• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Was St. Paul a liar and deceiver?

Shermana

Heretic
You must be completely unaware that the Ammonites and Moabites are a cursed race who are future enemies of Israel.

Were you under the idea that this was condoned and acceptable?

It's amazing the paucity of understanding of context there is among those who go by what they think are Paul's teachings.

However, with that said, listing the prohibitions in Leviticus 18 does not in any way indicate how the word "Fornication" applies to all those rulings, when you even agreed that it only applies to relations outside of marriage. In fact, all you did was kind of restate my own point for me, that all those prohibitions would be void and no longer apply according to you and Pegg's understanding of the word "Fornication" since it wouldn't apply to marriage. Otherwise, you must accept that the Mosaic Law still applies even without Paul explicitly listing those rulings.

But I do appreciate your utter fail of a rebuttal nonetheless.
 
Last edited:

Rise

Well-Known Member
let's look at the verses quoted and see what they really say:
 
2 corinthians 12
14 Here for the third time I am ready to come to you. And I will not be a burden, for I seek not what is yours but you. For children are not obligated to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 I will most gladly spend and be spent for your souls. If I love you more, am I to be loved less? 16 But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit. 17 Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you? 18 I urged Titus to go, and sent the brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not act in the same spirit? Did we not take the same steps?
 
No where is Paul saying he actually engaged in trickery upon the Corinthians. He is actually refuting any such notion by pointing out that he didn't even burden them financially when he stayed with them, taking nothing from them, desiring only to pour into them truth and love as children..
 
 
1 Corinthians 9
 
19 Even though I am a free man with no master, I have become a slave to all people to bring many to Christ. 20 When I was with the Jews, I lived like a Jew to bring the Jews to Christ. When I was with those who follow the Jewish law, I too lived under that law. Even though I am not subject to the law, I did this so I could bring to Christ those who are under the law. 21 When I am with the Gentiles who do not follow the Jewish law,[d] I too live apart from that law so I can bring them to Christ. But I do not ignore the law of God; I obey the law of Christ.
22 When I am with those who are weak, I share their weakness, for I want to bring the weak to Christ. Yes, I try to find common ground with everyone, doing everything I can to save some. 23 I do everything to spread the Good News and share in its blessings.
 
The New Living Translation paraphrases well the meaning of his words.
It's not deception to relate to people on common ground.
 
 
 
Romans 3
5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
 
You've taken verse 3:7 horrendously out of context if you think Paul is advocating deception.
He's actually saying the opposite - that those who would claim such a position are wrong.
 
The New Living Translation may help you see:
5 "But," some might say, "our sinfulness serves a good purpose, for it helps people see how righteous God is. Isn’t it unfair, then, for him to punish us?" (This is merely a human point of view.) 6 Of course not! If God were not entirely fair, how would he be qualified to judge the world? 7 "But," someone might still argue, "how can God condemn me as a sinner if my dishonesty highlights his truthfulness and brings him more glory?" 8 And some people even slander us by claiming that we say, "The more we sin, the better it is!" Those who say such things deserve to be condemned.
 
 
 
 
 
I can answer the big question that seems to be on all your minds.
Paul was motivated by love. Love for the lost, and love for those he brought to faith.
He expresses this love continually and profusely to the churches he writes too.
It is the love God has for his children, flowing through a man led and transformed by the Holy Spirit.
Paul spent the rest of his life taking abuse and sacrificing for the sake of love.
Imprisoned, stoned, beaten, afflicted.
Ultimately he gave his life for the gospel.
He lived improverished and paid his own way to share the gospel, not wanting to give anyone cause for claiming he was taking advantage of anyone in anyway.
 
 
As for the commentators centuries later, they have no bearing on biblical truth, so there's really no need to defend their comments even if some were taken out of context.
 
I was referring to all the OT laws, dietary, Sabbath, etc.
Well they seem to be missing from any reference to being part of 2nd Law in that reference and in this one below.

Ro:13:9:
For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;
and if there be any other commandment,
it is briefly comprehended in this saying,
namely,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Lu:10:27:
And he answering said,
Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul,
and with all thy strength,
and with all thy mind;
and thy neighbour as thyself.

M'r:12:29:
And Jesus answered him,
The first of all the commandments is,
Hear,
O Israel;
The Lord our God is one Lord:
M'r:12:30:
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul,
and with all thy mind,
and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
M'r:12:31:
And the second is like,
namely this,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
There is none other commandment greater than these.

Nothing in any of that that covers the 6oo Laws, if anything this removes the food part of those laws but not made official until Acts:10.

M't:15:10:
And he called the multitude,
and said unto them,
Hear,
and understand:
M't:15:11:
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man;
but that which cometh out of the mouth,
this defileth a man.
M't:15:12:
Then came his disciples,
and said unto him,
Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended,
after they heard this saying?
M't:15:13:
But he answered and said,
Every plant,
which my heavenly Father hath not planted,
shall be rooted up.
 

Shermana

Heretic
What seems to be missing, Stranger, is your awareness of this part:

and if there be any other commandment,
Nothing in any of that that covers the 6oo Laws, if anything this removes the food part of those laws but not made official until Acts:10.
Nothing of that passage discludes the 600 Laws. You seem to not understand how disproving a negative works.

With that said, how does disclude the food part? You could say it discludes the prohibition on sleeping with a menstruating woman while you're at it. Or marrying another man.

So I can go ahead and say that you are condoning gay marriage by your own logic. Heck, you could take that a LOT further than that.

Your logic also includes condoning cannibalism too. At least eating people who died naturally.
 
Last edited:
You must be completely unaware that the Ammonites and Moabites are a cursed race who are future enemies of Israel.
It doesn't say they were cursed for what went on with Lot and his daughters.

2Ki:24:2:
And the LORD sent against him bands of the Chaldees,
and bands of the Syrians,
and bands of the Moabites,
and bands of the children of Ammon,
and sent them against Judah to destroy it,
according to the word of the LORD,
which he spake by his servants the prophets.
2Ki:24:3:
Surely at the commandment of the LORD came this upon Judah,
to remove them out of his sight,
for the sins of Manasseh,
according to all that he did;

The same law from Adam to Moses covered all people living, 6 fingered giants as well as 5 fingered men and that changed only with the 10 Commandments.

Were you under the idea that this was condoned and acceptable?
I'm saying they weren't killed so it was 'tolerated', nor does it say he married them so I'm not pushing that aspect.

It's amazing the paucity of understanding of context there is among those who go by what they think are Paul's teachings.
Is that compared to people stuck in the past? (and unable to update things like Peter being 'somewhat nervous' when confronted about teaching and eating with Gentiles.

Ac:11:1:
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
Ac:11:2:
And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem,
they that were of the circumcision contended with him,
Ac:11:3:
Saying,
Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised,
and didst eat with them.
Ac:11:4:
But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning,
and expounded it by order unto them,
saying,

This verse is the end of the passage.

Ac:11:18:
When they heard these things,
they held their peace,
and glorified God,
saying,
Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

However, with that said, listing the prohibitions in Leviticus 18 does not in any way indicate how the word "Fornication" applies to all those rulings, when you even agreed that it only applies to relations outside of marriage. In fact, all you did was kind of restate my own point for me, that all those prohibitions would be void and no longer apply according to you and Pegg's understanding of the word "Fornication" since it wouldn't apply to marriage. Otherwise, you must accept that the Mosaic Law still applies even without Paul explicitly listing those rulings.
I'm not saying the laws were not moral but NT law say thinking about adultery (fornication). The laws were there for the events leading up to the cross and Jesus obeyed all of them. Do you (wrongfully) assume that Gentile automatically do all those things or that they didn't know to wash their hands without the input from Jews?

But I do appreciate your utter fail of a rebuttal nonetheless.
Have you ever tried to lock your impulse to do replies like the one this part is a reply to? If you do have a reply to the verses or a link if that suits you but at least post the portion you see as being the relevant part to a reply to the Acts:11 verses. Post whatever you want about the law in the days prior to the stone tablets being made into the new law.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Shermana

Heretic
It doesn't say they were cursed for what went on with Lot and his daughters.
Regardless, they are enemies of Israel.

By your logic you are stating that this behavior was condoned and acceptable.

Are you not?

If you're not, then bye bye point.

2Ki:24:2:
And the LORD sent against him bands of the Chaldees,
and bands of the Syrians,
and bands of the Moabites,
and bands of the children of Ammon,
and sent them against Judah to destroy it,
according to the word of the LORD,
which he spake by his servants the prophets.
2Ki:24:3:
Surely at the commandment of the LORD came this upon Judah,
to remove them out of his sight,
for the sins of Manasseh,
according to all that he did;
That's talking about something completely different. Again, a great demonstration of your understanding of context.

The same law from Adam to Moses covered all people living, 6 fingered giants as well as 5 fingered men and that changed only with the 10 Commandments.
So what were the "Statutes, judgments, and ordinances" that Abraham obeyed, and why did Noah know which animals were clean and unclean?


I'm saying they weren't killed so it was 'tolerated', nor does it say he married them so I'm not pushing that aspect.
Right. You're ignoring that aspect.

You haven't actually CONDEMNED what Lot's daughters did to him while he was drunk. So you're saying it's tolerated.

Thus, you're saying that marrying your sisters is tolerated.

Is that compared to people stuck in the past? (and unable to update things like Peter being 'somewhat nervous' when confronted about teaching and eating with Gentiles.
Peter was nervous about eating with gentiles because Jews were apparently forbidden from eating with gentiles regardless what they ate, perhaps due to Oral Torah.



This verse is the end of the passage.

Ac:11:18:
When they heard these things,
they held their peace,
and glorified God,
saying,
Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Totally irrelevant.


I'm not saying the laws were not moral but NT law say thinking about adultery (fornication).
Adultery and fornication are not the same thing. Adultery only applies to fornication with a married woman.

The laws were there for the events leading up to the cross and Jesus obeyed all of them. Do you (wrongfully) assume that Gentile automatically do all those things or that they didn't know to wash their hands without the input from Jews?
Didn't I already explain to you that the handwashing thing was an example of the Unscriptural rulings of the Pharisees that Jesus opposed because it wasn't in the actual Law?

With that said, there is absolutely nothing in the scripture which remotely indicates that the Laws were only in place "until the Cross".

And from that, you'll have to take the position that James (brother of Jesus) and the Jeruaslem Church were outright mistaken in their accusation of Paul in Acts 21. (And again, verse 25 is most likely an interpolation to match the likely edits in Acts 15).

Would you like to 1x1 on Acts 21 as well?


Why do you always assume the first post is also the last one? I think your ego is typing for you in a lot of instances in some of your replies. Two posters you mentioned (as a warning) not to get on your 'bad side', that might be the only side you actually have and the good side that you see is really an illusion.
Pegg got on my bad side for outright distorting what I said, ignoring my counter arguments and acting as if I never rebutted her points. I appreciate your total insult. Many people do get on my bad side when they resort to shady non-arguments, insults, dismissals without actually rebutting, refusing to back their claims with sources, insisting that their views are right without backing them, making personal comments, etc. But I'm sure I could get quite a few posters to tell you that I have a good side to. It's just that my bad side is reserved for intellectually dishonest people, and there's no dearth of them. No dearth at all.

Have you ever tried to lock your impulse to do replies like the one this part is a reply to? If you do have a reply to the verses or a link if that suits you but at least post the portion you see as being the relevant part to a reply to the Acts:11 verses. Post whatever you want about the law in the days prior to the stone tablets being made into the new law
.

I've already responded to your total distortion of Acts 10, with many links and sources, and you simply called them in error and wrong. You also don't seem to understand the concept of disagreeing on how to interpret a verse, you're under the idea that you can read anything you want into it.

With that said, I don't see what verse I'd have to post to disprove your total distortion of Acts 11. It's like asking me to post a verse that debunks a view that one can't dance the hokey pokey on Tuesday nights. You obviously have no clue what disproving a negative means. All I can do is tell you that you're reading something into the text that's not there. You might as well read into the text that the sky is polka dot pink and ask me to get a verse to disprove that.
 
Last edited:
What seems to be missing, Stranger, is your awareness of this part:

Nothing of that passage discludes the 600 Laws. You seem to not understand how disproving a negative works.
So which of the previous points is from the 600 laws. Same in this reference, show where it comes from the 600 laws.

M't:19:17:
And he said unto him,
Why callest thou me good?
there is none good but one,
that is,
God:
but if thou wilt enter into life,
keep the commandments.
M't:19:18:
He saith unto him,
Which?
Jesus said,
Thou shalt do no murder,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
M't:19:19:
Honour thy father and thy mother:
and,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

With that said, how does disclude the food part? You could say it discludes the prohibition on sleeping with a menstruating woman while you're at it. Or marrying another man.
You mean wife right, It isn't like all homes had running water so you could shower after. You just know somebody showed up in the morning with a reddish tinge to their mustache.

So I can go ahead and say that you are condoning gay marriage by your own logic. Heck, you could take that a LOT further than that.
Gay marriage condems itself to the extinction of the partners because there is no procreation involved.
Your logic also includes condoning cannibalism too. At least eating people who died naturally.
You should be made to provide a verse or a link to an article that has a verse that supports your words, otherwise you end up being just another troll on the web. Where are men listed in the verse?

Ac:11:6:
Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes,
I considered,
and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth,
and wild beasts,
and creeping things,
and fowls of the air.
 

Shermana

Heretic
The same episode is described a little differently in Mark 10:19.

As I've said before, note that DO NOT STEAL and DO NOT DEFRAUD are listed as separate commandments.

Where is 'Do not defraud"?

In the 600 of course.

New International Version (©1984)
You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'"

And don't bother saying that "do not defraud" is covered by "Do not steal", because

a) Why would Jesus mention both of them?

and

b) You could technically include all of the commandments under the 10.

Also, in case you're thinking that Jesus discluded Sabbath too, don't forget that Jesus warned his disciples to pray that they don't have to run away in the Winter or on the Sabbath day. Obviously not for the same reason, since finding Shelter on a single Sabbath would be far easier than in the whole Winter. And the female disciples obeyed Sabbath "As commanded" even after the events of the cross.

With that said, there's still the issue of James's accusation to Paul in Acts 21 (and verse 25 being a likely later interpolation along with the Jerusalem Council episode according to many top scholars). Your position would basically have to be that James was in total error.
 
Last edited:

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Look at it objectively, not through the lens of your faith, which can cloud logical judgement and good reason. Without faith that Paul was divinely inspired, which can only lead to circular reasoning, you can see what was really going on. I think this is one of the main reasons why Paul told his followers to reject knowledge and wisdom that did not agree with faith, even if it was true.

Hi dyanaprajna2011, there is no circular reasoning if one's mind has been opened to see what Moses wrote. Here are a few of Yeshua's statements that apply to your 30 years of not having your mind opened to what was written:

Luk 16:31
(31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luk 24:25-27
(25) Then he said unto them,O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
(26) Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
(27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44-46
(44) And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
(45) Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
(46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Wouldn't you want to "see" what Moses wrote? Paul saw it and BELIEVED, he was not foolish. KB
 

Shermana

Heretic
You mean wife right, It isn't like all homes had running water so you could shower after. You just know somebody showed up in the morning with a reddish tinge to their mustache.
I fail to see how this in any way rebuts what I said. Are you saying that sleeping with a menstruating woman who is married to you is acceptable now?

You also avoided my point that your logic means you can now marry your sister. You merely brought up Lot's daughters, and if anything, you seem to have been condoning such behavior as if it were allowed.

I'll be happy to keep repeating and bringing that up for you.

Gay marriage condems itself to the extinction of the partners because there is no procreation involved.
What does that have to do with the Mosaic Law? Talk about a desparate dodge. Besides, gays can still procreate. By your logic, this would mean that not only is gay marriage allowable, but they can simply go procreate with women they also marry (after all, not all of them are exclusively gay by any stretch).

Also by this logic, couples who use protection and never have children, or infertile couples, should not marry.

Thanks for playing!

You should be made to provide a verse or a link to an article that has a verse that supports your words, otherwise you end up being just another troll on the web. Where are men listed in the verse?
I don't think you understand, accuse me of being a troll all you want, you're asking me to disprove a negative. Like I said, you might ask me to disprove a claim that the Bible says the Sky is polka dot pink. The fact is that you're reading something into the text that's not there. Besides, the text itself says that the vision was only about letting gentiles into the church.



Ac:11:6:
Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes,
I considered,
and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth,
and wild beasts,
and creeping things,
and fowls of the air.
If I remember right, you completely dodged when I asked you where lobsters and shellfish are included there since you wanted to limit it to those 4 "food groups" anyway.

So are you saying shellfish is at least still forbidden? How about eel and swordfish?
 
Last edited:
Regardless, they are enemies of Israel.
At least get it right, the 12 Tribes turned out to be an enemy to God, that is what the exile into Neb's Babylon was all about.
By your logic you are stating that this behavior was condoned and acceptable.
Are you not?
If you're not, then bye bye point.
It certainlt happened before the flood and after sisters and brothers would have been getting married and at least one wife was a 6 fingered woman.
That's talking about something completely different. Again, a great demonstration of your understanding of context.
None the less that is when they were punished and the reason given is quite different from what you said it was, Where is your reference because the verses below put your whole proposal at risk of being false (at the very least).

De:2:9:
And the LORD said unto me,
Distress not the Moabites,
neither contend with them in battle:
for I will not give thee of their land for a possession;
because I have given Ar unto the children of Lot for a possession.

De:2:19:
And when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon,
distress them not,
nor meddle with them:
for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon any possession;
because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession.

So what were the "Statutes, judgments, and ordinances" that Abraham obeyed, and why did Noah know which animals were clean and unclean?
Since God brought them to the Ark (same as for Adam to do the naming) I guess the head count would solve which was which.

Ge:2:19:
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field,
and every fowl of the air;
and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them:
and whatsoever Adam called every living creature,
that was the name thereof.

Right. You're ignoring that aspect.
No, as it doesn't say they went on to have many children and the fact they had to get him drunk show it was not promoted as being 'proper with God'.

You haven't actually CONDEMNED what Lot's daughters did to him while he was drunk. So you're saying it's tolerated.
Were they stoned to death for it> Exile was Cain's punishment, I don't recall any updates to that until the stoning to death became the 'solution' even if they fully expected the ones being killed to also be resurrected later.

Thus, you're saying that marrying your sisters is tolerated.
Are you saying it never happened during the time that 8 people repopulated the world?

Peter was nervous about eating with gentiles because Jews were apparently forbidden from eating with gentiles regardless what they ate, perhaps due to Oral Torah.
And teaching them, the ones at that meeting clued in and accepted it, obviously not the same crowd that murdered Stephen.
Totally irrelevant.
The end of the passage is often the best part, you seem to have trouble referencing the whole passage.

Adultery and fornication are not the same thing. Adultery only applies to fornication with a married woman.
Adultery is sex outside of marriage, fornication is an act you can do with your wife and no punishment is warrented.

M't:5:32:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever shall put away his wife,
saving for the cause of fornication,
causeth her to commit adultery:
and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Didn't I already explain to you that the handwashing thing was an example of the Unscriptural rulings of the Pharisees that Jesus opposed because it wasn't in the actual Law?
Do you really want to cover all the laws that mention washing clothes as well as parts of the body)

With that said, there is absolutely nothing in the scripture which remotely indicates that the Laws were only in place "until the Cross".

Da:8:11:
Yea,
he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,
and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Da:9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

After the cross any temple sacrifice was part of this verse, again the Jews failed to update the changes made.

Isa:66:3:
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man;
he that sacrificeth a lamb,
as if he cut off a dog's neck;
he that offereth an oblation,
as if he offered swine's blood;
he that burneth incense,
as if he blessed an idol.
Yea,
they have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Isa:1:11:
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me?
saith the LORD:
I am full of the burnt offerings of rams,
and the fat of fed beasts;
and I delight not in the blood of bullocks,
or of lambs,
or of he goats.

Isa:1:14:
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth:
they are a trouble unto me;
I am weary to bear them.
Isa:1:15:
And when ye spread forth your hands,
I will hide mine eyes from you:
yea,
when ye make many prayers,
I will not hear:
your hands are full of blood.
Isa:1:16:
Wash you,
make you clean;
put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes;
cease to do evil;

And from that, you'll have to take the position that James (brother of Jesus) and the Jeruaslem Church were outright mistaken in their accusation of Paul in Acts 21. (And again, verse 25 is most likely an interpolation to match the likely edits in Acts 15).
You mean James brother of John.

M't:17:1:
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter,
James,
and John his brother,
and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

M'r:5:37:
And he suffered no man to follow him,
save Peter,
and James,
and John the brother of James.

Would you like to 1x1 on Acts 21 as well?
You haven't fulfilled your first thread to do just that about some reference. You a blowhard or what?

Pegg got on my bad side for outright distorting what I said, ignoring my counter arguments and acting as if I never rebutted her points. I appreciate your total insult. Many people do get on my bad side when they resort to shady non-arguments, insults, dismissals without actually rebutting, refusing to back their claims with sources, insisting that their views are right without backing them, making personal comments, etc. But I'm sure I could get quite a few posters to tell you that I have a good side to. It's just that my bad side is reserved for intellectually dishonest people, and there's no dearth of them. No dearth at all.
I assume that is a shortened list, basically anybody who has a different POV. Was she insulting you, I can do it quite deliberately but it serves no real purpose other that to let you vent as once the inner anger has resided you would be good for a few intelligent posts. There are ways to let all that slide off into the muck where it belongs without taking you into it to some extent. Not a real big deal but you repeat what others have said umpteenth time, try something original or better yet park it.
.
I've already responded to your total distortion of Acts 10, with many links and sources, and you simply called them in error and wrong. You also don't seem to understand the concept of disagreeing on how to interpret a verse, you're under the idea that you can read anything you want into it.
No, each reference has some verse that support it, you call them irreverent when you reply is that part. Those were just a few of what you called 'many errors' you got a different batch.

With that said, I don't see what verse I'd have to post to disprove your total distortion of Acts 11. It's like asking me to post a verse that debunks a view that one can't dance the hokey pokey on Tuesday nights. You obviously have no clue what disproving a negative means. All I can do is tell you that you're reading something into the text that's not there. You might as well read into the text that the sky is polka dot pink and ask me to get a verse to disprove that.
Peter was the one rehearsing what he was going to tell the other Apostles. The man's place he went to already knew some things about the one true God so the Gentiles would the brand new 'clients' would they not.
Show me some actual verses where they declined to eat the food on the blanket, that would certainly convince me, course I also know you will never find one.

You missed replying to the one that says nothing that a man eats can defile him btw.
 
The same episode is described a little differently in Mark 10:19.

As I've said before, note that DO NOT STEAL and DO NOT DEFRAUD are listed as separate commandments.

Where is 'Do not defraud"?

In the 600 of course.

New International Version (©1984)
You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'"

And don't bother saying that "do not defraud" is covered by "Do not steal", because

a) Why would Jesus mention both of them?

and

b) You could technically include all of the commandments under the 10.

Also, in case you're thinking that Jesus discluded Sabbath too, don't forget that Jesus warned his disciples to pray that they don't have to run away in the Winter or on the Sabbath day. Obviously not for the same reason, since finding Shelter on a single Sabbath would be far easier than in the whole Winter. And the female disciples obeyed Sabbath "As commanded" even after the events of the cross.
You are making this way too easy. Defraud, read and weep.

Ex:20:16:
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Ex:20:17:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house,
thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife,
nor his manservant,
nor his maidservant,
nor his ox,
nor his ***,
nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

With that said, there's still the issue of James's accusation to Paul in Acts 21 (and verse 25 being a likely later interpolation along with the Jerusalem Council episode according to many top scholars). Your position would basically have to be that James was in total error.
If you were looking for a verse that trashes the 600 laws you passed it without seeing it.

Ac:21:20:
And when they heard it,
they glorified the Lord,
and said unto him,
Thou seest,
brother,
how many thousands of Jews there are which believe;
and they are all zealous of the law:
Ac:21:21:
And they are informed of thee,
that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses,
saying that they ought not to circumcise their children,
neither to walk after the customs.
 

Shermana

Heretic
At least get it right, the 12 Tribes turned out to be an enemy to God, that is what the exile into Neb's Babylon was all about.
That's not even close to discussing the same subject. You're so off topic it's hilarious.

It certainlt happened before the flood and after sisters and brothers would have been getting married and at least one wife was a 6 fingered woman.
How does that in any way address what I actually said? You're still condoning the marriage of brothers and sisters.

None the less that is when they were punished and the reason given is quite different from what you said it was, Where is your reference because the verses below put your whole proposal at risk of being false (at the very least).
What reason did I give exactly? We have no idea if brothers and sisters were marrying before the Flood. Even the story of Adam and Eve is up to dispute. What reference are you looking for, what did I say that you're looking for a reference? Why would my proposal be at risk?

You're still nonetheless dodging and diving from the fact that your theology allows the marriage of brother and sister.

De:2:9:
And the LORD said unto me,
Distress not the Moabites,
neither contend with them in battle:
for I will not give thee of their land for a possession;
because I have given Ar unto the children of Lot for a possession.
Relevance? They still go to battle.
De:2:19:
And when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon,
distress them not,
nor meddle with them:
for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon any possession;
because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession.
Relevance? They still go to battle.
Since God brought them to the Ark (same as for Adam to do the naming) I guess the head count would solve which was which.
Relevance?



No, as it doesn't say they went on to have many children and the fact they had to get him drunk show it was not promoted as being 'proper with God'.
That in no way means it's not condoned by God according to your logic.


Were they stoned to death for it> Exile was Cain's punishment, I don't recall any updates to that until the stoning to death became the 'solution' even if they fully expected the ones being killed to also be resurrected later.
So then you ARE saying that it's condoned. Stop contradicting yourself!


Are you saying it never happened during the time that 8 people repopulated the world?
I'm guessing they only married cousins, which is 100% okay.

Even then, you're basically condoning brother-sister marriage by your logic.

And teaching them, the ones at that meeting clued in and accepted it, obviously not the same crowd that murdered Stephen.
Huh? Relevance? What are you referring to?
The end of the passage is often the best part, you seem to have trouble referencing the whole passage.
I don't understand why you think I have trouble referencing it, you simply keep ignoring and dismissing what I mention that it specifically says it only refers to the allowing of gentiles into the church and that you're reading into it something that's just not there.


Adultery is sex outside of marriage, fornication is an act you can do with your wife and no punishment is warrented.
Adultery is only sex with a married woman. Sorry.

Fornication would still allow sex between married siblings in your logic.

M't:5:32:
But I say unto you,
That whosoever shall put away his wife,
saving for the cause of fornication,
causeth her to commit adultery:
and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Yes, and?

Do you really want to cover all the laws that mention washing clothes as well as parts of the body)
Sure, go ahead, feel free to show where it shows that we are to wash our hands before eating.

Da:8:11:
Yea,
he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,
and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Relevance?

Da:9:27:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,
even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Relevance?

After the cross any temple sacrifice was part of this verse, again the Jews failed to update the changes made.
You're simply reading into it something that's not there.

Isa:66:3:
He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man;
he that sacrificeth a lamb,
as if he cut off a dog's neck;
he that offereth an oblation,
as if he offered swine's blood;
he that burneth incense,
as if he blessed an idol.
Yea,
they have chosen their own ways,
and their soul delighteth in their abominations.
Relevance? PS Keep reading Isaiah 66, something about those who eat swine's flesh will perish or something?

Isa:1:11:
To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me?
saith the LORD:
I am full of the burnt offerings of rams,
and the fat of fed beasts;
and I delight not in the blood of bullocks,
or of lambs,
or of he goats.
Ah, I love when people misquote this to get God to contradict Himself. It's talking about how they are making sacrifices without being good-hearted.

Isa:1:14:
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth:
they are a trouble unto me;
I am weary to bear them.
Isa:1:15:
And when ye spread forth your hands,
I will hide mine eyes from you:
yea,
when ye make many prayers,
I will not hear:
your hands are full of blood.
Isa:1:16:
Wash you,
make you clean;
put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes;
cease to do evil;
Again, you think God contradicted Himself. So you believe He was lying in the Torah then.

I love how badly context is lost on you types.

You mean James brother of John.
Huh? Says who? Oh I get it, you think the Zebedee brothers are the same as the James in Acts 21. That's cute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James,_son_of_Zebedee

You've really proven how bad your misinterpretation is in that you think James son of Zebedee is the same as James the Just. That's REALLY cute.

M't:17:1:
And after six days Jesus taketh Peter,
James,
and John his brother,
and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Feel free to provide a link that the brothers of Zebadee were the same as in Acts 21.

M'r:5:37:
And he suffered no man to follow him,
save Peter,
and James,
and John the brother of James.
Same thing.


You haven't fulfilled your first thread to do just that about some reference. You a blowhard or what?
What are you talking about? I already stated my case with 6 links, you simply said they were in error.

Call me a blowhard all you want. I'm not going to say what you are however.


I assume that is a shortened list, basically anybody who has a different POV. Was she insulting you, I can do it quite deliberately but it serves no real purpose other that to let you vent as once the inner anger has resided you would be good for a few intelligent posts. There are ways to let all that slide off into the muck where it belongs without taking you into it to some extent. Not a real big deal but you repeat what others have said umpteenth time, try something original or better yet park it.
You don't understand, she deliberately distorted what I said and failed to include my rebuttals, as you can clearly see in this post. I don't think it's possible for you to present any intelligent posts however.
.
No, each reference has some verse that support it, you call them irreverent when you reply is that part. Those were just a few of what you called 'many errors' you got a different batch.
Feel free to explain the relevance.


Peter was the one rehearsing what he was going to tell the other Apostles. The man's place he went to already knew some things about the one true God so the Gentiles would the brand new 'clients' would they not.
Show me some actual verses where they declined to eat the food on the blanket, that would certainly convince me, course I also know you will never find one.
You're simply asking me to disprove a negative whereas you refuse to acknowledge that you're reading into the text something that's not there, while refusing to accept that it explicitly states the purpose of the vision. I don't know how else to put it.
You missed replying to the one that says nothing that a man eats can defile him btw.

Liar. I posted a link that debunks this interpretation of that passage and Mark 7:14. YOU Missed it.

You missed replying to when I asked why Jesus calls it a parable. What does "defile" mean, and does that mean he can eat dung?

You also missed replying to the Cannibal comment.
 
Last edited:

Shermana

Heretic
You are making this way too easy. Defraud, read and weep.

Ex:20:16:
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Ex:20:17:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house,
thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife,
nor his manservant,
nor his maidservant,
nor his ox,
nor his ***,
nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Not only did you completely ignore what I said about how Jesus lists them as two separate commandments, you don't understand basic English either.

Defraud is not the same as covet.

Thank you for further demonstrating just how bad you are at this.

This has to be the absolutely most hilarious attempt I've seen to justify this concept. You actually think Defraud and covet are the same thing. That's seriously hilarious.

Thank you for demonstrating that you don't even know what "Covet" means.

The only thing I'm weeping for is that there are truly people this deluded and incompetent and ignorant as to the basic definitions of basic words that nonetheless require me to take the time to rebut.

If you were looking for a verse that trashes the 600 laws you passed it without seeing it.
Wow, FURTHER proof that you have no idea not only what you're talking about, but how to read basic English.

Ac:21:20:
And when they heard it,
they glorified the Lord,
and said unto him,
Thou seest,
brother,
how many thousands of Jews there are which believe;
and they are all zealous of the law:
Ac:21:21:
And they are informed of thee,
that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses,
saying that they ought not to circumcise their children,
neither to walk after the customs.
By all means, show how that is not supporting my view and instead saying it trashes them. You have absolutely no idea what's going on there.

Let me spell it out for you:

They are accusing Paul of teaching the Jewish Christians to break the Law of Moses according to a rumor they heard. Did you even read the next few verses? If you're trying to cherry pick, you did a terrible job, do you even understand the implications of what that would indicate even by your leaving it hanging at 21:21? Or do you not want to post 22-24. I already pointed out that verse 25 is likely an interpolation to complement the likely-interpolated Council of Jerusalem episode, and in another thread I provided scholarly claims that support this view.

This is beyond ridiculous.

AND HE DENIES IT! That's why he takes the Vow. He also denies it as his trial in Jerusalem.

You'd be saying that James is wrong otherwise.

I have no idea where you could possibly derive anything other than this.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you have some WACK, I mean WACK interpretations that are like extremely bad wet knots. That's why you have such difficulty getting links to back your views or defending the few times you do like when you quote the dubious Matthew Henry. How am I supposed to explain to you that Acts 21 is explicitly about the Jerusalem Church accusing Paul of teaching to break the Law of Moses based on rumors they had heard.

Total incompetence is the nicest way I could put it what could be the only way you could possibly get this. Would you like to add Acts 21 to our list of 1x1 topics?

So not only do you think coveting and defrauding are the same thing, you think Acts 21, the passage I use to support my own view, somehow supports YOUR view instead?

Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about.

I don't know else to put it without violating rule #1.
 
Last edited:
It seems, the basis of humanity is the same. Two soldiers have families, even though they may be enemies, and one might kill the other. Would one soldier take possession of the other's house, belongings, etc., and cast the other soldier's family out? This was happening, and is happening. Even within a nation, people are saying, that because our laws permit me to obey the letter, and then be obliged to answer for my perception, I have no choice, because others are doing similarly.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Mod Post

All posters are advised to keep Rules 1, 3, 8 and 11 in mind when posting. Violations following this Mod Post may result in administrative action.


1. Personal comments about Members and Staff
Personal attacks, and/or name-calling are strictly prohibited on the forums. Speaking or referring to a member in the third person, ie "calling them out" will also be considered a personal attack. Critique each other's ideas all you want, but under no circumstances personally attack each other or the staff.


3. Trolling and Bullying
We recognize three areas of unacceptable trolling:
1)Posts that are deliberately inflammatory in order to provoke a vehement response from other users. This includes both verbal statements and images. Images that are likely to cause offense based on religious objections (e.g. depictions of Muhammad or Baha'u'llah) or the sensitive nature of what is depicted (e.g. graphic photos of violence) should be put in appropriately-labeled spoiler tags so that the viewer has freedom to view the image or not. Such images are still subject to normal forum rules and may be moderated depending on their contents.
2)Posts that target a person or group by following them around the forums to attack them. This is Bullying. Deliberately altering the words of another member by intentionally changing the meaning when you use the quote feature is considered a form of bullying. The ONLY acceptable alteration of a quotation from another member is to remove portions that are not relevant or to alter formatting for emphasis.
3)Posts that are adjudged to fit the following profile: "While questioning and challenging other beliefs is appropriate in the debates forums, blatant misrepresentation or harassment of other beliefs will not be tolerated."

8. Preaching/Proselytizing
The forums are not to be used for converting others to your own faith, against any faith, or recruiting people to join one's party, institution, or cause. This includes placing links or copied material from elsewhere intended for this purpose. Posts of this nature will be edited or removed and are subject to moderation.
11. Subverting/Undermining the forum Mission
The purpose of the forum is to provide a civil, informative, respectful and welcoming environment where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate. Posts while debating and discussing different beliefs must be done in the spirit of productivity. If a person's main goal is to undermine a set of beliefs by creating unproductive posts/threads/responses to others, etc, then they will be edited or removed and subject to moderation.
 
Not only did you completely ignore what I said about how Jesus lists them as two separate commandments, you don't understand basic English either.
Well enough to know you have a limited set of replies available to you and none of it from the Bible unless you link to it via an article.

Defraud is not the same as covet.

Thank you for further demonstrating just how bad you are at this.
Prove it, post your references, in fact do that for all your replies from now on.

ἀποστερέω
Transliteration

apostereō

Pronunciation

ä-po-ste-re'-ō (Key)


Part of Speech

verb


Root Word (Etymology)

From ἀπό (G575) and stereo (to deprive)
TDNT Reference

n/a

Vines



Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to defraud, rob, despoil



Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 6
AV — defraud 4, destitute 1, keep back by fraud 1


Transliteration

chamad

Pronunciation

khä·mad' (Key)


Parts of Speech

feminine noun, verb


Root Word (Etymology)

A primitive root
TWOT Reference

673

Outline of Biblical Usage
v
1) to desire, covet, take pleasure in, delight in
a) (Qal) to desire
b) (Niphal) to be desirable
c) (Piel) to delight greatly, desire greatly
n f
2) desirableness, preciousness



Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 21
AV — desire 11, covet 4, delight 2, pleasant 1, beauty 1, lust 1, delectable things 1

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
To covet what another has is to have a desire for something, the things listed need to be acquired by dishonest methods.


You can read by comprehension is seriously lacking on your part.

This has to be the absolutely most hilarious attempt I've seen to justify this concept. You actually think Defraud and covet are the same thing. That's seriously hilarious.

Thank you for demonstrating that you don't even know what "Covet" means.
One leads to the other, something like the way sex and babies are related to each other.

The only thing I'm weeping for is that there are truly people this deluded and incompetent and ignorant as to the basic definitions of basic words that nonetheless require me to take the time to rebut.
I'll bet that is a standard line for you, say you know it all but find some way out where you never have to explain anything in any terms other than this shinning example.

Wow, FURTHER proof that you have no idea not only what you're talking about, but how to read basic English.
List them all . "neither to walk after the customs."
 
By all means, show how that is not supporting my view and instead saying it trashes them. You have absolutely no idea what's going on there.
Waiting .......

Let me spell it out for you:

They are accusing Paul of teaching the Jewish Christians to break the Law of Moses according to a rumor they heard. Did you even read the next few verses? If you're trying to cherry pick, you did a terrible job, do you even understand the implications of what that would indicate even by your leaving it hanging at 21:21? Or do you not want to post 22-24. I already pointed out that verse 25 is likely an interpolation to complement the likely-interpolated Council of Jerusalem episode, and in another thread I provided scholarly claims that support this view.
Now show your 'scholar' is perfect in all his claims, in fact do that for any reference you make via a link.
Why would I care what you posted in a thread I haven't read? Paul or no Apostle ever sacrificed anything live after the cross, a substitute was used, according to OT Law. I never cherry pick, why do it just so somebody can point it out??

Ac:21:26:
Then Paul took the men,
and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple,
to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification,
until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Le:5:11:
But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves,
or two young pigeons,
then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering;
he shall put no oil upon it,
neither shall he put any frankincense thereon:

for it is a sin offering.


This is beyond ridiculous.

AND HE DENIES IT! That's why he takes the Vow. He also denies it as his trial in Jerusalem.
Here is the vow and Paul finished the purification according to OT standards, that doesn't mean any living thing was killed in his case as already pointed out.

You'd be saying that James is wrong otherwise.
I have no idea where you could possibly derive anything other than this.
BTW prove it was James, brother of Jesus. If you want some writing from a brother read Jude.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you have some WACK, I mean WACK interpretations that are like extremely bad wet knots. That's why you have such difficulty getting links to back your views or defending the few times you do like when you quote the dubious Matthew Henry. How am I supposed to explain to you that Acts 21 is explicitly about the Jerusalem Church accusing Paul of teaching to break the Law of Moses based on rumors they had heard.
LOL, so predictable, all your sources are impeccable but all other 'scholars' that challenge your doctrine are idiots. Not a big surprise by any means. Rather sad actually but it is what it is, at least I know vanity is what guides tor thought process.

Total incompetence is the nicest way I could put it what could be the only way you could possibly get this. Would you like to add Acts 21 to our list of 1x1 topics?
More items you will never start let alone complete, how about the mini bible instead, the first and last 3 chapters of the Bible, oh can't do that as that falls under the preaching rule. You know where you post actual verses and explain how they fit into the rest of the book.

So not only do you think coveting and defrauding are the same thing, you think Acts 21, the passage I use to support my own view, somehow supports YOUR view instead?
You have the way to shut me down, define what customs (laws)are referenced in that phrase.

ἔθος
Transliteration

ethos

Pronunciation

e'-thos (Key)


Part of Speech

neuter noun


Root Word (Etymology)

TDNT Reference


Vines



Outline of Biblical Usage
1) custom
2) usage prescribed by law, institute, prescription, rite


Seriously, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Coming from you that would almost be a sign that I was on the right track considering what logical arguments you have made in these two threads, a path I could never actually take btw.

I don't know else to put it without violating rule #1.
Try something easier, refrain from useless comments like this, it may impress you but you are likely the only one.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Waiting .......
Waiting? I'm waiting on you to show me how Acts 21 doesn't support my view.


Now show your 'scholar' is perfect in all his claims, in fact do that for any reference you make via a link.
Why would I care what you posted in a thread I haven't read? Paul or no Apostle ever sacrificed anything live after the cross, a substitute was used, according to OT Law. I never cherry pick, why do it just so somebody can point it out??
You're not even responding to what I said!

Ac:21:26:
Then Paul took the men,
and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple,
to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification,
until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
Right, and as I said, Paul took the vow to deny the charges.

Le:5:11:
But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves,
or two young pigeons,
then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering;
he shall put no oil upon it,
neither shall he put any frankincense thereon:

for it is a sin offering.
You don't even understand the Nazirite vow, that's not the same sacrifice.




Here is the vow and Paul finished the purification according to OT standards, that doesn't mean any living thing was killed in his case as already pointed out.
You're not even on the same page! You have no idea what Acts 21 is even about!


BTW prove it was James, brother of Jesus. If you want some writing from a brother read Jude.
Why don't you prove it was James the brother of Zebedee! The general concensus is that it was James the Just, you will not find ANY scholar who says it was James son of Zebedee. You are alone on this.

This is what I'm talking about, you are on some WACK, seriously WACK interpretations that NO ONE ELSE holds.

LOL, so predictable, all your sources are impeccable but all other 'scholars' that challenge your doctrine are idiots. Not a big surprise by any means. Rather sad actually but it is what it is, at least I know vanity is what guides tor thought process.
I explained that Matthew Henry outright dodges the explicit explanation of the vision. You simply dismissed my sites as wrong and left it at that, I had to press you several times to get a single link. I'm glad you tried at least.

More items you will never start let alone complete, how about the mini bible instead, the first and last 3 chapters of the Bible, oh can't do that as that falls under the preaching rule. You know where you post actual verses and explain how they fit into the rest of the book.
Wow, seriously? You want me to start a 1x1 tonight?




You have the way to shut me down, define what customs (laws)are referenced in that phrase.
You're totally avoiding the fact that defrauding and coveting are not the same thing! Do you really think this is the case?

With that said, Acts 21 explicitly refers to the Mosaic Law when it says "Forsake Moses". What else could it mean? Is that why you didn't list 22-25?

Let me give you a dose of your own logic that actually applies here: Prove that the "Customs" of "Moses" here are NOT the Law in its entirety.




Coming from you that would almost be a sign that I was on the right track considering what logical arguments you have made in these two threads, a path I could never actually take btw.
You're right that you could never actually take the right track, especially when you think that coveting ande defrauding are the same thign and then refuse correction while dismissing other people's sources as wrong without even addressing them and then reading things into the text that aren't there and expecting a verse to disprove something as if you can just disprove a negative like that when you can interpret it any way you want to.

Try something easier, refrain from useless comments like this, it may impress you but you are likely the only one.
You should take your own advice in refraining from useless comments.
 
Last edited:

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Massively interesting. I copied all of your OP so that I can study and take it all in. I must get these Epistles that you quote from. Thankyou

I can add nothing, other than to say that I have always mistrusted Paul, his agenda, His church, the lot.

Well, no-one is forcing you to follow the Bibles that contain the entire NT, if you don't trust the canon, don't follow it

cheers
 
Top