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Was St. Paul a liar and deceiver?

Shermana

Heretic
Shermana has admitted that he doesnt follow all of the mosaic laws either

Its like Jesus said at Matthew 23:4 They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger.

Oh really Pegg? Where did I admit this?

That's some nice false witness bearing of you.

Is this the kind of thing you resort to after I shoot down your arguments on other threads?

The closest thing I've said is that we don't know if the Torah today is not necessarily the same as before, or that I've sinned and not been 100% consistent and thus had need forrepentance, and with that said, going with my argument that our righteousness is weighed and measured.

So if you simply confused my admitting that I've slipped up before with not believing in following all the Mosaic Laws (That are possible to be followed without a functioning Temple and Priesthood), that's forgivable. But if you are saying that I don't believe in following certain Mosaic Laws, that's not forgivable.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
I think she means the 613 laws....I presume you don't follow all those, right

The only ones I don't follow are those that CANNOT be followed in this day and age like the Temple sacrifices. I've been over this with her many times and explained how this works, so I have to assume at this point that she is just dishonestly ignoring everything I've said about this and twisting and distorting what I actually said. In the words of the Queen, I am not amused.

Either that or she honestly misunderstood me when I admitted to slipping up and not being 100% consistent, in which I said I was wrong and that repentance was in order, which is not at all the same as saying that I "don't follow them all".
 
So repenting, according to the NT, replaced any punishment for not following the Laws you say are still in effect? How can that not be considered an update, and if accepting that portion why not the part that makes repenting a requirement, thought rather than an act is all that is required to put a person into sin?.

M't:5:28:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jas:2:8:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
ye do well:
Jas:2:9:
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,
and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas:2:10:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
Jas:2:11:
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.
 

Shermana

Heretic
So repenting, according to the NT, replaced any punishment for not following the Laws you say are still in effect? How can that not be considered an update, and if accepting that portion why not the part that makes repenting a requirement, thought rather than an act is all that is required to put a person into sin?.
David repented of sins and it saved his life. After being punished, and he was still punished terribly afterwards. I have indeed been punished (at least I believe it was directly related) when I have broken the commandments.
M't:5:28:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jas:2:8:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
ye do well:
Jas:2:9:
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,
and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas:2:10:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
Jas:2:11:
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[/quote]

"Guilty in all" should be read as "Guilty of all of it", the word PAnton means more or less "The whole thing". Likewise, a person who steals a candy bar is guilty of breaking "The whole US LAw", it does not mean he's also guilty of rape and murder because he stole.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Oh really Pegg? Where did I admit this?

That's some nice false witness bearing of you.

you said you dont wear frills on your clothing (you dont need a priesthood and temple to do this) , you also said you dont make the blood sacrifices as required by the mosaic law

obviously you are not following all that is required by that covenant.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
At least he is trying to be honest according to his interpretation,

its not very honest to continually promote a strict adherence to the mosaic law when he also admits that some parts of it cannot be practiced.

So whats the point of continually telling others that unless they follow the mosaic law, they are not righteous and will be 'called least'

its a tired old record i think.
 
Something I've mentioned in passing in several threads, but never really explored in detail, is some statements Paul makes in his letters to lying and using deception to gain converts. I'll post these here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2 Corinthians 12:16
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

This is the 3rd visit so how did the other two go, was deception not used to open the door in the verse below, a practice done ones as far as the Bible recorded it.

Covering the events of the first two visits would need to be done to clarify what that actually means.
Ac:17:23:
For as I passed by,
and beheld your devotions,
I found an altar with this inscription,
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship,
him declare I unto you.
Ac:17:24:
God that made the world and all things therein,
seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth,
dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 9:19-22
For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.

How is being someone that the other can relate to being dishonest, especially when it would have been the Spirit choosing to deliver the message inn that style?

Also, look at the three narratives of his conversion experience in Acts 9:3-7, Acts 22:6-10, and Acts 26:12-20. There are contradictions in these three narratives. Even the great western saint Jerome said of Paul:
The voice heard by the men could have been the opening sentence and the rest was private for Saul alone. The light was seen by some but not by others there, perhaps the men that fell down also did not see the light

Ac:9:3:
And as he journeyed,
he came near Damascus:
and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Ac:9:7:
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless,
hearing a voice,
but seeing no man.

Ac:22:9:
And they that were with me saw indeed the light,
and were afraid;
but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Ac:26:13:
At midday,
O king,
I saw in the way a light from heaven, a
bove the brightness of the sun,
shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
Ac:26:14:
And when we were all fallen to the earth,
I heard a voice speaking unto me,
and saying in the Hebrew tongue,
Saul,
Saul,
why persecutest thou me?
it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


So, how can we trust one who admits to using deceit, and not only that, but even those who followed his words and teachings admitted he did so? Can we really trust the letters of Paul to support any kind of spirituality if this is the case? And not only that, but later church fathers followed his lead, in finding great use for deception and lying, as long as they gained things for their god:
Someone who admits to deciet is being honest, the one who doesn't own up is the one not to be trusted.

Care to expand on the other deception and lies, not that I disagree, after all it is in prophecy about the Roman Church.

Da:8:12:
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,
and it cast down the truth to the ground;
and it practised,
and prospered.

So, in Clements opinion, even if something is true, if it contradicts their faith, it's not to be regarded as true.
Confessing a deception is telling the truth is it not?

Even the great reformer Martin Luther said:
Is this the faith that was inspired by Paul? One of deceit and lies, in order to gain for their god? The Bible, in other places, and even in Paul's letters, warns against lying, using deceitful speech, and misleading others. What are we to make of all of this? Is this the kind of example we want to follow for spirituality? How about today's Christian leaders, are we to trust them? I'll let another quote from St. Jerome illustrate this point:
Paul's confession to the flock fulfilled this verse did it not?

M't:5:23:
Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar,
and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
M't:5:24:
Leave there thy gift before the altar,
and go thy way;
first be reconciled to thy brother,
and then come and offer thy gift.

The Bible says that "satan is the father of lies". Jesus even mentioned that it might be possible for the antichrist to deceive the apostles, just as they had been done by Paul. Is it possible that Paul was the one Jesus had in mind when he said that satan is the father of lies? What does this mean for Christianity, which is mostly built on the teachings of Paul, who (and this is for another thread), contradicted Jesus on many matters?
It means your premise is full of holes as Paul corrected his errors, Jews failing to update the diet changes is deception in practice so who is following Satan?
 
"Guilty in all" should be read as "Guilty of all of it", the word PAnton means more or less "The whole thing". Likewise, a person who steals a candy bar is guilty of breaking "The whole US LAw", it does not mean he's also guilty of rape and murder because he stole.
What it means if thinking about adultery puts a person in sin then thinking about murder is also enough to put a person into sin, thinking about stealing is enough to put a person into sin for that specific sin. You don't confess to murder when your sin is lust for a woman who is not your wife.
 
So whats the point of continually telling others that unless they follow the mosaic law, they are not righteous and will be 'called least'
Great in the new earth is living inside New Jerusalem as a Priest or King to those living outside the walls, such as those in Isa:65, they are the 'least' in the Kingdom of God.
 
David repented of sins and it saved his life. After being punished, and he was still punished terribly afterwards. I have indeed been punished (at least I believe it was directly related) when I have broken the commandments.
Modified by what Scripture from being a death sentence? The prayer in De:4:30 was not for being spared the scattering in that chapter.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
its not very honest to continually promote a strict adherence to the mosaic law when he also admits that some parts of it cannot be practiced.

I simply don't argue that point...fact is, since I include the whole NT in my scripture, anything such as Torah True becomes my prerogative.
I actually believe that there are inherent contradictions when people try to pick & choose too much of the Bible, but hey, that's everyone is entitled to their opinion
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I simply don't argue that point...fact is, since I include the whole NT in my scripture, anything such as Torah True becomes my prerogative.
I actually believe that there are inherent contradictions when people try to pick & choose too much of the Bible, but hey, that's everyone is entitled to their opinion


the law sets forth a contract between God and Isreal, it is a 'binding' contract as history reveals....when Isreal failed to abide by the law, God withdrew from them and even punished them.

there is a reason why its called the 'law of Moses' and not the law of 'Jesus'

finally, if anyone thinks they need the mosaic law to worship God acceptable, they would be wrong. Abraham did not live under the mosaic law as did many other ancient people....and God accepted them. If he can accept those who did not live under mosaic law, then he can accept others too.
 

Shermana

Heretic
its not very honest to continually promote a strict adherence to the mosaic law when he also admits that some parts of it cannot be practiced.

So whats the point of continually telling others that unless they follow the mosaic law, they are not righteous and will be 'called least'

its a tired old record i think.

What's dishonest is that you completely ignored what I said about how not even the Bablyonian exiles could obey the Temple sacrifices and that Saul was punished for making an unauthorized sacrifice.

You're quickly getting on my bad side Pegg.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
What's dishonest is that you completely ignored what I said about how not even the Bablyonian exiles could obey the Temple sacrifices and that Saul was punished for making an unauthorized sacrifice.

You're quickly getting on my bad side Pegg.


and you ignore the point that Abraham, Noah, Abel, Job and others did not live under the mosiac law.

tell me how they were acceptable to God when they didnt have the help of the mosaic law?
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
the law sets forth a contract between God and Isreal, it is a 'binding' contract as history reveals....when Isreal failed to abide by the law, God withdrew from them and even punished them.

there is a reason why its called the 'law of Moses' and not the law of 'Jesus'

finally, if anyone thinks they need the mosaic law to worship God acceptable, they would be wrong. Abraham did not live under the mosaic law as did many other ancient people....and God accepted them. If he can accept those who did not live under mosaic law, then he can accept others too.

Right, I know that, that's why it's better to utilize the entire NT for scripture, then it doesn't infer a law that has to be followed. Trust me, if you want to argue with people who are selecting text based on pre-existing belief, you won't win many arguments

cheers
 
tell me how they were acceptable to God when they didnt have the help of the mosaic law?
They followed the law that the sons of God were under when they were created, sons of God go to the fiery lake, men still go to the same grave Adam did, at least intil the new earth starts.

Re:21:8:
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
and you ignore the point that Abraham, Noah, Abel, Job and others did not live under the mosiac law.

tell me how they were acceptable to God when they didnt have the help of the mosaic law?

Christians wouldn't live under those laws, and in fact the laws varied from Jewish community to community. The thing is, Shermana knows that, that's why he's arguing from the Nazarene perspective. A 'heathen' or 'pahgan' traditionally converting to Christianity was not expected to keep hardly any of the laws, only a few. Granted, at the time it was still probably enough to be a cultural 'sacrifice' of sorts, as the pagans were converting from actual different religions.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Right, I know that, that's why it's better to utilize the entire NT for scripture, then it doesn't infer a law that has to be followed. Trust me, if you want to argue with people who are selecting text based on pre-existing belief, you won't win many arguments

cheers

You have yet to explain why one must accept the entire NT to discuss doctrine and why one cannot discuss the validity of certain texts, especially those that are in critical dispute or have a history of dispute among the early church. You keep repeating this but when you are challenged you refuse to answer for this some reason.
 
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