... he is from the kingly line of the tribe of Judah and there are no set of instructions within the mosaic law for how a person from the tribe of Judah is to officiate as a priest..... so something new has been arranged.

and to hold onto the mosiac law would demonstrate a lack of faith in Jesus role as the Messiah and High Priest... "he pleads for us" and we are told to put faith in his words

I won't debate this point. However, this does bring up another question I have: since the ceremonies, holy days, rituals and the like from the Mosaic law have been done away with in your opinion, does this mean that Christians are not to have such things?

 

[Pegg]

I won't address this, mostly because it's basically a polemical debate between Christians and Jews, and I'm sure each would disagree with the other side.



I won't debate this point. However, this does bring up another question I have: since the ceremonies, holy days, rituals and the like from the Mosaic law have been done away with in your opinion, does this mean that Christians are not to have such things?

i think the scriptural view is that a christian can do whatever his conscience tells him to do. If a christian feels that setting one day a week aside to worship God is appropriate, then he should do that. If another christian feels setting 4 days a week aside to worship God, then he should do that.

If one christian feels there is certain food which is inappropriate to eat such as pork or shellfish, then he should not eat it. But if another feels that it is ok to eat, then he should be able to eat it without being judged.

The key is to live by conscience...“Be as free people, and yet holding your freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God.”—1 Pet. 2:16

Galatians 5:1 "For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery"


the 'yoke of slavery' is living by a set of rules and being governed by a priestly judicial system where punishment and retribution are ordered for failing to uphold every command. Rather, Christians were set free from such rules so that they could worship God in freedom, with their own hearts, as an individual who lives by their conscience.

 

[Shermana]

im glad you understand what Jesus really meant.

Perhaps if you had lived back then, the christain congregation could have learned a lot from you and they could have saved themselves all the trouble and persecution their stance led them to.

So yeah, about what I actually said:

You're basically saying Jesus lied because plenty of people who have wielded weapons in battle did not die by other weapons.

 

[Rise]

Sorry for the delay in responding, dyanaprajna. Time gets away from me sometimes.

Ephesians 2:8 vs Matthew 7:21-23

To let you know where I'm going with this:
You aren't actually quoting two passages that are contradictory. What you are doing is quoting parts of what both Jesus and Paul have taught, but not the wholeness of what they taught, which if taken in isolation might be mistaken as not in harmony if you assume that's all they ever said on the subject of salvation.
However, if we look at the fullness of their teachings we can find that they both expressed the same fullness of ideas about faith and salvation in unison.

To basically sum it up:
Jesus told you that it is necessary to believe and repent, then abide and obey - And Paul teaches the exact same thing.
Neither of them leave out any part of that.

The issue is, what are you to obey? The short answer is, as I will demonstrate, is to obey God directly as He leads you through Holy Spirit, putting your faith in God, which comes to you by believing what Jesus said.

Paul, when he talks of no longer needing to obey the law, speaks of the mosaic statutes, but never speaks of lawlessness in the sense of ignoring God.
Jesus is speaking of God's pure law, which is the command to love God and love others. To that end, the only commandment He gives us is to love God and love others, and then tells us how we can accomplish that.
Paul talks about how if one follows God's law by the Spirit, that there is no need to keep the mosaic statutes anymore because we're already doing what is lawful in God's sight.
The mosaic statutes were only designed to keep us away from sin, but if we are led by the Spirit directly then we won't sin.

　
　
First, let's expand Ephesians a bit to include verse 10:
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
　
From this we see:
-Salvation does not come by works.
-Salvation is a gift, not earned.
-Salvation comes through faith.
-We are still intended to do good works. But the good works prepared by God (that which is the will of the father), and we are called to walk them out.
　
　
Jesus has told us the same thing:
That salvation is a gift
That salvation comes by faith
And in Mathew 7 itself, we see Jesus saying that works alone are not going to gain you entrance.

　
Salvation comes as a gift, by faith:

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 5
24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 10
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
　
　

　
Paul also teaches that it is necessary to do the will of the Father, in the sense that actions of obediance and love follow one who has true faith:
"Works of faith" are that which flow out of your faith. They are not that which grants you salvation. But one who has true faith will manifest the works of faith just as one who abides in the Spirit will manifest the fruit of the Spirit.
This is also consistent with what Paul says in Ephesians 2 when he talks about how God has prepared good works for us that we should walk in them.
　

Hebrews 10
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised. 37 For,
"Yet a little while,
and the coming one will come and will not delay;
38 but my righteous one shall live by faith,
and if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him."
39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith and preserve their souls.
　
Hebrews 11
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
　
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
　
Romans 1:5
5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,
　
Romans 16:26
26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—
　
2 Thess. 1
11 So we keep on praying for you, asking our God to enable you to live a life worthy of his call. May he give you the power to accomplish all the good things your faith prompts you to do.
　
1 Thess. 1:3
3 remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
　
Galatians 5
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
　
　
Here in Romans, Paul links life with not merely faith, but faith that abides in the Spirit and sets themselves to the things of the Spirit, which results in submission to God's law and righteousness. To set your mind on the things of the Spirit is to do the will of the Spirit, thus doing the will of the Father, and this leads to life.
(This parallels Jesus's teaching in Matthew 7 and John 15 about the necessity of abiding in Him, His Spirit dwelling in us, as a necessity to produce righteous fruit)
　
Romans 6:
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
　
　
The other writers are in harmony with this:

1 john 2
28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 Peter 1:14
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,

Acts 5
32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
　
　

 

[Rise]

　
Now, let's expand Matthew 7 out a bit for context:

Ask, and It Will Be Given
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

The Golden Rule
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.

I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Build Your House on the Rock
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”


From this teaching we see:
-That we will be given what we ask for.
-That the way is narrow.
-The summation of the law is given as loving others as we love ourselves.
-The importance of bearing good fruit.
-But clearly entering the Kingdom of Heaven does not come by just any works.
-It comes by doing the will of the Father (which is the opposite of lawlessness).
-That Jesus's words, belief in them, and action taken on that belief, are the key to being saved from destruction.


So the real question is: What is the will of the Father?

John 6
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

That's pretty straitforward.
But we can expand on that by finding a parallel passage in John where Jesus expands on this teaching. From that we can identify more fully what God expects from us.

 

[Rise]

In these chapters of John, Jesus mentions the same things we see in matthew 7:
Asking and recieving, the narrow way as Jesus, the key commandment of loving God and others, and the importance of bearing good fruit, the importance of lawfulness/obedience in terms of doing God's will, and the fact that belief in Jesus's words are necessary for salvation.

Here we see Jesus describing what it looks like for someone who is not cast out, but who actually does the will of the Father.

John 13
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

John 14
14 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. 4 And you know the way to where I am going.” 5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
....
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

18 “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” 23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

25 “These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. 30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, 31 but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

John 15
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.


From this we see:
-Jesus is the way.
-We are commanded to love.
-Being clean comes by hearing the word of Christ.
-That by abiding in Christ we bear good fruit, and only by this can we bear good fruit.
-That we abide in Him, His Love, by being obediant to Him.
-That the will of the Father is that we believe, and abide in Christ, so that we will produce good fruit.

Looking at the parable of the vine, we see that those who abide in Christ bear the fruit of love and righteousness.
In Matthew 7 He talks about knowing them by their fruits, then He casts out those who never knew Him and were lawless. They never knew Him because they never abided in Him, and they were lawless because they never produced the fruit of righteousness that comes from abiding in Him.
(To "know" someone was also as a Hebrew idiom speaking of relational intimacy, on the level that only existed between a husband and wife. Jesus often likened our relationship to Him as to a bridegroom and bride).

The law, then, is not a means to righteousness, but an external manifestation of one's internal righteousness.

That is essentially true - Except it is Christ's righteousness expressed through us, not our own righteousness.
The other exception would be, that the law as Jesus defines it is the law of God being perfect love for others and God.

And we find the teachings of Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, and James are all in agreement on this.

The question then becomes, how does this internal transformation take place and allow us to walk in step with God's will?

Jesus speaks of it in John 15, and Romans 8 outlines it for us as well. It comes by a spiritual rebirth, and living by the leading of the Holy Spirit, so that you will walk in God's will instead of your own will, the will of others, or the will of satan.

To not do the will of God is rebellion and lawlessness.
Only the will of God in any situation is righteous.

Paul outlines for us in Galatians 5 that the fruit of the Spirit is always lawful, so there is no need for the mosaic statues if one always does what they are led to by the Spirit.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

In the same way, Jesus outlines for us in John 15 how the entirety of the law comes down to love, and obediance to that command to love, which comes only by abiding in Him through the Holy Spirit that he will give us.

 

[Shermana]

Jesus is speaking of a God's pure law, which is the command to love God and love others. To that end, the only commandment he gives us is to love God and love others, and then tells us how we can accomplish that.

Once again, Jesus merely says that all the commandments HANG on love of God and neighbor, he doesn't say those two replace the others. I am surprised how many people re-interpret what "hangs on" means to mean "Replaces". Rather, I shouldn't be surprised. To say that Jesus gives no other commandments is to ignore and snip out 99.99% of what Jesus actually teaches and commands throughout the Gospels, or to basically ignore everything except that verse.

Every single one of the commandments is either about Love of God or neighbor, that's all Jesus is saying. He is not by any means saying the Mosaic Law is undone. He is merely explaining them better.

And once again, 1 John 5:3 should end any argument on this subject quite nicely.

"The love of God is obedience to the commandments".

So the love of God is....just the commandment to love God and neighbor? I don't think so.

 

[Pegg]

Once again, Jesus merely says that all the commandments HANG on love of God and neighbor, he doesn't say those two replace the others. I am surprised how many people re-interpret what "hangs on" means to mean "Replaces". Rather, I shouldn't be surprised. To say that Jesus gives no other commandments is to ignore and snip out 99.99% of what Jesus actually teaches and commands throughout the Gospels, or to basically ignore everything except that verse.

Every single one of the commandments is either about Love of God or neighbor, that's all Jesus is saying. He is not by any means saying the Mosaic Law is undone. He is merely explaining them better.

do you agree that if the principle behind each of the mosaic laws is 'love' of God and of neighbor, then by actually loving God and neighbor a person can fulfill all of those laws?

 

[Shermana]

do you agree that if the principle behind each of the mosaic laws is 'love' of God and of neighbor, then by actually loving God and neighbor a person can fulfill all of those laws?

I agree that if one loves God and neighbor, they'll obey those commandments, every one of them. As 1 John 5:3 implies.

I agree that if one claims to love of God and neighbor and doesn't obey those commandments, they are full of wishful thinking.

 

[Rise]

Christ established a new covenant in His blood.

Mark 14
And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many

Matthew 26
for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Jeremiah 31
31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”


Nowhere will you find Christ tell us that it is necessary to obey the mosaic statutes as part of the mosaic covenant to have salvation under the new covenant Christ has established for us.





1 John does end this arguement if you actually look at all of 1 john and don't just take a single verse out of context:

1 john 2
28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1 John 3
23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them.

1 John 4
21And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.


That is what John is referring to when he says that we have to obey His commands.
He defines for us what His commands were.
You make an assumption that He is referring to the commands under the mosaic covenant, but there is nothing in the text of 1 John or the gospel of John that would support such a view.

Compare all this with John 15 that I posted already.
He commands us to love Him, obey Him, and abide in Him. These three things are actually all one in the same.
To do one is to do them all, because doing one requires doing all. You can't love the way he wants you to without abiding, and you can't abide without obeying his leading, and you will obey if you love Him.

1 John is only reinterating for us what we already see expressed in John 15, and this concept is the same one we see Paul express in Romans 8.





When you combine the Teaching of John 15 with 1 John's reiteration of it, and realize that Paul is describing the same thing in Romans 8, and that this all takes place as part of a new covenant, then the following scripture makes all the more sense to you:

2 Corinthians 3
5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

 

[Pegg]

I agree that if one loves God and neighbor, they'll obey those commandments, every one of them. As 1 John 5:3 implies.

I agree that if one claims to love of God and neighbor and doesn't obey those commandments, they are full of wishful thinking.

thats good, so now you know why its possible for a christian to fulfill the mosaic law without becoming an adherent to it.

the purpose of that law was to uphold love of neighbor and of God. If you live by the spirit of love for neighbor and love for God, you have fulfilled the mosaic law.

 

[Shermana]

thats good, so now you know why its possible for a christian to fulfill the mosaic law without becoming an adherent to it.

Ummm, did you seriously not understand what I said or are you deliberately distorting what I said to mean something that I clearly didn't mean, since I implied nothing less than full obedience and adherence to the Law.

the purpose of that law was to uphold love of neighbor and of God. If you live by the spirit of love for neighbor and love for God, you have fulfilled the mosaic law

You can't obey the Spirit of the Law without the written part of the Law. The spirit is what defines what the written is supposed to mean. That's what Jesus was all about, defining what exactly the Law entailed, not giving some vague replacement for it.

I can't tell if you really misunderstood what I meant or not.

Be back in a few hours.

 

[Pegg]

Ummm, did you seriously not understand what I said or are you deliberately distorting what I said to mean something that I clearly didn't mean, since I implied nothing less than full obedience and adherence to the Law.

if you understood that the purpose of the law was to uphold/promote love, then why can't you see that the law was a means to an end....it wasnt the end in itself.

You can't obey the Spirit of the Law without the written part of the Law.

the spirit of the law encompasses so much more then the mere 'written' part of it.

For example, 'You must not commit adultery' means you must not sleep with your fellow mans wife. So have you fulfilled the law by never sleeping with your fellow mans wife?
Not necessarily.

That law does not tell you that you cannot have a passion or fantasy or private desire for your fellow mans wife....it only says you must not sleep with her.
And that is why Jesus said "every man who looks lustfully at a woman has already committed adultery with her in his heart"

So to really comply with the mosiac law, a person needs to see that the written word does not fully express the 'spirit' behind it. In this case, the spirit of the adultery law is that a man cannot look at other woman with a passion or lust. Men need to look at woman as sisters and mothers...there should only be one woman a man can look at with passion and it is his own wife. Every other woman is not for him to even think of in such a way....and if men and woman only looked at their marriage mate in such a way, then there would be far more happier marriages and contented homes.

 

[Shermana]

f you understood that the purpose of the law was to uphold/promote love, then why can't you see that the law was a means to an end....it wasnt the end in itself.

Again, you are misconstruing what I said. The Law IS the means to Love, and without the Law, there is no means to that end.

the spirit of the law encompasses so much more then the mere 'written' part of it.

It encompasses how to interpret the Law correctly. What else does it entail?

For example, 'You must not commit adultery' means you must not sleep with your fellow mans wife. So have you fulfilled the law by never sleeping with your fellow mans wife?
Not necessarily.

I would fulfill that particular part of the Law.

That law does not tell you that you cannot have a passion or fantasy or private desire for your fellow mans wife....it only says you must not sleep with her.

That's where the anti-coveting commandment kicks in.

And that is why Jesus said "every man who looks lustfully at a woman has already committed adultery with her in his heart"

With that you're doing a fine job explaining my own point about how the Spirit of the Law explains the in between details of how to interpret it.

So to really comply with the mosiac law, a person needs to see that the written word does not fully express the 'spirit' behind it.

Which is why I said that the Spirit is how to fully explain it. It doesn't REPLACE any of it as you may want to try to imply. It simply fills in the gaps and in-betweens. Rather than voiding any of the Written Law.

In this case, the spirit of the adultery law is that a man cannot look at other woman with a passion or lust. Men need to look at woman as sisters and mothers...there should only be one woman a man can look at with passion and it is his own wife. Every other woman is not for him to even think of in such a way....and if men and woman only looked at their marriage mate in such a way, then there would be far more happier marriages and contented homes.

With that said, how does that differ from coveting exactly?

PS Monogamy for men is not really a commandment, and I'll be happy to defend that.

 

[Desert Snake]

Which is why I said that the Spirit is how to fully explain it. It doesn't REPLACE any of it as you may want to try to imply. It simply fills in the gaps and in-betweens. Rather than voiding any of the Written Law.

You have yet to explain why gentiles would be under the entire OT law, and the 'graft' theory sure isn't solid enough of an idea to support the concept. Given the fact that the NT explicitly denotes a different law for the pagans/converts, there has to be more to go on, otherwise we are still left with only certain Christian groups being under the entire OT law, not all of Christianity.

 

[Pegg]

With that you're doing a fine job explaining my own point about how the Spirit of the Law explains the in between details of how to interpret it.

Which is why I said that the Spirit is how to fully explain it. It doesn't REPLACE any of it as you may want to try to imply. It simply fills in the gaps and in-betweens. Rather than voiding any of the Written Law.



With that said, how does that differ from coveting exactly?

PS Monogamy for men is not really a commandment, and I'll be happy to defend that.

what is the 'spirit' of the law?

 

[Shermana]

Disciple:

]You have yet to explain why gentiles would be under the entire OT law, and the 'graft' theory sure isn't solid enough of an idea to support the concept.

Why is the Graft "theory" not solid exactly? You still have yet to explain why the scholars who doubt the authenticity of the Council of Jerusalem are wrong, and why anyone would be a Biblically-defined "Christian" who doesn't adapt to the Petrine/Jamesean system in the first place. We also don't know, if the Jerusalem council WAS authentic if they meant it as an introduction to the rest of the Law, as many claim, or a permanent detail.

Given the fact that the NT explicitly denotes a different law for the pagans/converts, there has to be more to go on, otherwise we are still left with only certain Christian groups being under the entire OT law, not all of Christianity.[/COLOR][/B]

[/QUOTE]

Given that the passages that "Explicitly denote a different Law" are in scholarly doubt, may be utterly mistranslated, and the issue of Paul's authenticity being in dispute in the first place, this brings us back to the initial OP:

Was St. Paul a liar and deceiver?

If so, there goes your "different law" concept.

Which brings us back round to square one all over again.

 

[Shermana]

Rise:

Nowhere will you find Christ tell us that it is necessary to obey the mosaic statutes as part of the mosaic covenant to have salvation under the new covenant Christ has established for us.

Christ explicitly says that the doers of Lawlessness will be rejected. To say he meant some other kind of "lawlessness" is highly unlikely since it entails that he was using language that the Jews would have no idea of what he was referring to. So you'd be incorrect there. With that said, he also says that those who "break and teach to break the least of the commandments will be called the least in the kingdom". It's frustrating how many times I've typed that one out only to see it ignored each time.

Also, the whole moral of the story of the Rich man and Lazarus was to say that those who ignore "Moses and the prophets" will burn in hell. Many erroneously assume it's talking about accepting Jesus, but that would be odd since the context is stemming from Luke 16:17 which says that none of the Law shall ever go void.

So Christ does in fact explicitly teach obedience to the Mosaic Law unless you twist the heck out of what he says out of its intended context.

Acts 21 explicitly says that James accosted Paul on a rumor that he was teaching the Jews to not obey the Law of Moses.